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wilkatis_LV

Giulio Cesare AP Fuse changes explained

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Since there always is a lot of crying about every change to BBs (either by BBs about nerfs or from everyone else about any kind of buffs) I'd expect this one not to be an exception. So let me try to be ahead of it and actually explain why.

 

As it happens - just a few days ago I was researching how AP fuses work, and so I have a pretty good idea how this change came to be.

 

1st of all - yeah, as little as it might be it is a buff to an already heavily OverPerforming BB.

Spoiler

pLR9pHl.png

SVWq3xf.png

7oOFCtJ.png

Np10FQl.png

Less armour to arm the fuse means more penetrations and less overpens, especially on lightly armoured ships (probably mainly cruisers for main batteries, DDs for secondaries). That can not be denied, but that's not the point.

 

So the change in question:

Xamt5H4.png

 

Since there is no mention of "AP fusing" in-game your best bet is to check Wiki - and surprisingly enough it's actually mentioned there (under "Gunnery & Armour penetration")

I6izBKW.png

 

GC has 320mm main battery guns 120mm AP firing secondaries  - both values are not among those 4 given.

Of course, we can try to see if there is any easily noticeable correlation between them by plugging those values into a graph:

1CrJDzG.png

 

There we get a linear progression by which we can calculate the armour thickness necessary to arm your AP shell fuses.

 

There comes a little sidenote I was informed about while talking to Game Mechanics Support

ovE8xPd.png

 

This standardization has been going on since 0.3.1 as mentioned wiki (keep in mind game went live over 2 years ago with patch 0.5.2 - so this is started either in Alpha or Closed Beta testing) and apparently it's still not quite done.

Also during that conversation we ended up with the "best guess" being that those values are subject to normal rounding.

 

So, now if we plug in GCs gun calibers in the formula we end up with:

  • 0.1644 * 320 + 0.5647 = 53.17 ≈ 53mm
  • 0.1644 * 120 + 0.5647 = 20.29 ≈ 20mm

Both of which happen to be the exact values they are being changed to.

 

So the

EdqPjFr.png

is correct (altho that noticeable or not part could be debated)

 


 

So the better question(s) would be:

 

@MrConway Seeing how GC is one of the newest BBs in the game how comes it didn't already have correct fusing values at its introduction? And why is this standardization taking well over 2 years to fully implement?

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BBs need to be stronger clearly.

 

Was funny how GC was broken OP on first WiP testing with gun accuracy. Then that got nerfed and was released in a strong state anyway 

 

WG then gave her probably the strongest TDS of any mid tier BB and now an improved ability to kill Cruisers and DD. Maybe the shorter fuse time will suck vs BB?

 

 

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2 Negativv - Do you have GC ??  man from 10 fights all 10 was vs t7, yesterday I was in division with 2 t6 and ofc got vs T8 MM and main T8 was US CV T8 -- needless to say that he killed me on sight, I was around 2 min in fight...

 

So I can say that all T7 ship is OP because from the 10 fights 8 will be vs t5  so ........   

 

He is OP when you got vs t4 - which I never got !!!  and that is a question if he is because it is very close to Orion performance and Orion will never have game above vs T5 so I would say that Orion is about 2-3 more OP than GC...

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8 minutes ago, Cime said:

2 Negativv - Do you have GC ??  man from 10 fights all 10 was vs t7, yesterday I was in division with 2 t6 and ofc got vs T8 MM and main T8 was US CV T8 -- needless to say that he killed me on sight, I was around 2 min in fight...

 

So I can say that all T7 ship is OP because from the 10 fights 8 will be vs t5  so ........   

 

He is OP when you got vs t4 - which I never got !!!  and that is a question if he is because it is very close to Orion performance and Orion will never have game above vs T5 so I would say that Orion is about 2-3 more OP than GC...

Gc is not a tier 5 bb... it easily qualifies as tier 6.5 or something.

 

And please don't complain about bbs being uptiered. Especially gc, just look at wilkatis numbers how much it is being played.

 

"Op when versus t4" omfg.

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19 minutes ago, Cime said:

2 Negativv - Do you have GC ??  man from 10 fights all 10 was vs t7, yesterday I was in division with 2 t6 and ofc got vs T8 MM and main T8 was US CV T8 -- needless to say that he killed me on sight, I was around 2 min in fight...

 

So I can say that all T7 ship is OP because from the 10 fights 8 will be vs t5  so ........   

 

He is OP when you got vs t4 - which I never got !!!  and that is a question if he is because it is very close to Orion performance and Orion will never have game above vs T5 so I would say that Orion is about 2-3 more OP than GC...

You don't compare ship performance with the MM it gets...

You compare ship with the other ships of the same tier. And the conclusion is that GC is stupidly strong for a tier V BB.

 

I may be a die-hard Kongou fan, GC is objectively better.

 

According to your logic, KGV is balanced because it fight tier 9. According to my experience with it, KGV is completely broken, a disgustingly OP ship. And even worse it's actually fun to play.

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9 minutes ago, Cime said:

2 Negativv - Do you have GC ??  man from 10 fights all 10 was vs t7, yesterday I was in division with 2 t6 and ofc got vs T8 MM and main T8 was US CV T8 -- needless to say that he killed me on sight, I was around 2 min in fight...

 

So I can say that all T7 ship is OP because from the 10 fights 8 will be vs t5  so ........   

 

He is OP when you got vs t4 - which I never got !!!  and that is a question if he is because it is very close to Orion performance and Orion will never have game above vs T5 so I would say that Orion is about 2-3 more OP than GC...

A ship is not OP because it's on a tier that often gets uptiered. Brilliant logic.

Also, the ~60% winrate it gets is probably some kind of a trick by Warships Today, they secretly found a way to only take into account the matches where GC is top tier, right?

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When I drive GC myself, I feel that it is just consistent and not OP.

At low tiers you see mostly broadsides, so a consistent BB can feel stupidly strong, while it is actually just bad enemies. 

The HE firechance is way too good though... Tier-for-Tier higher than on Conqueror. 

 

But when I tried to hit a GC at range in my Hood (which doesn't have consistent gunnery), I realized what a super small target the GC is. 

 

That size combined with the crazy HE firechance makes GC crazy good in T7 MM and probably indeed OP. 

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10 minutes ago, eliastion said:

A ship is not OP because it's on a tier that often gets uptiered. Brilliant logic.

That logic would be useful in that my marblehead or hipper are brokenly underpowered.  please move to tier 3, tier 6 respectively, wg.

 

Much appreciated!

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2 hours ago, Negativvv said:

BBs need to be stronger clearly.

 

Was funny how GC was broken OP on first WiP testing with gun accuracy. Then that got nerfed and was released in a strong state anyway 

 

WG then gave her probably the strongest TDS of any mid tier BB and now an improved ability to kill Cruisers and DD. Maybe the shorter fuse time will suck vs BB?

 

 

The TDS buff to GC was completely unfounded, ship was already clearly OverPerforming

 

And no, armour necessary to arm fuse works just one way - as soon as you reach it your shell arms. The only section on BBs where this would be a real question - supersturcture, and low tier BBs tend to have very little of it. Of course, hitting a very flat side may be too thin for that fuse to arm, but that's more of a "if then" case.

 

BB armour generally is thick enough, meanwhile for a thinner target with less armour to arm the fuse you need to angle it less for a pen.

 

Here's a graph of armour and their minimal penetration angles that GC needs to score a successful pen (could have ignored the last 6 or whatever degrees due to normalization but doesn't matter). That gap in the middle is where GC would autobunce before arming the AP fuse (59° is 27mm, and then can overmatch anything up to 22mm which is at 65°)

 

JQFlhmU.png

 

40 minutes ago, Cime said:

from 10 fights all 10 was vs t7

And its WR, as well as personal anecdotal experience, show that it performs more than good enough

 

40 minutes ago, Cime said:

it is very close to Orion performance

2 weeks: Orion is behind in WR by 3.85%, 8438 in DMG, by 0.3 in K/D, by 5% in survivability, and by 4% in hitrate

1 week: Orion is behind in WR by 4.45%, 11 679 in DMG, by 0.4 in K/D, by 4% in survivability, and by 4% in hitrate

"Yesterday": Orion is behind in WR by 6.41%, 14 145 in DMG, by 0.4 in K/D, by 3% in survivability, and by 6% in hitrate

 

Same thing, absolutely

 

 

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44 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Also, the ~60% winrate it gets is probably some kind of a trick by Warships Today, they secretly found a way to only take into account the matches where GC is top tier, right?

 

Have just been fooling around in my GC,  and after 124 games with many T7 matches, it is sitting at 71.77%.

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JC, does any of member didn't answer :)   

when you say for some BB that is not OP you will get about 25 replay in about 20 min :) 

 

I didn't say that it is not OP for T5, I said that if you play 80% od 2T up with him that it is hardly T5 ship, That way you could say That Atago, Tirpitz, Loyang are also OP but when you will see MM it gets in random ( or like you looking at WR of server for him - don't know why ) you will say ooo no it is not OP but you didn't take into account that cpt points or lack of it on GC and on Tirpitz is total difference because a lot of newbes will buy premium nor knowing crap about him and will get into account od WR you like to watch and playing with 3 skill point cpt on GC will be ok while playing with 3 point skill cpt on Tirpitz or Loyang will result in fatal result from it -- but if you put 15 pt cpt on all 3 than performance will be that all of them are OP for the tier they are ...

 

And btw I like to play cruisers not BBs so calling me BBaby or cry BBaby   plz  ,, and by far for me Scharnhorst is than 5x OP to GC because in like at least 70% of battles you will be against him 

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GC is a monster. Could have been tweaked for T6 which would likely have stopped any OP talk but at T5 she's hugely powerful.

 

Can AP everyone unless it's a T7 BB then you can just go crispy vs them.

 

I believe GC even steers better than the Warspite and is fast for a T5 BB.

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1 minute ago, Negativvv said:

Can AP everyone unless it's a T7 BB then you can just go crispy vs them.

 

And this is actually the only problem with the ship. 

 

If it had a normal firechance, 90% of players would suck in it. 

 

But no, WG had to make it a mini conqueror... 

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3 hours ago, Negativvv said:

Maybe the shorter fuse time will suck vs BB?

 

 

 

Alas, this is a 100% beneficial change with no downsides at all as it's the fuze sensitivity rather than the fuze time.

 

So it'll still citpen BBs with ease, only now it will overpen that much less.
Fun fun fun.

 

1 hour ago, Cime said:

2 Negativv - Do you have GC ??  man from 10 fights all 10 was vs t7, yesterday I was in division with 2 t6 and ofc got vs T8 MM and main T8 was US CV T8 -- needless to say that he killed me on sight, I was around 2 min in fight...

 

So I can say that all T7 ship is OP because from the 10 fights 8 will be vs t5  so ........   

 

He is OP when you got vs t4 - which I never got !!!  and that is a question if he is because it is very close to Orion performance and Orion will never have game above vs T5 so I would say that Orion is about 2-3 more OP than GC...

 

I do.
I could literally go into a T7 match with an HP boost, extra AA and a 25mm bow and feel more comfortable in it than a Nagato.

 

It's ridiculously good.
I started it at a staggering 90% WR with 90k damage before messing around with division mates that aren't very good at the game, and dragging it down to a "mere" 64% WR with 78k damage.
At T5. As a 57% WR aboveaveragebob.

 

I can't even do that with the faceroll Fuso...

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18 minutes ago, Cime said:

or like you looking at WR of server for him - don't know why

Because over hundreds / thousands of games by all kinds of players it pretty accurately shows how the ship is performing?

 

20 minutes ago, Cime said:

you will say ooo no it is not OP but you didn't take into account that cpt points or lack of it on GC

Texas. Revolution. All 4 ARP Kongos. All of them can use captains from other ships - like all premiums do. And there's a good chance people are running 19pt cmdrs in Texas and Kongos as the oldest BB lines.

Yet all of them are 50 to 55% WR, not 60% like GC. See the difference?

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5 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

And this is actually the only problem with the ship. 

 

If it had a normal firechance, 90% of players would suck in it. 

 

But no, WG had to make it a mini conqueror... 

Yeah there's no reason why HE can't be effective. It's just that AP can be even better. Funny how the guns slay anything at T5 with ease. T4 MM is even funnier.

 

The power of GC makes her feel like a T5 Amagi for me.

1 hour ago, Cime said:

2 Negativv - Do you have GC ??  man from 10 fights all 10 was vs t7, yesterday I was in division with 2 t6 and ofc got vs T8 MM and main T8 was US CV T8 -- needless to say that he killed me on sight, I was around 2 min in fight...

 

So I can say that all T7 ship is OP because from the 10 fights 8 will be vs t5  so ........   

 

I do have a GC, my average damage is something obscene like 80k+... 

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For your information, changes are/were:

320 mm: 55 to 52

120 mm: 25 to 20

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4 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Because over hundreds / thousands of games by all kinds of players it pretty accurately shows how the ship is performing?

 

Texas. Revolution. All 4 ARP Kongos. All of them can use captains from other ships - like all premiums do. And there's a good chance people are running 19pt cmdrs in Texas and Kongos as the oldest BB lines.

Yet all of them are 50 to 55% WR, not 60% like GC. See the difference?

 

 

over how many battles are those results on Kongos, texas ??  and over how many for GC  -- and it is safe to say that GC is better ship than Revolucia bcs Revolucia was free and GC is dublon only - so Revolucia is played by many potato+unicom while GC is played by many good players .. 

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7 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

@MrConway Seeing how GC is one of the newest BBs in the game how comes it didn't already have correct fusing values at its introduction? And why is this standardization taking well over 2 years to fully implement?

 

It was actually just a bugged value that we noticed was not in line with what it should have been, not part of any other standardization effort. 

 

We really do not expect it to have any impact on the ship's performance.

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4 minutes ago, MrConway said:

We really do not expect it to have any impact on the ship's performance.

 

Do you know the balancing departments opinion on its performance? 

 

I was surprised to see it in the techtree and as a gift ship, since it could easily have been the new Nikolai with that HE firechance. 

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Only question I have for WG is what's left to buff?

 

Defensive AA?

 

Speed Boost?

 

Super Heal?

 

:cap_cool:

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1 hour ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

When I drive GC myself, I feel that it is just consistent and not OP.

At low tiers you see mostly broadsides, so a consistent BB can feel stupidly strong, while it is actually just bad enemies. 

The HE firechance is way too good though... Tier-for-Tier higher than on Conqueror. 

 

But when I tried to hit a GC at range in my Hood (which doesn't have consistent gunnery), I realized what a super small target the GC is. 

 

That size combined with the crazy HE firechance makes GC crazy good in T7 MM and probably indeed OP. 

I look at my GC stats and they are simular to my other premiums. At t5 only battles, GC is darn good vs kongos but higher gun calibres like new york have no problem with me either.

 

One other reason is, that people play with GC like a BB should= advance, close in the distance and fire away. 

 

You cant do long range battle with GC, its got terrible dispersion. So with 28knt you get in closer...and you realize your teammates are dumb because all they do with Bbs is sniping

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33 minutes ago, Cime said:

over how many battles are those results on Kongos, texas ??  and over how many for GC  -- and it is safe to say that GC is better ship than Revolucia bcs Revolucia was free and GC is dublon only - so Revolucia is played by many potato+unicom while GC is played by many good players .. 

Ahh, so more expensive = less potatoes and more unicums playing it. Gosh dang, I thought Derpitz is infested with potatoes, turns out it's so horrible unicums constantly do the dumbest things you can imagine while playing it!

 

Anyhow, congratulations - you have the worst GC stats I've ever seen! Now that has to have had some effort to pull it off with that ship.

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14 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

Only question I have for WG is what's left to buff?

 

Defensive AA?

 

Speed Boost?

 

Super Heal?

 

:cap_cool:

 

GC has 60% already meaning that even potatoes are doing well in it. Hell, at that point why not just give it everything - after all if Kamikaze lands 5 of her 6 torps she can still kill GC in one torp salvo!

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1 minute ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

GC has 60% already meaning that even potatoes are doing well in it. Hell, at that point why not just give it everything - after all if Kamikaze lands 5 of her 6 torps she can still kill GC in one torp salvo!

60%?

 

That's given me an idea, GC can be the first BB with 60% TDS. Then she might survive a Kami strike.

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