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Parakitteh

Co-Op Battle revamp?

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I see a lot of people saying that newer players like myself should spend more time in Co-Op Battle to learn the mechanics and tactics before spending more time in Random Battle, particularly when you get to Tier V and the end of preferential MM.

 

Co-Op Battle as-is, I don't feel offers a suitable challenge or opportunity for players to really learn if they have a basic grasp of the mechanics already. The small team sizes (what is it, 7v7?) and limited intelligence of the bots doesn't allow players to get to grips with leading fast, manoeuvring targets or players with a good grasp of angling and map control.

Not to mention, skilled players in Co-Op Battle just seem to dominate the game anyway, meaning that players trying to learn a new ship or new playstyle don't really have a chance to practice against anything.

 

A tweak - or at least an optional mode within Co-Op Battle - could be made here.

Expand the lobbies to 24 "player" like regular MM, but imbalanced teams. Potentially, 8v16 or 9v15

The additional 6-8 enemy ships would allow more targets for all players, pose more of a challenge for the team overall, and probably a decent chance for people to experiment more, without taking too many more players out of the queue for Random. Or, "players" are restricted to 7, with the enemy team to 15 and two bots on the greens.

 

Thoughts?

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For new players Co-Op really should only be used to "learn the basics of the game" i.e. how to shoot, steer, use torps etc upto T3 at most (T4 for CV's), but ideally they should be jumping in PvP by as early as possible to "learn how to play the game" instead of "Learning the basics".

 

Expanded Co-Op Teams - They trialled it about a year ago with 8 players vs 12+ bots in either a normal game or a "humans in the middle, bots surround them" mode and, while it worked at lower tiers, it was a failure at higher tiers and they scrapped it after a month or so. However, Operations now seem to have taken over instead so you get 8 players vs dozens of bots in waves in most of the Ops but now there's objectives you have to carry out to be successful. Give them a go, they're pretty good.

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I would advise you just stick to the lower tiers, taking each line to T5 max, until you feel you can hold your own. That way you can survive long enough to learn the game and you also get to know the strengths and weaknesses of each line. Don't move into the higher tiers until you feel you can comfortably hold your own in any engagement. Don't think I am being elitist, or anything, it's what I did and I found it worked very well.

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3 hours ago, IanH755 said:

For new players Co-Op really should only be used to "learn the basics of the game" i.e. how to shoot, steer, use torps etc upto T3 at most (T4 for CV's), but ideally they should be jumping in PvP by as early as possible to "learn how to play the game" instead of "Learning the basics".

 

Expanded Co-Op Teams - They trialled it about a year ago with 8 players vs 12+ bots in either a normal game or a "humans in the middle, bots surround them" mode and, while it worked at lower tiers, it was a failure at higher tiers and they scrapped it after a month or so. However, Operations now seem to have taken over instead so you get 8 players vs dozens of bots in waves in most of the Ops but now there's objectives you have to carry out to be successful. Give them a go, they're pretty good.

Yes but it is only 1 at a time with a specific tier( I assume solo play). I would have liked the Wave approach in Coop, where let us say after 8 vs 8 another 8 came after some minutes so they not are coming at the same time, on higher tiers maybe 6 + 6 in 2 Waves as these games tends to be more difficult. I rarely play coop but I sometimes try it in a new ship or when experimenting.

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Yeah the strict limits of "only 1 tier" and "only Op of the week" for single players on Operations are a hassle which I'd like to see removed.

 

I mean the game see's +/- 2 tiers from T6 onwards so I'd be happy with Ops doing the same and allowing the current T6 Ops to use T5-T7 and the current T7 Op to use T6-T8. Plus all the Ops should be available so that people from T5-8 (the most numerous in the game) can play Ops.

 

However I would suggest a reduction in XP (not credits) if we are allowed to play all the different Ops at the same time as the XP is a little high compared to Co-Op as a mode, unless WG decided to make Co-Op T1-T4 only (as a training tool) and T5+ Co-Op became Ops only!

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15 hours ago, xxNihilanxx said:

I would advise you just stick to the lower tiers, taking each line to T5 max, until you feel you can hold your own. That way you can survive long enough to learn the game and you also get to know the strengths and weaknesses of each line. Don't move into the higher tiers until you feel you can comfortably hold your own in any engagement. Don't think I am being elitist, or anything, it's what I did and I found it worked very well.

This is abundantly sensible advice.

 

I would mention, though, that there is often significant pressure to play at higher tiers than one really should - for example, if you wanted to do the most recent campaigns, you pretty much had to play PvP in higher tiers (and T6 at a minimum).

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9 minutes ago, IanH755 said:

mean the game see's +/- 2 tiers from T6 onwards so I'd be happy with Ops doing the same and allowing the current T6 Ops to use T5-T7 and the current T7 Op to use T6-T8. Plus all the Ops should be available so that people from T5-8 (the most numerous in the game) can play Ops.

 

Originally ops allowed T5 + T6, but they limited it to T6 once players complained.

 

It's not really fair on the rest of your team to bring T5 ships in place of T7 once.

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True but originally you faced a larger number of higher tier Bots, where as now you mainly face T4-5 bots with a few T7's when playing a T6 Op, but thats just an opinion.

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I'll just quote myself then:

On 2018-01-15 at 9:29 PM, nimlock said:

Would get boring fast, because there arent that many ships till t3. I would opt for a equipment check by the bots in pve instead and some hard caped averange exp per battle requrement in that ship. Taking the averanging win rate from all battles played would only lead to stats padding in low tiers to play in higher tiers which is allreaddy a problem due statpaders allreaddy doing this.

What people expect from onthers in randoms:

1. Either full decked out ship with tomato skill or stock ship knowing how to stay alive and shooting.

2. Co-op is the place to statpad dmg on target dummies, and there is allways room for improvement on aim and dps output, be it pve or pvp.

3. A game design reason with rewards or a self imbued one to perform better than the rest. Dealing the most dps, taking the most objectives, stealing kills and planing ahead how to be as eficient as possible adds to map awarenes even in co-op.

So tl;dr co-op is for casual, non-commitment gameplay, randoms and ranked are. You are there to prove something - your WR% stats change, you earn medals there, so show some effort or dont bother joining and ruining other peoples expereinces

Btw: you will get flamed at either way, so it's up to your own judgement to evaluate the critic you get and if you respond - you care. Me, i'm a self entitled f*** that stays silent and atempts doing his best, because immersing myself in the text battle durning a bullet exchange is to bothersome. There are signals for that and even then, sheep herding is a job like carrying a game almost solo is to; playing 2-3 hours after your reall job doesnt necesserly motivate you to work for your fun in your free time. Played few years eve online, quit that job. 20 min is the best ammount of time i can give the team my full commitment.

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17 hours ago, IanH755 said:

For new players Co-Op really should only be used to "learn the basics of the game" i.e. how to shoot, steer, use torps etc upto T3 at most (T4 for CV's),

 

I would suggest new CV players learn to manual attack in Coop (at T6).

Way too many CV players are just autodropping, or seem to never have heard of strafing.

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I'd actually make "Right Click Attacks" like Manual Drops and Strafing into a Tutorial.

 

I'd also make a tutorial for each new "ship type", so one at T2 for DD's and torps, one at T3 for BB's with AP vs HE and one at T4 for CV's.

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18 hours ago, Parakitteh said:

I see a lot of people saying that newer players like myself should spend more time in Co-Op Battle to learn the mechanics and tactics before spending more time in Random Battle, particularly when you get to Tier V and the end of preferential MM.

Unfortunately, people who say things like these are generally expressing their frustration rather than giving sound advice. In reality bot battles aren't a good training environment. There are some things that can be learned there, but - especially if someone plays only or mostly coop - it's also extremely easy to pick up some bad habits that are going to hinder you in PvP.

Coop can help you with some basics: gunnery with various guns, basics of alt-attacks for CVs - both ignore normal human reactions to the threat, however, so if you expect to get good results after you learn strafing in coop, you'll be in for a nasty surprise when meeting any REMOTELY competent opponent.

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Co-op is a waste of time imho. You gain nothing playing Co-op. You gain barely any xp or credits, and learning? You learn nothing in Co-op. Not even the basics. Just to shoot with the guns and launch torpedoes. That's it, nothing more. Operations? You need to have Tier 6 ships to play operations, but even then you can't play operations because it forces you to make divisions. Most of the new players who have max 1 Tier 6 ship can't play it because at low tiers they have no one to platoon with. Honestly who is going to join you (fairly new player) in division to play tier 6 Operations when a lot of players now are at Tier 8 -10? And you have to consider the fact that not everyone is available all the time to play in division. Not to mention not everyone wants to play in divisions. Some players just like this type of "solo warrior" thing.

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On 17/01/2018 at 6:23 AM, xScoundrelx said:

Co-op is a waste of time imho. You gain nothing playing Co-op.

 

I would suggest that YOU currently gain nothing as, with only 260+ games played, Co-Op really isn't meant for you right now as you should be concentrating on learning the game by playing Random. However, more experienced players can have a lot of fun playing Co-Op.

 

So once you've got a whole bunch more games played (say 1000+), got past T8 and started to get sick of the stupidity of other players (it will happen), Co-Op is a great way to blow off some steam or as Stress Relief during a weekend. Having 2-3 Bismarcks brawling at 5km is a wonderful sight which very rarely happens in Random yet 75% of T8 Co-Op matches are like that, as the bots don't hang back sniping like humans, so if you also play very aggressively, Co-Op can be hugely enjoyable.

 

On 17/01/2018 at 6:23 AM, xScoundrelx said:

You gain barely any xp or credits

 

Again, while YOU don't, others do :Smile_glasses:

 

wows422.jpg

 

wows401.jpg

 

On 17/01/2018 at 6:23 AM, xScoundrelx said:

Operations? You need to have Tier 6 ships to play operations, but even then you can't play operations because it forces you to make divisions.

 

You can play the "Operation of the Week" without being in a division. Currently the Op is the T6 "Killer Whale" which you can play alone or, as you rightly stated, you can join a division for the other 5 Ops. Remember that the "single player"  Operation changes weekly so there's 6 weeks of Ops you can play alone, one of which is even T7 (Ultimate Frontier) and, if played well, can be very rewarding -  

 

wows399.jpg

 

 

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Co-op is awful the bots are predictable and I'm not just talking about the players they end so quick due to DDs growing a pair and torping everything site they do nothing to teach you about the basics of the game as you never get enough time in them , I fully agree what the op says.

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@IanH755 Yes I am new to the game and might not know many things about this game.  And yes i have something like 195 games, and i am an avarage player and my highest tier ship is 6.... but I mostly play randoms, except weekends (cuz weekend players are very weekend xD), and trust me you wont get that results which you posted on tier 6 (unless the whole team instantly dies and you're the only one still alive) and it happened to me that i wanted to play tier 6 operations and the requirement was to division up. Now this may have been a bug or some sorts but it happened. So what i wrote i did it based on my experience.

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Back when I played everyone hopped straight into pvp. Co-op was only for testing higher tier complex ships, but only for one match before going straight into pvp. People would be helpful and supportive when you say you are new to that ship and sometimes even make witty comments on how that ship performs so you can get a good idea of it. This would not be achievable in pve; no one to comment on your ship, and no real people to play with and against to accelerate the process of knowing your ship. 

 

For low tiers, I think the WG design is generally pretty good enough in that area. Low tier games are less complex even in pvp, and even a new player can quite easily get used to the game and learn about ships without overt failure at those tiers. This game was meant to be enjoyed, learned, and experience from beginning to end in pvp.

 

If Co-op was to enjoy a kind of campaign not available in pvp that would be a valid point, but as training for pvp? Pvp training happens in pvp, not in pve with unbelievable bots.

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On ‎16‎-‎01‎-‎2018 at 1:11 AM, Parakitteh said:

I see a lot of people saying that newer players like myself should spend more time in Co-Op Battle to learn the mechanics and tactics before spending more time in Random Battle, particularly when you get to Tier V and the end of preferential MM.

 

Co-Op Battle as-is, I don't feel offers a suitable challenge or opportunity for players to really learn if they have a basic grasp of the mechanics already. The small team sizes (what is it, 7v7?) and limited intelligence of the bots doesn't allow players to get to grips with leading fast, manoeuvring targets or players with a good grasp of angling and map control.

Not to mention, skilled players in Co-Op Battle just seem to dominate the game anyway, meaning that players trying to learn a new ship or new playstyle don't really have a chance to practice against anything.

 

A tweak - or at least an optional mode within Co-Op Battle - could be made here.

Expand the lobbies to 24 "player" like regular MM, but imbalanced teams. Potentially, 8v16 or 9v15

The additional 6-8 enemy ships would allow more targets for all players, pose more of a challenge for the team overall, and probably a decent chance for people to experiment more, without taking too many more players out of the queue for Random. Or, "players" are restricted to 7, with the enemy team to 15 and two bots on the greens.

 

Thoughts?

 

exactly, my thoughts.

but you forget one thing

Co-op gives the player the possibility to grind a ship, that's outside the operation benefits. Before you take it to PVP.

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On ‎16‎-‎01‎-‎2018 at 6:34 PM, Capra76 said:

 

Originally ops allowed T5 + T6, but they limited it to T6 once players complained.

 

It's not really fair on the rest of your team to bring T5 ships in place of T7 once.

That's BS.

There's t5 ships that can hold it's own.

I rather be in furutaka than in Aoba in killer whale op.

Emile it's good too

On ‎16‎-‎01‎-‎2018 at 2:19 AM, IanH755 said:

For new players Co-Op really should only be used to "learn the basics of the game" i.e. how to shoot, steer, use torps etc upto T3 at most (T4 for CV's), but ideally they should be jumping in PvP by as early as possible to "learn how to play the game" instead of "Learning the basics".

Co-op it's weird when compared with random.

What I love about co-op, people and bots completely disregard the cap circles.

Every mode has it's own game style.

If you go random style in a co-op battle you end up with nothing.

A long time ago, a player, @Darth Glorious, said that in operations you are in a competition with the rest of the team, this is true to co-op.

You simply have to go for it, full steam ahead to the middle of them to sink as many as you can before the others.

 

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@xScoundrelx - I would still stick to Random matches until you have much more experience, you can gain nothing from Co-Op at the moment except 'maybe' some weekend stress relief at most. Just for 'full disclosure', I am in the top 20 Co-Op players on the EU & I run everything Premium (Time/Ships) and all the new "special" XP flags so my results will naturally be better but even at T5 I can still get very high XP games like the Tirptz one above, although the Des Moines score was a special game so best to ignore that one :Smile_Default:

 

T5 Game

 

wows338.jpg

 

7 hours ago, xScoundrelx said:

 it happened to me that i wanted to play tier 6 operations and the requirement was to division up. Now this may have been a bug or some sorts but it happened.

 

As I mentioned, only 1 operation per week is "Free to Join" as a single player, the other 5 require you to be in a Division. The "Free to Join" Operation changes every week and is called the "Operation of the Week" so make sure you select that to avoid being told you have to be in a division.

 

Once you get into a T6 Operation they are, again, very nice IF you play well -

 

wows326.jpg

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5 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

That's BS.

There's t5 ships that can hold it's own.

I rather be in furutaka than in Aoba in killer whale op.

Emile it's good too

 

By BS I assume you're not disputing that T5 ships used to be allowed into ops until WG changed it.

 

Even if there are a few T5 that might be considered better for ops than their T6 successors, the vast majority aren't.  How would you feel to see an Omaha instead of a Cleveland or a Kirov instead of a Buddy on your team?  And you're asking for a T5-7 spread.

 

So what are WG to do?  Go through every T5 and say yes/no for operations?  Is that really practical?

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2 hours ago, Capra76 said:

 

By BS I assume you're not disputing that T5 ships used to be allowed into ops until WG changed it.

 

Even if there are a few T5 that might be considered better for ops than their T6 successors, the vast majority aren't.  How would you feel to see an Omaha instead of a Cleveland or a Kirov instead of a Buddy on your team?  And you're asking for a T5-7 spread.

 

So what are WG to do?  Go through every T5 and say yes/no for operations?  Is that really practical?

 

Yes.

And I was one of them.

No, I'm not (asking)

Most of the ships in part of operations have bots that t5 ships can handle just fine, you have chikumas, tenryos, kolberts and such.

the new t7 operations have one t6 ship (Kato) and lots of phoenix, omaha, and such.

Maybe when they were t5+t6s in ops the thing was more balance towards the t6 than to t5.

They could rebalance or make new operations for t5s.

 

 

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I wonder if they could make each operation available to play for different tier Humans just by changing the bots you face i.e. if we pick "Ultimate Frontier" the current T7 Op and then keep the same setup but change the Bots to the following -

 

Human T5 Only - Bots T3-6

Human T6 Only - Bots T4-7

Human T7 Only - Bots T5-8

 

All WG would have to do is change the Op "setup file", nothing else needs to change, not the objectives or maps etc, just change the Bot Tier level and suddenly you've got "new" operations plus you could even make Human T8+ Ops too for "Hard" mode.

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4 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

Most of the ships in part of operations have bots that t5 ships can handle just fine, you have chikumas, tenryos, kolberts and such.

the new t7 operations have one t6 ship (Kato) and lots of phoenix, omaha, and such.

Maybe when they were t5+t6s in ops the thing was more balance towards the t6 than to t5.

They could rebalance

 

The problem isn't just the tier of ship you're facing but the number as well, even T10 will lose to T4 ships if there's enough of them.

 

The problem with including both T5 and T6 is that the difficulty then depends upon the team composition, if it's balanced around a mixture of T5/6 then a T6 heavy fleet will find it too easy and a T5 heavy fleet will find it too hard, if it's balanced around T6 ships then every T5 is a drag on the rest of his team.

 

 

50 minutes ago, IanH755 said:

I wonder if they could make each operation available to play for different tier Humans just by changing the bots you face i.e. if we pick "Ultimate Frontier" the current T7 Op and then keep the same setup but change the Bots to the following -

 

Human T5 Only - Bots T3-6

Human T6 Only - Bots T4-7

Human T7 Only - Bots T5-8

 

Not a terrible idea, but I imagine it would take quite a lot of fine tuning to keep the difficulty level approximately constant, multiplied by however many maps, I just can't see WG being willing to invest the time.

 

The question I have to ask is what is the problem that prevents people using T6 or even T7 ships?  The research cost of a Cleveland is 36,500 (and with the line change incoming that should be a priority), they're not that expensive to buy or kit out and if you're just using it for operations even a stock ship with a low skilled captain will be better than an Omaha.

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