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RADAR

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Just now, SeeteufeI said:

Debatable, carriers can ruin your day as a destroyer like no other class.

 

Ye i wrote that a bit weird now that i re-read it.. i meant like the worst enemy of a DD is a CV^^

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6 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

You have your own DDs to help. But now, they're not going to push that far, because they don't want to be caught in a radar.

 

What game are you playing? Im sure, its not World of Warships, cuz 90% of DDs I see dont care at all about the setup. Okinawa, 1 Gearing + CV + 2x Missouri + 2 Radar Cruiser? Hell yea, run into B full force. Whats our Missouri saying? Its a bad idea? Why? Planes will spot me? Radar ships? Never heard of. *45 sec later* WHY? WHAT? WHY ARE THEY SHOOTING ME? better smoke up....hehehehe...thats it....WAIT...WHATHOW BOOM.

 

4 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Radar is fine, you just have to develop greater map awareness.

 

This. See above example from yesterday.

 

2 hours ago, Cime said:

Make it so that only ship that use radar see ship in smoke ( in range ) - that is the only way that is fair,, 

 

3 out of 4 times I activate radar for the team, often I cant even shoot myself and I know this before I activate it.

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3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Ye i wrote that a bit weird now that i re-read it.. i meant like the worst enemy of a DD is a CV^^

Well, I think I misinterpreted your statement.

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Idk, Radar is fine to a point - trying to play a Shimakaze in a game with 2 Missouri, 2 DM and a Chappy and a Midway on the red team is an exercise in frustration.

 

It isn't frequent, but dear lord is it irritating. 

 

It's like most things in WoWs in that is it is fine in moderation, but saturation breaks things.

 

See:

  • Double CV games (soooo many planes)
  • 6/7 BB per side games
  • 6 DD per side games

That sort of thing all tends to be rather tedious - weirdly (and exceptionally rare) are the games where you have 6+ cruisers per side which tend to quite fun and fast paced imo.

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Radar is everything to afraid of.. I am a main dd player, actually a ijn dd player. If there wouldn’t be any radar, I would be so much happy because with my 5.4km detectability range ı will be as free as seagulls. Radar is a must ıf you ask me. If a dd captain plays careful which he must do always, radar is just another meta he needs to calculate and think about. If you play your dds like ı go in cap pop smoke and sit.. And curse bbs for not supporting you while they were trying to reach that cap full throttle... You are doing something wrong.. A good dd is the best support any team can find... I ve seen it numerous times in ranked.. If enemy dd or dds are dead it is mostly a win and a walk in the park for me and my team... 

 

Shortly, my opinion is, ıf there wasnt any radar in the game, stealth dds would be too much powerful.. I can keep a retreating bb perma lit and direct him towards my frienda who were charging back from an island.. While he was thinking that he dodged my 3rd torp salvo.. 

 

I can even sail with him stealthly and cut him from his pack.. 

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1 hour ago, domen3 said:

Well lately I've switched the smoke for a torp reload booster on my kagero, and damn it's fun....and even less radar problems

Same with my Shira.

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15 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

Point 1: I don't usually have a problem dealing with radar.

 

Point 2: I think radar should be removed from the game because it makes it more boring and overall worse. I've said enough about that elsewhere.

 

When I state those things, people tend to just respond "l2p", as if they can just conveniently ignore point 1 and pretend it doesn't exist. CAs complain about not being able to find DDs. Get radar. BBs complain about citadel hits. Get citadel lowered. DDs complain about radar making it too hard for them. l2p, noob. Everyone gets those buffs that covers their ineptude except DDs, who just have to deal with it and become better.

 

Been said a million times but I will say it again... RADAR is fine..... the issue is it 'seeing' through large obstacles.... How difficult would it be to enforce standard LoS rules to RADAR the amount of extra coding would be minimal, same goes for Hydro and islands and Assured Acquisition too... if there is No Line of sight the there can be no spotting... how difficult is that for the devs to understand?

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To be fair, and as someone who hated the Mahan and feels like he is struggling with the Benson, I  have to say that dds relying on smoke firing suffer harder from radar than torpedo boats do. 

 

Played about 94 clan battles in shima, 62% wr and good survival rate while still being useful. The thing is that the average desmo has a lot of trouble hitting when at 9km or more. Moskva is a different story, but has longer reload and a shorter up time of its radar.

 

 

In randoms things are, well, random. Ultimately it is and remains a team game that actually is mostly (uhum. Whoever decided Kidd, Conq, and Belfast were fine needs to reconsider) balanced if everyone does what he is supposed to. 

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Well, since almost everyone on these fora is an expert on not getting caught by radar, i assume they don't cap or something like that. For me personally, i really, really don't like radar how it is now.. it's a blody 'skill button'.. I play RU DDs mostly, so i'm not that affected by it, but in it's current form, WG put an abomination in the game. I understand the majority of players need some handholding in dealing with DDs, and you don't want people sitting inside a smokescreen and spam HE. but you nerfed the smoke firing for that already. What i really dislike the most about radar, is that it goes through everything. put the entire moon between you and the radar cruiser/battleship(really WG?) and they still spot you if they have the range. At least let islands block radar.. that way the DDs at least can use the map to their advantage in evading radar. Now the stealth 'characteristic' of DDs is just a farce, it really doesn't mean much with how the game is currently. It's not 'tactics' it's not 'skillful' play, it's just moving in to range and press a button.. nothing of it has anything to do with skill. sure, after it is active, you need to be in position to actually have an advantage from it, but that's mostly the aiming of the player, and has nothing to do with the radar itself. 

 

If you really insist on keeping this thing in game, at least make it less overpowered in some cases, don't let cruisers have more radar range then their detection range.... and stop it from going through everything, smoke i can understand, but islands? really, don't. just remove that. I'm sure it will make a world of difference, and still makes radar useful, but it will be useful in situations that actually make sense. also, i understand it having more range then Hydro, but it's to much, certainly on ships like the Chapayev.

 

Well, that's just my 2 cents.

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Radar is the only tool WG gave as an attempt to do something about the insane smoke meta, specially since RN cruisers came out (and only to new cruiser lines and USN ones for evident reasons but it would be to much to rescue other lines with something to do about smoke too) and OP wants to throw that out of the window?

 

Logic.

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36 minutes ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Radar is the only tool WG gave as an attempt to do something about the insane smoke meta, specially since RN cruisers came out

 

Radar was here before RN Cruisers came. Also, I rather see Radar an a mechanic, to counter the absence of CVs. The game was - initially - designed to have Carriers in every round. Its must be, cuz else there is no logic on picking either Hydro or Def AA. It was only the Meta that started making this pick flawed. So, since there are no Planes to spot DDs, they have way more freedom. Especially high tier DDs, with their concealment mod and the insane amount of Torpedos with long range - this really only starts at T9 - they need a different counter. Radar. And tbh - Radar is no were near the effectivnis of a CV, when it comes to spotting DDs - and torps...

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48 minutes ago, _Caution_BraincellNr2 said:

 but you nerfed the smoke firing for that already.

Was an immense buff for DDs, but few ppl actually understand that. And i dont mean spotting a RN CL in his smoke... this is dumb and would be a nerf. This got worse with the PA-DD release and their ability to perma-smoke.

 

 

48 minutes ago, _Caution_BraincellNr2 said:

What i really dislike the most about radar, is that it goes through everything. put the entire moon between you and the radar cruiser/battleship(really WG?) and they still spot you if they have the range. At least let islands block radar.. that way the DDs at least can use the map to their advantage in evading radar. Now the stealth 'characteristic' of DDs is just a farce, it really doesn't mean much with how the game is currently. It's not 'tactics' it's not 'skillful' play, it's just moving in to range and press a button.. nothing of it has anything to do with skill. sure, after it is active, you need to be in position to actually have an advantage from it, but that's mostly the aiming of the player, and has nothing to do with the radar itself. 

Play a Radar ship and use the Radar for your team. Unless a specific person is in danger by that DD (RN Cruiser are different in that regard due to their squishyness, everyone likes to shoot them for free easy damage/kill), they are hesitant to shoot that DD. Been playing a lot Missouri or Missouri/Moskva division. And the moment u realize noone cares about Radaring a DD is pretty frustrating. If u are behind an island, u probably cant shoot him. So i like it as it promotes teamplay. If i should only use Radar when i can shoot myself, then its like smoke for DDs now: Why smoke up a random teammate who will get him spotted anyway?

 

48 minutes ago, _Caution_BraincellNr2 said:

If you really insist on keeping this thing in game, at least make it less overpowered in some cases, don't let cruisers have more radar range then their detection range.... and stop it from going through everything, smoke i can understand, but islands? really, don't. just remove that. I'm sure it will make a world of difference, and still makes radar useful, but it will be useful in situations that actually make sense. also, i understand it having more range then Hydro, but it's to much, certainly on ships like the Chapayev.

 

I understand that for some ships Radar is pretty strong (i.e. Belfast). But if u could spot EVERY Radar ship outside his radarrange (since it wouldnt work through islands) radar would be pretty much obsolete. Unnecessary risk and gain nothing. Pretty much like Missouri, but without the armor to withstand the heat (comparing Radar Cruiser here as if they would need to act like missouri). If they think its fine going as close as 7km in open water - eat my shells, u dont have to. U are just greedy and think u can torp me from minimal detection. Being perma spotted is usually a bad thing for any ship, thats how i would try to act as a DD vs Missouri. But when u see DDs going into a Cap and smoke up, then its a free *bing* for the Radar ship. u wont see him coming, and u told him exactly where u are, so he can position himself best to shoot u. Wouldnt help if he needs LoS in that regard since u dont know he is coming.

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8 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Radar was here before RN Cruisers came. Also, I rather see Radar an a mechanic, to counter the absence of CVs. The game was - initially - designed to have Carriers in every round. Its must be, cuz else there is no logic on picking either Hydro or Def AA. It was only the Meta that started making this pick flawed. So, since there are no Planes to spot DDs, they have way more freedom. Especially high tier DDs, with their concealment mod and the insane amount of Torpedos with long range - this really only starts at T9 - they need a different counter. Radar. And tbh - Radar is no were near the effectivnis of a CV, when it comes to spotting DDs - and torps...

 

Yes I know, but that's why I pointed out that radar gained it's real relevance since UK cruisers appeared. I wouldn't mind more CVs, as you said the game was designed to have them every match.

 

Same goes for smoke being only a DD thing. It even was passable being a gimmick for the Iwaki Alpha and MK. But a whole line of cruisers with it? I mean... back in the day I didn't like DDs having yet another counter when radar was implemented, but after RN cruisers I'd be all for it if they give radar to more ships.

 

The sad part comes when it isn't even because of DDs... But well, I think it's a good example of how well you can expect WG to handle some things I guess.

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The thing about radar is that many ships can become DD no-go zones, especially when their detection range is lower than their radar range. And because we have received the Situational Awareness skill for free you do not only have the button, you also know exactly when to use it. No more high risk, high reward, no more surprise torps for Mr. John Doe CA. Combine this with the fact that radar also penetrates solid matter this is a little too n00b proof if you ask me.

 

For example I really tried to put the Shimakaze's 7km torps to good use, but being no unicum player I found I was more or less useless in way too many of my battles (either by doing no damage or dying too fast). Because of radar - and the odd CV - I mostly use the 12km torps now. Note that if the opposition permits I will still go to 7km or less before launch, however very often I am required to drop my torps from 9km to 12km in order to avoid insta death by radar/CV spot and the subsequent focus fire.

 

I am however not for the abolishment of radar, but it should be reworked and at least the X-ray qualities should be removed.

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40 minutes ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Yes I know, but that's why I pointed out that radar gained it's real relevance since UK cruisers appeared.

 

Thats true.

 

42 minutes ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Same goes for smoke being only a DD thing. It even was passable being a gimmick for the Iwaki Alpha and MK. But a whole line of cruisers with it? I mean... back in the day I didn't like DDs having yet another counter when radar was implemented, but after RN cruisers I'd be all for it if they give radar to more ships.

 

The sad part comes when it isn't even because of DDs... But well, I think it's a good example of how well you can expect WG to handle some things I guess.

 

If we would see more radar, we sure need matchmaking to distribute them even. Its already a problem, especially with all the Missouris around lately. Luckily, they hardly are capable of understanding, what powerful tool they have. Its like many german DD-Players and Lo Yangs dont understand their huge advantage of Hydro.

 

And I think, the entire problem is much deeper. Every new line of ships introduced needs a new gimmick, something, to make it special. I never understood why. This throws the balance between classes off. A cruiser is not a cruiser anymore, a DD not a DD and a BB not a BB - in the traditionale sense, when the game was born. Like you said, RN CLs brought parts of DD gameplay into the Cruiserclass. RN BBs then parts of gameplay, that we used to see from cruisers (HE, low concealment) and you can even take german DDs as DD hunters and Russian DDs as a sort of mix DD-CL-class. So it makes the game more complex and at the same time can make a specific game very unbalanced. The failure of ppl to understand the full potential of some ships isnt helping either, quite the opposite, it gets worse, the more gimmicks we get.

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2 hours ago, _Caution_BraincellNr2 said:

Well, since almost everyone on these fora is an expert on not getting caught by radar, i assume they don't cap or something like that. For me personally, i really, really don't like radar how it is now.. it's a blody 'skill button'.. I play RU DDs mostly, so i'm not that affected by it, but in it's current form, WG put an abomination in the game. I understand the majority of players need some handholding in dealing with DDs, and you don't want people sitting inside a smokescreen and spam HE. but you nerfed the smoke firing for that already. What i really dislike the most about radar, is that it goes through everything. put the entire moon between you and the radar cruiser/battleship(really WG?) and they still spot you if they have the range. At least let islands block radar.. that way the DDs at least can use the map to their advantage in evading radar. Now the stealth 'characteristic' of DDs is just a farce, it really doesn't mean much with how the game is currently. It's not 'tactics' it's not 'skillful' play, it's just moving in to range and press a button.. nothing of it has anything to do with skill. sure, after it is active, you need to be in position to actually have an advantage from it, but that's mostly the aiming of the player, and has nothing to do with the radar itself. 

 

If you really insist on keeping this thing in game, at least make it less overpowered in some cases, don't let cruisers have more radar range then their detection range.... and stop it from going through everything, smoke i can understand, but islands? really, don't. just remove that. I'm sure it will make a world of difference, and still makes radar useful, but it will be useful in situations that actually make sense. also, i understand it having more range then Hydro, but it's to much, certainly on ships like the Chapayev.

 

Well, that's just my 2 cents.

I agree with a lot of what you say, however, it IS in the game and for as long as it is in the game in its current form we have no choice but to learn to adapt in order to deal with it. I still play DDs a lot, I cap and contest the caps all the time and I still rarely get caught out by radar. I know which ships have radar and I know the radar range of each of them as well as the duration (both with and without the module) so I know how close I can get and when to relocate when a radar vessel is approaching. I also get incredibly annoyed when I see a friendly DD sit still in smoke in front of one of the radar ships. Playing DDs is far from easy but it is what it is. If one can't deal with radar then one shouldn't play DDs above tier 4 else you are just a liability for your team. 

 

 

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On 14.1.2018 at 8:41 PM, A_TIN_OF_MILK said:

since the radar was brought in playing dds   or any ship that needs smoke in higher tiers has become  well just  don't  bother   if the planes don't spot u the radar does     we last  under 5 mins   and if your trying to be accurate  ww2 radar was  not that accurate   a  bearing and approximate range as  the guy  watching the screen was  not   near the guns or  bridge so  please give the  the dds  ect  a better  chance either  improve there defence  or dumb down the radar ect   give a bearing and range give or take 3 k

 

thanx   for   any reply

 

 

 

wow thats alot of bullocks u write there xD

yes if u play crap radar rly hurts u but just for once u could use ur brain

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23 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

Just yesterday on Hotspot ALL of our 3 DDs played like assholes, never capping and suiciding into the enemies because TORPDAMAGE :cap_book:While the enemy DDs played absolutely perfectly keeping us all spotted, throwing torps and stuff... unless WG forces them to play to their roles, and stops making those retarded missions, i wouldnt EVER remove Radar from the game.

So if the enemy DDs play perfectly that means at least half the DDs do their jobs. That's far better than the average BB, so since DDs are overall decently behaved, we should remove radar. And as it is, capping is the number one cause of getting caught by radars, so if you want more DDs to cap, remove radars. You can't tell them to cap while maintaining the tools to blow them out of the water if they do that. Eat cake. Still have cake.

 

10 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

Also, I rather see Radar an a mechanic, to counter the absence of CVs.

Which means that if there are CVs, radars are redundant and should be removed.

 

9 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

If we would see more radar, we sure need matchmaking to distribute them even. Its already a problem, especially with all the Missouris around lately.

Just remove radars, and there is no problem. Easy solution. I mean, seriously, the arguments that radars need separate matchmaking and that radars are fine are mutually exclusive. If radars were fine they wouldn't need matchmaking taking them into account.

 

On 15/01/2018 at 8:06 AM, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Radar is fine, you just have to develop greater map awareness.

No radar is fine; you just have to develop greater map awareness.

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Radar are only there because WG and BBaby whine murdered the CVs.

Get more CV in the game again, and radar have no reason to stay.

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49 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

...

 

Stop your whine already. We get it, you are a DD-main, who wants to launch torpedos from stealth all the time without ever getting spotted. What you see as a perfect world is so one-sided, its worse then 90% of BBaBys whine. Besides that - one of the quotes litereally said: Radar is needed to counter good DD-Players, to what you answered "Yay, so if all DD-Players are good, we can remove Radar". tz. :Smile_facepalm:

 

Just to give you something more to rage: If we would see Radar removed, we would need to remove stealth-firing capabilities for Torpedos - like on many lower tier DDs it is the case. Ever thought about why that is? I guess you didnt think that far. Well, then gl with 6 km torps on Shima, cuz ultimatly, thats what you are crying for.

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3 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

So if the enemy DDs play perfectly that means at least half the DDs do their jobs. That's far better than the average BB, so since DDs are overall decently behaved, we should remove radar. And as it is, capping is the number one cause of getting caught by radars, so if you want more DDs to cap, remove radars. You can't tell them to cap while maintaining the tools to blow them out of the water if they do that. Eat cake. Still have cake.

Usually there are less DDs than BBs in a match. So the DDs that are there, must to their Job, more so the less DDs are in one match. One DD out of 5 not doing his job wouldnt be that bad, 3 DDs out of 3 doing nothing is not manageable for the team. Borderhugging BBs usually exist in both teams, so it doesnt matter that much. And its easier to manage than your DDs playing like selfish bastards. Its not about if they want to cap or not - they deliberately sail around the map, avoiding all caps, yoloing into several BBs/CAs including Radar ships, accomplishing nothing and dieing like a total moron. So they are perfectly fine attacking radar ships, but not capping because of Radar? Doesnt make sense now does it. :cap_hmm:

 

3 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

Which means that if there are CVs, radars are redundant and should be removed.

Well, there arent enough CVs.

 

3 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

Just remove radars, and there is no problem. Easy solution. I mean, seriously, the arguments that radars need separate matchmaking and that radars are fine are mutually exclusive. If radars were fine they wouldn't need matchmaking taking them into account.

A discrepency of 1 Radarship can usually be worked against, one team having 3+ more radars than the other is not fine anymore. How about one team gets a CV while the other has none (with current setup, not some old BS "but there were times when it existed!!!11). Would that be fair? Playing 3vs0 Radar feels the same way        , when they know what they are doing. Ontop of that u might get 1 less DD (which might not even be a true DD) and the game gets totaly down the drain.

As a DD player u should understand that...

 

 

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14 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

How about one team gets a CV while the other has none (with current setup, not some old BS "but there were times when it existed!!!11). Would that be fair?

Yeah, comparing it with CVs is a good idea. Most people agree that CVs aren't balanced, and that something drastic needs to be done about them. So, if you want to keep on comparing them, something drastic needs to be done about radar.

 

17 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

We get it, you are a DD-main, who wants to launch torpedos from stealth all the time without ever getting spotted.

If that's your interpretation, you obviously you don't get it. You just try to talk over with your dipshit "explanation" as if you understand anything you're talking about.

 

17 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

If we would see Radar removed, we would need to remove stealth-firing capabilities for Torpedos

Why? Stealth torpedoes work on lower tiers without radars.

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5 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

Yeah, comparing it with CVs is a good idea. Most people agree that CVs aren't balanced, and that something drastic needs to be done about them. So, if you want to keep on comparing them, something drastic needs to be done about radar.

 

No, u didnt get the point. Since u were saying

23 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

the arguments that radars need separate matchmaking and that radars are fine are mutually exclusive

its fine to a certain degree. 1 Radar more or less wont be that game chaging, but it happened often enough that one team has 3 or even more radar ships when the others got none. Thats why i brought in the CV example. But there are others aswell. 3 DDs f.e. US/IJN/IJN vs 2 DDs both RU. This is not fine and needs chaging aswell. Or are u saying that DDs need to be removed aswell because MM cant handle it properly?

 

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9 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

its fine to a certain degree. 1 Radar more or less wont be that game chaging, but it happened often enough that one team has 3 or even more radar ships when the others got none. Thats why i brought in the CV example. But there are others aswell. 3 DDs f.e. US/IJN/IJN vs 2 DDs both RU. This is not fine and needs chaging aswell. Or are u saying that DDs need to be removed aswell because MM cant handle it properly?

CVs are a bad example for your point and a good example for my point. They're not balanced like other ships, so therefore they require special matchmaking. They also have a strong tendency to completely dictate who wins the battles. As I said, most people want them to be completely reworked. A lot of people also want them gone from the game, because as they are right now, they just don't work well. Radar at best needs to be reworked. My preferred solution is removing them. Making them less mountain-penetrating would help. Making the radar ship light up for all ships in radar range would also help. Sonar should work like that as well.

 

I don't really have that much of a problem if there are different types of DDs in the teams, so there's absolutely no need to remove them even by my argument as misinterpreted by you. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Depends a lot more on the individual players. Mirrored matchmaking makes the game more stale, and that's what you want. Then again, you also want radar, which makes the game more stale, so I suppose you at least have a consistently stale taste. Personally I want a more dynamic game, and radar sits in the way of that. It hinders more than it helps.

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1 minute ago, AnotherDuck said:

I don't really have that much of a problem if there are different types of DDs in the teams, so there's absolutely no need to remove them

 

Finaly u admit it atleast:

Ppl have problems with CVs - no arguement there. I think they need a rework, but removing them is not possible anymore.

Heavy uneven distribution of Radar ships is a problem for MANY ppl - needs changing.

Uneven distribution of DDs (Torpboat/Gunboat) is also a problem for some/many ppl (usually the same ones who are argueing the same way about Radar) - needs changing

 

So here is your point:

Obviously YOU  have a problem with Radar, but u wont admit that, still u want it removed.

U have no problem with the DD distribution so its fine. Even tho, they can be equally game deciding as the uneven distribution of Radar ships.

 

giphy.gif

 

One of them fits your Agends - the other doesnt. Still u are totaly ignoring that from a view of balanced starting positions both are on the same level.

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