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Drasnighta

Is Kaga too good?

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I've enountered this ship a few times recently and every time it has been bad news for me.

 

I played a game in my Hood today, middle tier with a Kaga on the enemy side. It was clear from the start that this was a competent Kaga player as he took out a full HP Gneisenau early on. Anyway, he came and dropped me with two torpedo squadrons about halfway through the battle. Hood's anti AA consumable helped this time around, so I only took 3 torpedo hits and shot down around 10 planes. However, he came back about a minute or so later while my consumable was on cooldown, just while I was congratulating myself for dodging two Fiji salvos from point-blank range.

 

I didn't shoot down a single plane and ended up taking enough torpedoes to knock off my 50 000 or so HP. Really? Even if I had shot down a few, there would definitely still been enough torpedoes to sink me (I mean, the Hood isn't exactly a small target, but). The Kaga player actually apologised in chat for killing me and freely admitted her found his ship overpowered. He ended the game with over 240k damage (according to himself, may not be reliable) High caliber, Confederate, 3 Devastating Strikes (1 on me, another on a full-HP Gneisenau and the third on a destroyer I think).

 

I've heard from several people that CVs are going to be reworked soon, which sounds good. But the Kaga feels very very strong at the moment (yes, he was a competent CV player and ours was not, but it clearly wasn't just the player).

 

It feels like it should be at T8 for sure.

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Yes, Kaga is by far the most OP carrier in the game. 

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The Kaga might seem powerful, but overall I would rank her just above a Ranger. The fact that the Kaga was able to deal 240k damage is indicative of the competence of your own carrier. Kaga has the easiest plane wing to shoot down at tier 7 whilst maintaining a very strong strike and almost no ability to contest the air war against enemy carriers. If the enemy carrier ignores her, then 240k games will happen but if the allied carrier put the tiniest bit of effort into contesting the air then the Kaga is easy to shut down. The fact that she was able to nuke a Gneisenau, a battleship with notoriously strong AA, is indicative of the fact that your team probably pushed alone instead of in small groups that would have defended against the Kaga's attempts to kill you. The Kaga might well have an excessively strong strike package especially at tier 7, but overall she has too many weaknesses to be called overpowered.

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Obviously there are no "what ifs" in history, but I still have a hunch that if the same CV skipper took out a Hiryu (or just about any carrier - if not with alpha, then with DoT) against the same players, you would have found yourself in an eerily similar situation.

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Kaga is very all or nothing.

 

When the MM gives her low AA and a bad enemy CV then the Kaga is a monster and will nuke anything that takes their fancy.

 

 

However in a hard T9 vs a good enemy CV then Kaga's strike potential falls massively.

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Kaga is a clear sign of bad balance : it can annihilate ships with weak AAA or that are lower tier but struggles against stronger ships.

 

The only thing that limits Kaga now is the abundance of Saipan as it really suffers against that ship and his strong fighters ...

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If players just learned to stay together with their ships to combine AA, nobody would call any CV OP anymore :cap_rambo:

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no because it seems to be balanced by the Saipan (quickly ducks his non CV playing head back into cover to hide from the angry mob) :Smile_hiding:

 

No seriously.

I have seen some Kagas in the very few matches I play with the Rjujo (that was the name of the Tier VI IJN CV right? :Smile_hiding:) and can say from observation (also while playing other ships in MM range) that Kaga is indeed a hit or miss.

Instead of being downright op it just seems to scale so much better with skill. So the problem is the known gap between noob cv players like me and those people actualy good at this.

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51 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

The Kaga might seem powerful, but overall I would rank her just above a Ranger. The fact that the Kaga was able to deal 240k damage is indicative of the competence of your own carrier. Kaga has the easiest plane wing to shoot down at tier 7 whilst maintaining a very strong strike and almost no ability to contest the air war against enemy carriers. If the enemy carrier ignores her, then 240k games will happen but if the allied carrier put the tiniest bit of effort into contesting the air then the Kaga is easy to shut down. The fact that she was able to nuke a Gneisenau, a battleship with notoriously strong AA, is indicative of the fact that your team probably pushed alone instead of in small groups that would have defended against the Kaga's attempts to kill you. The Kaga might well have an excessively strong strike package especially at tier 7, but overall she has too many weaknesses to be called overpowered.

Yeah, the Gneisenau was out by himself I think, though he was on the other side of the map to me.

 

I was with an Amagi, a Kutzuhov and a Benson for most of the game, but the Amagi had definitely been killed off by the time the second wave of Kaga's bombers came after me.

 

 

Well, our CV was literally so bad the Kaga had the skies all to himself. That's the issue I have with CVs, it's the fact that if your CV is awful you're already at a huge huge disadvantage.

 

And I'm saying this as a fairly new player.

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1 hour ago, Corvi said:

Yes, Kaga is by far the most OP carrier in the game. 

Would agree if there wasnt a ship called Saipan.

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18 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Yeah, the Gneisenau was out by himself I think, though he was on the other side of the map to me.

I was with an Amagi, a Kutzuhov and a Benson for most of the game, but the Amagi had definitely been killed off by the time the second wave of Kaga's bombers came after me.

 

Well, our CV was literally so bad the Kaga had the skies all to himself. That's the issue I have with CVs, it's the fact that if your CV is awful you're already at a huge huge disadvantage.

And I'm saying this as a fairly new player.

Well that much is a problem with the Kaga really. The Kaga is a bully. She struggles against fighting enemies on equal grounds, but she can ruthlessly exploit enemy weaknesses. Of all the tier 7 carriers, she's probably the easiest to counter as she is really built on the assumption that she will be bombing battleships. To answer your question, the Kaga really isn't too good. I'm assuming that the enemy Kaga you had was a Unicum. If that player was commanding the Hiryu or potentially even the Saipan, you would have lost a destroyer in the first few minutes of the game instead of a Genisenau and your team would have lost sooner. The fact that the game went on long enough for the Kaga to rack up 240k damage in fact tells us that the Kaga's owner was not able to exploit the difference in carrier skill gap as brutally as that player would have in a better carrier. With a 60:40 win rate gap which is common for the types of game you are describing, it isn't rare for a carrier to get at most 2-3 strikes in before the game is over. To the untrained eye, the higher average damage of the Kaga might seem like she's overpowered but it is quite often the opposite. The Kaga is simply not as decisive as the other tier 7 carriers are.

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1 hour ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

If players just learned to stay together with their ships to combine AA, nobody would call any CV OP anymore :cap_rambo:

 

This is the routine statement of CV apologists who just want to keep blapping people with their OP CV's. It's complete nonsense.

 

You know perfectly well that in a Random it's impossible to form AA groups, hell it's hard enough to get people to head to the same Cap zone let alone get them to cooperate against air strikes. 

 

CV's are completely unbalanced in the game and excessively dominant unless their players are really closely matched in skill.

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Vor 4 Minuten, BeauNidl3 sagte:

 

This is the routine statement of CV apologists who just want to keep blapping people with their OP CV's. It's complete nonsense.

 

You know perfectly well that in a Random it's impossible to form AA groups, hell it's hard enough to get people to head to the same Cap zone let alone get them to cooperate against air strikes. 

 

CV's are completely unbalanced in the game and excessively dominant unless their players are really closely matched in skill.

And the only stupid argument you got is "you say it all the time"?

Well, of course we say it all the time, because it's damn true. Just because you are too stupid to do it, doesn't mean it's impossible.

 

What CV haters like you forget all the time is: We CV players play other classes too. We are not like you who only fixate on a few classes and therefore never learn the weaknesses of the other classes.

And we know how easy it can be to counter a CV with teamplay.

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8 minutes ago, BeauNidl3 said:

 

This is the routine statement of CV apologists who just want to keep blapping people with their OP CV's. It's complete nonsense.

 

You know perfectly well that in a Random it's impossible to form AA groups, hell it's hard enough to get people to head to the same Cap zone let alone get them to cooperate against air strikes. 

 

CV's are completely unbalanced in the game and excessively dominant unless their players are really closely matched in skill.

Even if Cornflake is a CV apologist which I'd say he isn't, it is not a fault of the game balance that people have the inability to form decent groups to overlap AA bubbles.

 

That's a fault purely at the player base. Don't people learn from trial and error? Get nuked by a CV whilst alone should easily encourage people stick together, someone doesn't even need to be particularly bright to understand that...

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26 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

And the only stupid argument you got is "you say it all the time"?

Well, of course we say it all the time, because it's damn true. Just because you are too stupid to do it, doesn't mean it's impossible.

 

What CV haters like you forget all the time is: We CV players play other classes too. We are not like you who only fixate on a few classes and therefore never learn the weaknesses of the other classes.

And we know how easy it can be to counter a CV with teamplay.

 

Predictably you resort to insults rather than any type of reasoned debate, but having seen your other posts it's to be expected.

The argument wasn't that you trot that out all the time (even though you do) so maybe take a look in a mirror before calling other people stupid, but that in Randoms it's not practical to form AA groups outside of a division and even then it can be tricky to stick together under ship fire even if all division members are in the same class so fight at the same range. Additionally after some HE spam many ships have very little AA left to counter the CV that you can't even hit because he's hidden at the back with a minuscule spotting range and no gun blooms.

I know enough good CV players to be aware it's not easy to master CV play, but the excessive influence of someone who has is completely unbalanced in what is a surface ship game, especially if the opposing CV isn't as good.

 

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25 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

 

That's a fault purely at the player base. Don't people learn from trial and error? Get nuked by a CV whilst alone should easily encourage people stick together, someone doesn't even need to be particularly bright to understand that...

Personally whenever Im in a game with CV, I look to see how much of a threat it is to me (can I just turn into the drop like you would in a DD vs a langley, or can I just shred its planes with my AA?).

 

Next I look at how much of a threat it is to the rest of my team - will they be able to deal with it on their own?

 

Then I look at how likely I am to be the chosen target - am I in a vunerable destroyer, or am I going to be the thing avoided at all costs?

 

Then I look where friendlies are deployed if I/an ally needs help dealing with CV

 

Based on those then determines if I sail off on my own, sail near an ally to protect myself, or sail near an ally to help protect them

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And when the captain has CE and if the ship has concealment module? Plus where do CV's almost always sit?

 

Additionally didn't one of the CV experts post the Air detection range on many ships is meaningless as no aircraft is capable of spotting past 11km?  Oh and no gun bloom obviously.

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3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I've enountered this ship a few times recently and every time it has been bad news for me.

 

I played a game in my Hood today, middle tier with a Kaga on the enemy side. It was clear from the start that this was a competent Kaga player as he took out a full HP Gneisenau early on. Anyway, he came and dropped me with two torpedo squadrons about halfway through the battle. Hood's anti AA consumable helped this time around, so I only took 3 torpedo hits and shot down around 10 planes. However, he came back about a minute or so later while my consumable was on cooldown, just while I was congratulating myself for dodging two Fiji salvos from point-blank range.

 

I didn't shoot down a single plane and ended up taking enough torpedoes to knock off my 50 000 or so HP. Really? Even if I had shot down a few, there would definitely still been enough torpedoes to sink me (I mean, the Hood isn't exactly a small target, but). The Kaga player actually apologised in chat for killing me and freely admitted her found his ship overpowered. He ended the game with over 240k damage (according to himself, may not be reliable) High caliber, Confederate, 3 Devastating Strikes (1 on me, another on a full-HP Gneisenau and the third on a destroyer I think).

 

I've heard from several people that CVs are going to be reworked soon, which sounds good. But the Kaga feels very very strong at the moment (yes, he was a competent CV player and ours was not, but it clearly wasn't just the player).

 

It feels like it should be at T8 for sure.

Yes and no....kaga is strong in alpha but she is compensate with slow and low health planes that other cv have no problem stoping, or same tier ship with good AAA and on t 7 there are ships with solid AAA...mostly BBs .....i know it is funny that BBs have most AAA prrotection on t7 tier

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1 hour ago, Negativvv said:

Even if Cornflake is a CV apologist which I'd say he isn't, it is not a fault of the game balance that people have the inability to form decent groups to overlap AA bubbles.

 

That's a fault purely at the player base. Don't people learn from trial and error? Get nuked by a CV whilst alone should easily encourage people stick together, someone doesn't even need to be particularly bright to understand that...

 

But then, in the case of a T7 CV, the lower tier ships don't have the AA power to make a difference, and what they do have is mostly short range self defence as well.

 

I mean Gniesenau has 289 base dpm and with captain skills and modules can put out up to 300 dpm out to 7.2 km, what use is an extra 15 dpm at 4km from a La Gall or 20 dpm out to 4.5 km from an Aoba?  Even most of the T7 cruisers have pretty minimal long range AA.

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If we assume equal skill (who unfortunately rarely happens when we're talking about cv), the more both players are skilled, the less kaga is effective.

 

I have a Kaga and, while i consider myself merely average at cv (worse than average in fighters duels, slightly better in manual drops and spotting for team), i can make her work because of their insane alpha strike, you can oneshot anything at tier 5-6 and a lot of ships at tier 7.

 

Most important thing is (that's part of the reason because her winrate is so high imho):

 

Even if enemy cv (saipan) manage to outplay you, there's always the possibility that your team overwhelm enemy, because Saipan don't have a huge strikepower. 

 

 

If you are an above average cv player driving Kaga there's only a couple of things that can potentially stop you

 

1- A super Unicum playing saipan in division (hiryu also can do something)

2- Tier 9 heavy match with few to none dds and a lot of american bbs.

 

 

From a game balance point, Kaga should have been made a tier 8 with tier 7 planes. Better AA plus Worse MM could have mitigated her power.

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2 hours ago, Negativvv said:

Don't people learn from trial and error?

 

Nope. Well, in real life sure. And in other games too. But in world of warships - definitely not :Smile_amazed:. It gets more frustrating, when you inform your team at the start of the round of a very skilled enemy CV, and give them friendly advise, what would be a good counter to not die instantly.

 

I also agree very much with @NoirLotus. I think, his conclusion about the Kaga is spot on.

 

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2 hours ago, BeauNidl3 said:

You know perfectly well that in a Random it's impossible to form AA groups, hell it's hard enough to get people to head to the same Cap zone let alone get them to cooperate against air strikes. 

 

Then please, why should CVs be dependent on teamplay? After all if your goal is to remove that aspect of the game then CVs must be made capable of striking and killing every ship regardless of the concentration of AA power.

You either go both ways or you don't.

 

Besides, nowadays it's far easier to deny the enemy CV than it ever was in the past. Even just sticking to one more ship is often enough. Sure, it won't win you any games if the majority of your team runs for the map border, but then you've never deserved to win that game anyway. This is a team game whether you like it or not.

 

To go back on topic:

Kaga is overpowered. Kaga is also hilariously weak at the same time. She's everything a CV should NOT be.

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10 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Nope. Well, in real life sure. And in other games too. But in world of warships - definitely not :Smile_amazed:. It gets more frustrating, when you inform your team at the start of the round of a very skilled enemy CV, and give them friendly advise, what would be a good counter to not die instantly.

 

I also agree very much with @NoirLotus. I think, his conclusion about the Kaga is spot on.

 

Urgh the amount of reports I get in my Lex and I specifically tell my team that I have ONE fighter group and can't be everywhere.

 

I still get the blame when they get bombed alone...

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3 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

If players just learned to stay together with their ships to combine AA, nobody would call any CV OP anymore :cap_rambo:

 

Basically this. 

I've had multiple battles where the enemy team was sailing together in 2-3 "blobs", and I simply couldn't strike them.

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