Not rewarding BB tanking = BB sniping meta = Bad Game Design

[Enduro_Biker]

Hi all again,

 

First if I love this game. So eventough I have some constructive critisism I really like this game, it is one of the most fun and entertaining I have played.

 

I do belive that the issue we can notice with BB sniping comes down to not rewarding tanking in the first place.

Some have stated in another thread that the fundamental game design is damage based for xp rewards and advance.

I dont have critisism against that, and belive it should stay. However something has to be done against the BB sniping meta.

If WG rewards tanking damage even more the will to push caps might increase. The reward doesen´t have to be XP based.

It could be you get 3 damge tanking medals and 5 camo as reward/ 12 hours of premium as an example. Or you could make a tanking damage event  with a latter to climb.

After you have gained 20 tanking medals you get 250 doubloons. I am sure WG can come up with something., they are game developers after all.  (pew pew)

Thanks for reading my thread have a great day Captains 

[SinkTheOthersNotMe]

Why the hell reward even more BB tomatoes???

 

Even the sniping BB 20km will tank at one point -> while he is trying to pass the border to the map next door that BB might still be able to tank when he is the last one left............

 

Yesterday, my pepsicola in a T9 game tanked more than any other T9BB in the team -> please reward that, never ever reward tomatoes BB who can't even reach the server's average for WR and dmg.......

[AgarwaenME]

Problem is, the tard sitting in the back "sniping"  is still going to get overrun by the enemy at the end and end up getting just as much bonus rewards from the damage he takes then. Just like a "sniper" can top the scoreboard as he does incidental damage for 10 minutes and then get to take on damaged enemies as they push to finish him off as their last enemy.

[Captain_Strawberry]

Why should they reward a BB for sitting behind the cap even though they have all their citadel submerged and yet they are scared to go forward.

[ColonelPete]

Rewards for tanking

• Winning, +50% XP + 50% XP for first win of the day
• Dreadnought + 10 Flags that improve healing
• Fireproof + 10 Flags that reduce fire duration

You need more than that?

[Miessa3]

As far as I renember tanking in BBs get rewarded already.

There is an extra stat called "potential damage" for a reason....

[Tungstonid]

What @Miessa3 and @ColonelPete said.

Tanking is already rewarded and you get achievements and signals for it. I would even include Unsinkable.

 

The problem is that the "I must stay at 20 km and snipe" kind if player does so with every ship (i.e. they stay as far away as possible), probably for different reasons. Some might still not know that the repair costs don't depend on the damage you took anymore or that tanking is rewarded at all because patch notes are overrated, right?

However, I agree with OP that making the effort to tank a bit more visually appealing might help. Something along the line of for every 500k potential damage the player gets a tanking ribbon. This doesn't need to change anything with the reward system, though. Just a hint that the player recognizes "Hey, the more I get shot at (and survive) the higher the reward".

[Agantas]

10 minutes ago, Miessa3 said:

As far as I renember tanking in BBs get rewarded already.

There is an extra stat called "potential damage" for a reason....

Potential damage and spotting damage already get rewarded. I'm not sure if the reward is weighed differently for different ships, though. 

 

3 hours ago, AgarwaenME said:

Problem is, the tard sitting in the back "sniping"  is still going to get overrun by the enemy at the end and end up getting just as much bonus rewards from the damage he takes then. Just like a "sniper" can top the scoreboard as he does incidental damage for 10 minutes and then get to take on damaged enemies as they push to finish him off as their last enemy.

The important main difference of the economy revamp was that now it is rewarded to duke it out as a last ditch effort rather than running to the border, avoiding any damage and hiding. What comes to getting overrun, if he dies fast, it is not as effective tanking as properly tanking for the team with good positioning. Best tanking happens in positions where you can defend without being overun, but the enemy team doesn't want your ship to be for reasons like providing a flanking threat for their plans.

 

The problem with the sniping BBs is that positioning is hard and hard things are more likely to fail. If you go too close, you die with poor results, if you stay too far, you're not helping the team enough, ending with a poor result as well. If the game is close, the winning team is less likely to take a risk by pushing the camper if they are playing smart. Ships take time to manouver, so you'll need to account for that when making your play. So the camper isn't getting rewarded for tanking as consistently as the person who actively pushes and tanks for his team. Effectiveness of tanking also depends of what enemies shoot at you. Getting shot by AP is better if you're angled, since you earn more potential damage due to AP's higher alpha and HE being more reliable ammo type for dealing damage.

 

 

 

[Elypse201]

Sniping BB's such a new problem, anyway WG could introduce mission for each ship class. They done it in WoWP 2.0 and it could be working in WoWs too. Things like : tank 2 million damage as a BB, or do 200k spotting damage as a DD.

[Migulaitor]

I dont know how potetial damage (dmg tanked) is rewarded but IMO it should decrease over time or over amount of your team/enemy team/players dead.

Example:

1) 1 potential damage in 5 minutes rewarded the same as 2 potential dmg  15 minutes into the game (Supose this dmg is done in 1 second) 

Reason: People tend to cap at the beggining, its the most important moment of the game, you should take some heat.

 

2) 1 potential dmg with everybody alive is rewarded as 2 potential dmg when half the players (total or on one team) are down. 

Reason: Take your part of the heat on purpose, the less ships are alive the less you are tanking for your team, you are just alone.

 

ATM its supposed to be rewarded (Creds and xp?), I would push it a bit further and be specific in the result tab, so players can see how much they won for tanking. Also give ribbons, people like ribbons. 

[Tungstonid]

5 minutes ago, Migulaitor said:

I dont know how potetial damage (dmg tanked) is rewarded but IMO it should decrease over time or over amount of your team/enemy team/players dead.

Example:

1) 1 potential damage in 5 minutes rewarded the same as 2 potential dmg  15 minutes into the game (Supose this dmg is done in 1 second) 

Reason: People tend to cap at the beggining, its the most important moment of the game, you should take some heat.

 

2) 1 potential dmg with everybody alive is rewarded as 2 potential dmg when half the players (total or on one team) are down. 

Reason: Take your part of the heat on purpose, the less ships are alive the less you are tanking for your team, you are just alone.

 

ATM its supposed to be rewarded (Creds and xp?), I would push it a bit further and be specific in the result tab, so players can see how much they won for tanking. Also give ribbons, people like ribbons. 

 

WG won't publish what action gives how much exp and credits. At least not in detail. so a ribbon and/or a hint in the detailed battle report is the most you will get.

The thing with decreasing the worth of potential damage depending on the time or team members alive is flawed as well. I am happy to take the heat near a cap my team is engaging, however I can't influence who the enemy is shooting at. If they concentrate on my cruisers or DDs because they rushed in without waiting for backup and because they are more important to kill while my Yamato needs her time to get there and be an attractive target, you basically punish players about things they can't influence.

It is the same for making it dependant on team members alive. I have no (or at least close to no) influence over who gets focused by the enemy team or who gets torped while camping in smoke or who gets deleted by a single BB salvo because RNG if I am not even able to get there in time to draw fire. Again, punishing players for things they can't influence.

 

And why do you think that tanking is less important after 15 minutes? Is it really worth less if I put myself between the enemy fleet and their base and tank so the DD behind me can cap said enemy base and turn a game?  I don't think so.

[Acetessigester]

how about punishing those cowards instead ？

[Exocet6951]

You could reward BBaddies with instant 1 million credits for getting within 5km of a cap, and they wouldn't notice or even care.

 

When the carrot doesn't work, you need to bring out the stick.

[SovietFury43]

The sad an unfortunate truth is that you can not patch a morons brain.

 

Even if you reward tanking damage more, the morons will still be camping in the back and sniping until they are the last one left, and then go "tank" and cash in that as well. The only teal thing i can think of that would help would be to drastically cut the reward for BBs upon defeat. Maybe when the morons realize they can't fail their way to the Yamato, they may start actually fighting.

 

 

[DFens_666]

Have to agree with @Exocet6951

U could offer 365 days premium for tanking a certain amount of damage, the stupid BB player probably wouldnt notice it at all...

The need to know anything or play above Potato-level doesnt really exist in this game. In the end u still win (not as often, but still), u get XP every game, u get Credits every game (where the game is actually lieing to u, since it says credits, but when u wont look at the last statpage u dont know if u lost or gained any), sometimes u get flags, and sometimes u dont even die (not that it matters, but bad players think it does, because "repair")...

[ForlornSailor]

10 hours ago, Admiral_Surprise said:

I do belive that the issue we can notice with BB sniping comes down to not rewarding tanking in the first place.

 

Its gonna change nothing. Seriously, it wont. Simply, cuz the vast majority wont know about it or even IF they´d know, they wouldnt remember in battle. Hell, ppl still think, they´ll make more credits, if they dont sink - matter of fact: In a (noob-)stream I heard a guy saying "I need to play good now. Im low on credits. SO I CAN NOT TAKE ANY DAMAGE ON MY IZUMO". yep. thats whats really going on.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

10 hours ago, Admiral_Surprise said:

Hi all again,

 

First if I love this game. So eventough I have some constructive critisism I really like this game, it is one of the most fun and entertaining I have played.

 

I do belive that the issue we can notice with BB sniping comes down to not rewarding tanking in the first place.

Some have stated in another thread that the fundamental game design is damage based for xp rewards and advance.

I dont have critisism against that, and belive it should stay. However something has to be done against the BB sniping meta.

If WG rewards tanking damage even more the will to push caps might increase. The reward doesen´t have to be XP based.

It could be you get 3 damge tanking medals and 5 camo as reward/ 12 hours of premium as an example. Or you could make a tanking damage event  with a latter to climb.

After you have gained 20 tanking medals you get 250 doubloons. I am sure WG can come up with something., they are game developers after all.  (pew pew)

Thanks for reading my thread have a great day Captains 

First of all you are wrong. Tanking is rewarded, quie heavily. Both in XP and money and also with an archievment which earns you flags to be better at tanking. Pointless thread is pointless.

 

Also, award for the worst idea of the day goes to:

"It could be you get 3 damge tanking medals and 5 camo as reward/ 12 hours of premium as an example".

Nice, that will produce a bunch of suiciding BB's ruining everyones game because they hope to get those juicy rewards to grind other ships. Brilliant!

[ForlornSailor]

2 minutes ago, Earl_of_Northesk said:

Also, award for the worst idea of the day goes to:

"It could be you get 3 damge tanking medals and 5 camo as reward/ 12 hours of premium as an example".

Nice, that will produce a bunch of suiciding BB's ruining everyones game because they hope to get those juicy rewards to grind other ships. Brilliant!

 

LoL. tbh, I didnt even read this far . Yea. What an awesome idea....

[Shaka_D]

Played a game in my Missouri last night on the 'ocean' map. I pushed the lower cap to tank and help our one dd with my radar against the enemy dd. Had a Yamato on the enemy team firing at me from 15km, an enemy conquerer who turned and ran, and the enemy dd. our dd stayed and fought with me, our Yamato that was behind us decided to ignore our plea and stay as far back as he could so long as no-one was shooting at him.

 

I called him out, he said he cannot tank damage cause his citadels are weak. 52% win rate clan player. Fair enough, I don't have the Yamato but surely a tier x BB is able to help a Missouri by tanking some enemy fire off him. As is usually the case for these types of selfish solo players, he skirted the map border late game and was the last alive. I threatened to tell of his tale on the forums (obviously not) and upload the replay, but he wanted to upload it all in his latest video (I've never personally heard of him - so he cannot be someone of any significance whatsoever - and quite honestly I'm beyond caring).

 

I came near bottom that match with trying to help - tanking damage for so many minutes rewarded me nothing. If our Yamato had stepped up, moved forward and helped when asked the whole outcome of the game could have been different I'm sure. There is always a single player who could turn the tide of the battle, but when someone is so scared to step forward in a virtual game, how afraid are these individuals in real life? Why do people play a team based game and then do everything except play for the team?

[Enduro_Biker]

Thank you gentleman for taking time to replying to my thread 

I have read all the answears, some were constructive and some quite salty.

I realise the topic complex and I have to mention that I am talking about random matches in general.

Ranked games has proven be  more team oriented and players seem to have a better understanding of their ship  roles.

I shall return to the game, salute all & good luck in battle!

 

[Negativvv]

Sniping BBs can only be levelled as criticism against the players.

 

As any BB that gets closer, we're talking 15km or even 12km and lower gets far better accuracy rather than speculative sniping.

 

It's just low skilled players do not know when to push and how to angle. They try to get closer and die so never return to the good accuracy zone.

 

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

17 hours ago, Admiral_Surprise said:

I do belive that the issue we can notice with BB sniping comes down to not rewarding tanking in the first place.

 

Nope...

The greatest problem with "sniping meta" is that too many players in those big fat rustbuckets are utter female kittens, who nearly wet their pants every time someone shoots at them, so they try to stay as far away from the enemy as their gun range allows...

 

Things that won't change this "female kitten" meta are:

 

• giving more exp for tanking, as it wouldn't give those players dry underwear
• telling players that there is no repair cost anymore, as they don't care about the cost, but the fact that they might die in battle... well, their ships, kinda, and that there are no extra lives available to immediately re(s)tard (respawn) in the same battle again
• giving less exp for damage done, as they wouldn't notice any difference due to the minimal amounts of damage they do

[Hirohito]

I agree that tanking needs to be rewarded more.
Last night I was in a game on two brothers, were the enemy got to D cap first (the "right" cap).
We were on the weak flank, and the red team had 2 DDs vs our 1 (they also had a radar CL on their side), so our DD was reluctant to go in and spot and the red team capped it point D easily.
Meanwhile the red team also managed to secure the A cap, having a two cap lead on us and it looked bleak at that point as they were still pushing and threatening to encircle us in an eventual crossfire at A.
I therefore took up position at the closest island near the cap, where I discouraged further by pushes by their Vladivostok and their Edinburgh.
Needless to say, I was taking heavy damage and fires while doing so (also from their CV, who really wanted me gone from that position), but I managed to last a long time with careful retreats, heals, and poking back in to discourage another push (had backup from our 1 DD and a CA to prevent DD torp flanking).
As the red started losing the A cap on the other side, the red team on our side were trying to retreat back.
Thats when I figured we could break them by pushing in while they were turning, so I asked the other CL and DD for cover while I moved in in my big fat Massa [edited].
I eventually died to torps during that push on D, but we were able to get 2 out of the 4 retreating ships and our DD and CA secured the cap, making a great trade with 1 BB for 2 of their ships and a cap.
The red team lost a few minutes after as their positions crumbled.

In that game I had tanked a ton of damage (120k or so), shot down 20 planes and held down their push for a majority of the game (our DD and CA hung back behind me, while I was the one at the front taking all the attention).
I only scored 34k damage myself from behind that island position, and was "rewarded" with a lousy 800 xp.

From the xp alone, it seemed that I didn't contribute anything, even though I'm positive that if we had retreated from the falling D cap we would have lost the game otherwise.

This was not an instance of "sniping in the back", but using my health and big guns to deny their team a further push which could have encircled us.
And it was most definitely not rewarded by the game either, which really bugs me when I play tactically in my BBs.

[Starchy_Tuber]

Depends a lot on how you define "Tanking".

In game mechanic terms taking damage is rewarded as both Fireproof and Dreadnought are rewards for taking damage and surviving.

If you distinguish "Tanking" damage as enemy shots that don't damage you but are shot at you, then Tanking is not obviously rewarded.

Tanking damage is theoretically "always good" as any shots fired at you are not fired at the rest of your team and if you "tank them" (for no damage) even better (There is a finite amount of Damage the enemy team can do after all)

Rather a lot of BB players are very good at Taking Damage, but rather less at Tanking Damage.

It would be interesting to see the two differentiated between.

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, Hirohito said:

I agree that tanking needs to be rewarded more.
Last night I was in a game on two brothers, were the enemy got to D cap first (the "right" cap).
We were on the weak flank, and the red team had 2 DDs vs our 1 (they also had a radar CL on their side), so our DD was reluctant to go in and spot and the red team capped it point D easily.
Meanwhile the red team also managed to secure the A cap, having a two cap lead on us and it looked bleak at that point as they were still pushing and threatening to encircle us in an eventual crossfire at A.
I therefore took up position at the closest island near the cap, where I discouraged further by pushes by their Vladivostok and their Edinburgh.
Needless to say, I was taking heavy damage and fires while doing so (also from their CV, who really wanted me gone from that position), but I managed to last a long time with careful retreats, heals, and poking back in to discourage another push (had backup from our 1 DD and a CA to prevent DD torp flanking).
As the red started losing the A cap on the other side, the red team on our side were trying to retreat back.
Thats when I figured we could break them by pushing in while they were turning, so I asked the other CL and DD for cover while I moved in in my big fat Massa [edited].
I eventually died to torps during that push on D, but we were able to get 2 out of the 4 retreating ships and our DD and CA secured the cap, making a great trade with 1 BB for 2 of their ships and a cap.
The red team lost a few minutes after as their positions crumbled.

In that game I had tanked a ton of damage (120k or so), shot down 20 planes and held down their push for a majority of the game (our DD and CA hung back behind me, while I was the one at the front taking all the attention).
I only scored 34k damage myself from behind that island position, and was "rewarded" with a lousy 800 xp.

From the xp alone, it seemed that I didn't contribute anything, even though I'm positive that if we had retreated from the falling D cap we would have lost the game otherwise.

This was not an instance of "sniping in the back", but using my health and big guns to deny their team a further push which could have encircled us.
And it was most definitely not rewarded by the game either, which really bugs me when I play tactically in my BBs.

Had you not tanked, you might have lost and got only around 530 XP...

The 270 XP you got more were your reward for tanking. Had you used your guns better, you would have gotten even more.