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Allanagtig

English cruiser - A bit too squishy

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So, after a decent load games in and against english cruisers, i honestly think that they need a buff in regards to their citadels. Currently the minotaur is one big citadel, and is actually more squishy than a DD. The english cruisers relys on spotters, smoke and broadsides, and if one of those lacks, the cruiser is completely useless. 

Once a UK cruiser is spotted, its a citadel haven for BBs and other cruisers, even if its angled or completely bow/stern pointed. 

Also taking into account that the english cruisers er so situational, and their floaty shells, which makes them horrible DD hunters on 10+km. The ships only damages broadsides.

 

Tbh, my opinion after playing UK cruisers, is that they suffer too hard from their construction, especially the citadel level on the ships.

 

Whats your guys opinion? please let me know and lets have a debate going

 

Best regards

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20 minutes ago, Allanagtig said:

Also taking into account that the english cruisers er so situational, and their floaty shells, which makes them horrible DD hunters on 10+km. The ships only damages broadsides.

 

My favorite thing to do is hunting DDs with my RN CLs.

 

20 minutes ago, Allanagtig said:

Once a UK cruiser is spotted, its a citadel haven for BBs and other cruisers, even if its angled or completely bow/stern pointed. 

 

"Even if completly boy / stern pointed" - is a total missplay. Did you look at the armor of them? Their plaiting is overmatched from front and bow. You want to angle. And then Neptune / Minotaur can bounce most cruisers shells very safe.

 

20 minutes ago, Allanagtig said:

So, after a decent load games in and against english cruisers, i honestly think that they need a buff in regards to their citadels. Currently the minotaur is one big citadel, and is actually more squishy than a DD. The english cruisers relys on spotters, smoke and broadsides, and if one of those lacks, the cruiser is completely useless. 

 

Ive found, the RN CLs are much more versatile then other Cruisers. You find yourself more often in useless fights with Russian Cruisers - my experiance.

 

20 minutes ago, Allanagtig said:

Tbh, my opinion after playing UK cruisers, is that they suffer too hard from their construction, especially the citadel level on the ships.

 

I have a survivabilty rate of 64% on Fiji, 62% on Neptune, 53% on Edinburgh and 50% on Leander. Only Cruiser im doing better in that sense, is Graf Spee. Which is its own class, somehow.

 

20 minutes ago, Allanagtig said:

Tbh, my opinion after playing UK cruisers, is that they suffer too hard from their construction, especially the citadel level on the ships.

 

They have a lot, that will compensate them for this. Speed, Concealment and Smoke. If you cant make it work, maybe the RN CLs are not for you. They are my favourite pick if I need a good round.

 

Edit:

 

21 minutes ago, Allanagtig said:

Whats your guys opinion? please let me know and lets have a debate going

 

And when someone answers reasonably and disagrees with you - its boring. Right dude... vote /close

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Also take into account that, every time wargaming decides to implement another radar ship, this ship surviveability goes down drastically

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19 minutes ago, Allanagtig said:

Once a UK cruiser is spotted, its a citadel haven for BBs and other cruisers, even if its angled or completely bow/stern pointed. 

 

If heavily angled its usually not a citadel imo. Yes 10-15k damage sounds bad, but that could basicly be 3-4 Penetrations. Still better than 30k showing broadside. And never angle full bow/Stern on... Henri IV can even overmatch that armor!

 

Buffing their survivability would make them OP imo. Yes they get punished when they show too much broadside (43k in missouri match today) but when they get good targets its basicly easy farm damage mode. In the right hands they are pretty strong.

The only buff i would go for: Give Edinburgh more torps. 3 Torps on T8 when paired more often vs T9/T10 is a joke. 6 would probably seem fine. Technically id want Fiji to have more too, but its already very strong and when it gets T5 MM then it would be bad also.

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3 minutes ago, Allanagtig said:

Also take into account that, every time wargaming decides to implement another radar ship, this ship surviveability goes down drastically

 

I have more problems with getting smoke spotted than getting radared. Smoking up too close to a Radar ship is a no-no anyway. Or u must have an island to cover the duration of the Radar. Or hope that the Radar ship is a selfish bastard and wont Radar u unless he can shoot himself (which is a 50/50 chance id say)

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Dude, they have smoke and repair.

 

Try playing the Mogami, it eats citadels from every angle just like the RN CLs (if not even more because its larger) and doesn't have smoke or repair. The RN Cruisers are the only Cruiser line in the game that is actually viable because they have tools to help them survive, most other Cruisers simply don't.

 

I don't understand why the hell wont WG at least give all Heavy Cruisers repair. It would solve so many problems with just that simple change.

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Well (T6) RN cruisers are already borderline OP (and downright OP in the hands of good RN CL players) the only downside is the citadel and that is very good like that.

 

example: The other day in my pepsi I was facing 1v1 an Edimburgh who was out of smoke -> if he hadn't tried going more or less broadside then I would have had no chance to win given he was full HP and me down to 1/3..........had he stayed bow on he would have won.

 

So yes a minotaur may cry if with my DM I take some blind shots (when said mino is too far for my radar or my radar is on cooldown) but then a good mino can wreck havock like some clan mates love to do.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Allanagtig said:

Also take into account that, every time wargaming decides to implement another radar ship, this ship surviveability goes down drastically

Thats quite ironic considering mounting radar on a British Cruiser is an option (a viable option for many maps in fact).

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1 hour ago, SovietFury43 said:

Dude, they have smoke and repair.

 

Forget that, the ROF and guns and quantity of guns alone can mess you up. (Belfast and Fiji).

 

 

OP must be talking about Caledon or Danae.

And with top notch concealment, what you want more OP?

you already have smoke, hydro and radar, concealment, ROF,  torpedoes.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Allanagtig said:

The english cruisers relys on spotters, smoke and broadsides, and if one of those lacks, the cruiser is completely useless. 

But when none of these lacks, the ship is terrifying. And they are there often enough to make Minotaur the second best performing tX cruiser currently. Why the hell do you believe that the second strongest ship of her class/tier is in need of a nerf? Her squishiness is balanced by smoke and crazy DPM.

One could argue that cruisers could use a survivability buff as a class. But if so, then Minotaur is actually one of these that needs it the least.

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3 hours ago, Allanagtig said:

Whats your guys opinion? please let me know and lets have a debate going

 

It's my opinion that You might understand RN cruisers better, if you hadn't free XP'd right to the Fiji (as it seems, 'cause no lower RN cruiser in your stats..)

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1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

It's my opinion that You might understand RN cruisers better, if you hadn't free XP'd right to the Fiji (as it seems, 'cause no lower RN cruiser in your stats..)

 

If this is correct, I might suggest buying (and playing) both the T4 and T6; I wasn't so keen on the T5, but those two are fun...

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this is exactly the problem you get when you use a lot of free xp to jump up lines quickly, he's only played 9 in the Edinburgh and 22 in the Neptune, it doesn't give you time to work out the good and bad points...

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34 minutes ago, Hedgehog1963 said:

I won't play cruisers without smoke these days.  They all seem squishy.

 

I still enjoy the Atago (repair and 41mm deck) and Zao (troll armor and nice rudder shift). Both with great concealment as well.

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9 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

It's my opinion that You might understand RN cruisers better, if you hadn't free XP'd right to the Fiji (as it seems, 'cause no lower RN cruiser in your stats..)

Cmon...

 

I freXPd those awful low tier RN CLs too ... and what ... your gonna say I dont understand them?

 

The RN CL game play comes to its essence with Emerald/Leander ... and you can really feel their strength with Fiji. From Fiji onward they are pretty much the same.

They are strong ... when concealed (in smoke). The smoke firing penalty reduced their strength significantly as you cant just push the caps with DDs. Plus the radar ships.

If you get detected (and you can get detected, whether its radar popping up, you fire and theres a DD within 7km or you somehow manage to drift out of smoke) you are dead.

All it takes is one BB salvo from pretty much any angle and you get deleted. You are BBs favorite target.

 

Am I saying they are bad and no fun? No.

Am I saying that a little buff would make them overpowered like Belfast is? No.

 

So if they gave them some lower detection range when firing from  smoke ... that would be buff well deserved in my eyes.

They are strong ships (in the right hands and in the situations favoring them), with strong AP, smoke, hydro and RN heal. But if you make one mistake and show yourself in awkward position you are pretty much dead no matter how you angle.

And just because of this they frustrate people and cause this buff demanding topics.

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No no and no, learn from better RN CL players.

 

Let's take the example of my clan mate who will almost always play a RN cruiser, he has average unicum stats but with his RN cruisers he has super-unicum stats, no matter if solo or in div so I would say he is pretty good, also, he usually plays either the mino (his favorite) or at worst the neptune so he is almost always facing radars + high tier DD + sometimes high tier CV.

 

RN CL =

1 Smoke. -> can my mogami/ibuki/NO/pepsi/DM get some smoke too please.

2 Excellent concealment. As good or better than their cruisers counterparts.

3 Hydro. -> easy smoke camping.

4 Good to incredible ROF. More shells in the air in less time, need more explanation?

5 Good torps. Can my DM or pepsi get torps too and with that range and as many tubes please.

6 Incredible manoeuvrability. Better than my USN cruisers.

7 Excellent acceleration. Better than my trucks, like ibuki or DM.

8 Great to amazing AA. Why the need for a USN cruiser then?

9 OK guns range. Like if camping in smoke needs even more range -> neptune + range mod = no go zone for BB/CA.

10 Manageable shells trajectory + shells pen/fuse. Talk to USN cruisers/DD about bad shells trajectory.

11 Last but not least -> RN CL heal.

 

Oh and some RN CL players have a lot of success with radar -> even more in  div with 2 RN CL, one with smoke and one with radar, and incredibly so in a div with 2 RN CL, one with radar one with smoke + a DM with radar.

- DD? You eat them for breakfast if they are tomatoes enough to be caught near you + with your hydro their torps will usually miss.

- Planes? With your AA + manoeuvrability  + acceleration you laugh at them.

- Cruisers and BB nearby? You have guns + torps + smoke.

- Radar? -> Look at the teams composition + your minimap..........

 

What else do you want???

 

Citas? My DM angled, WSD'ing and trying to get back into concealment received enough citas to sink because a sniping yamato 20km away got RNG lucky.....

 

If my pepsi or DM catches a RN CL broadside -> yes he will eat cita but so do all other cruisers.

 

The occasional weird cita? Yeah sure, but WSD + speed change + keep watching when the BB salvoes are fired = you seldom receive citas.

 

So no, if indeed some cruiser may deserve a buff in this heavy BB meta, the RN CL (T6+) really don't need a buff.

 

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All cruisers are squishy, or they would be battleships with small calibre guns.* 

 

The Royal Navy cruisers have several advantages over, for example, the Russian ones.

- The Royal Navy cruisers can turn on  a dime, to a degree where they deny physics by being able to actually accelerate within a turn. This is great for denying enemy shells access to your citadel. The Budyonny looks on the Leander, and weeps.**

- The Royal Navy cruisers have smoke and hydro. If they find themselves out of place, they can just pop these consumables and hope that the trouble will be over when the smoke clears.

- The Royal Navy cruisers have the heal consumable. 'Nuff said.

 

 

* Now, there's a thought for my next Grand Evil Design.:cap_haloween:

Also, as ForlornSailor remarked in post #2 above, there is the Graf Spee, which "is its own class, somehow".

 

** When in a turning contest, of course. In a shooting gallery, or in a straight up race, the Leander looks on the Budyonny, and weeps.

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3 hours ago, Nechrom said:

 

I still enjoy the Atago (repair and 41mm deck) and Zao (troll armor and nice rudder shift). Both with great concealment as well.

 

I've got that Atago.  Might give her a spin again.  Apparently a good money maker.

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5 minutes ago, Hedgehog1963 said:

 

I've got that Atago.  Might give her a spin again.  Apparently a good money maker.

 

The Atago has been a solid, reliable ship from the very first day she came on stage, and she's still strong.

Also, she embodies the concept of beauty and majesty on the high seas!

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OP, we have a similar number of games.  I played the RN cruisers when they were first launched, tiers 1-3 were fine, 4 +5 were a nightmare, no smoke or heal at that time. Leander was where it all started to come together. She still is that point, they are good cruisers and also fun to play, certainly challenging but that is part of the fun too.

Yes, more/better armour would make them stronger, but they do not need it, IMHO (I really bitched about them when they were launched and still curse when my Mino goes from 50%^+ to dead in 1 salvo, but that is my error, not the ships. I have come to regard them as my favourite ships to play, T6/7/8/10).

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15 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

"Even if completly boy / stern pointed" - is a total missplay. Did you look at the armor of them? Their plaiting is overmatched from front and bow. You want to angle. And then Neptune / Minotaur can bounce most cruisers shells very safe.

That really depends on the distance. If a BB is shooting me from 15 km+ I'd rather be bow on than angled. He most likely won't hit you at all and the chance of getting a citadel is way lower than the high chance of eating 1-2 pens (or still get citadelled, because RNG is a [edited]).

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3 hours ago, SinkTheOthersNotMe said:

RN CL =

1 Smoke. -> can my mogami/ibuki/NO/pepsi/DM get some smoke too please.

2 Excellent concealment. As good or better than their cruisers counterparts.

3 Hydro. -> easy smoke camping.

4 Good to incredible ROF. More shells in the air in less time, need more explanation?

5 Good torps. Can my DM or pepsi get torps too and with that range and as many tubes please.

6 Incredible manoeuvrability. Better than my USN cruisers.

7 Excellent acceleration. Better than my trucks, like ibuki or DM.

8 Great to amazing AA. Why the need for a USN cruiser then?

9 OK guns range. Like if camping in smoke needs even more range -> neptune + range mod = no go zone for BB/CA.

10 Manageable shells trajectory + shells pen/fuse. Talk to USN cruisers/DD about bad shells trajectory.

11 Last but not least -> RN CL heal.

 

Imo there are some points that are a little bit onesided.

8. No DefAA makes a hugh difference. Yes RN CLs have better/longer range AA, but the midrange AA (if it can be called by that) is much stronger with DefAA, because they are on similiar levels. DM get x3 with DefAA + panic mode, and RN CLs got to rely on the base-DPS.

9. At ranges 14+km hitting any evading target is more or less impossible, but usually u will se a lot of shatter/bounces. And Neptune too close is bad these days, when the enemy can rush u down.

10. I think DM/Mino seem to have veri similiar trajectory?

11. Everyone else gets HE shells where range does not matter compared to AP. Hit a spot eglible for pen = damage. Also any target can more or less angle against u.

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On 1/11/2018 at 6:31 PM, Allanagtig said:

Tbh, my opinion after playing UK cruisers, is that they suffer too hard from their construction, especially the citadel level on the ships.

 

Excessively high citadels aren't a British cruiser only trait. The Des Moines and Moskva also have a massively high citadel. The giant block midship is only really a Minotaur thing after all. I think the problem with British cruisers is that they have better concealment. This may seem odd to say, but it means that a British cruiser can get far more stuck in than other cruisers and, without the correct skills, can't get unstuck again. When a Moskva gets spotted and guns turn on her, she tends to be far further away from the enemy than the Minotaur.

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