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Quetak

What if fighters are removed from all CVs?

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[IDDQD]
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Hi,

Im not CV player, have just few games under my belt, but when I see how big difference in skill can be between two players Im sometimes thinking how to balance it.  

What came to my mind is obvious from topic title:

 

What if CVs havent any fighter squads?

 

- basic skill difference between players is strafe ability, there all begins and ends, if CV on one side dont know how to strafe his game is ruined (and usualy his team also)

- they will not need them to protect own planes agains enemy CV (since he hasnt fighters also)

- skill difference will be about timing and choosing right targets to strike with bombers/torpedos

 

Is there any downside except less things to do for CV player?

I know you enjoying strafing noobs like me, but what happend if you cant?

Will be CVs still enjoyable for you without fighters/strafe or its essential?  

Something to compensate lose of fighters (like scout planes without guns just for spotting)?

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well that would render a CV useless as one has to defend from the others strike force.... So ez kills for either CV?

 1) No downside, just more boring

 2) Nothing much, just alt drops I guess

 3) Maybe?

 4) All planes can spot

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1 minute ago, aidenthedestroyer said:

well that would render a CV useless as one has to defend from the others strike force.... So ez kills for either CV?

There are lots of strong AA cruisers and even BBs so more team play for AA cover. There could be done also some balance to bombers to compensate one removed threat.

5 minutes ago, aidenthedestroyer said:

4) All planes can spot

I know but you dont want your torpedo bombers spotting for half game instead reloading and striking again.  

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[EST]
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Easy. Get a match with tier 4 or 5 cv-s that are same nation. Its as close as u get to game without fighters and see if 1 cv gets an edge over other:Smile_facepalm:

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12 minutes ago, Quetak said:

when I see how big difference in skill can be between two players Im sometimes thinking how to balance it.  

Playing against that player who has superior skills, leads to improving your own skills.

Balancing the ships will make no difference to your skills, your skills are what you have learned as you grow in the game.

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Even if you ignore that taking away roles of the cv doesn't mean it makes it less likely to get stomped by a simply better player and said better player will be just bored more often, it opens up a can of whole new problems.

 

1) What do CV do against cv sniping? Should WG give them no fly zone AA?

2) What to do about Saipan which would become essentialy useless overnight or with premium cvs in general?

3) good and better CV players still would dominate the match against bad cv players anyday with good crosstorps, choosing right target, etc. because you only change the ships but the skill imbalance remains

edit: 4) oh jeah and what about the Tier IV and V CVs without Alt attacks? It literally can't get anymore boring than this then.

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[SM0KE]
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I only got my first CVs this weekend past, so most of my experience is fighting against CVs (and I don't have a huge amount of that either); that said, I don't think killing off fighters is the answer.

As a complete newbie CV driver, I would like the interface to be a bit more intuitive, and for there to be more (and better) tutorial material available.

It needs to be made a lot more obvious that the manual options (strafe and drop) are there, and it needs to be easier to see how to access them. I think there is something to be said for not dumbing-down their use though - developing skills through practice and study makes the game more interesting...

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[IDDQD]
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guys this isnt about my CV play/skill, I played CV in 1 game in last half year...and I dont need/want to improve.

 

Its about other players. There is so big skill difference between good and bad player on most influental class of game.

 

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2 minutes ago, Quetak said:

 

Its about other players. There is so big skill difference between good and bad player on most influental class of game.

 

 

Precisely why the solution is to make it clearer to new players how to get better, and to give them the tools to do so.

CVs would be of much less interest if they lost a key (and historical, for what that's worth) part of their purpose, so far better for the game to try and even up the skill differential...

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7 minutes ago, Quetak said:

guys this isnt about my CV play/skill, I played CV in 1 game in last half year...and I dont need/want to improve.

 

Its about other players. There is so big skill difference between good and bad player on most influental class of game.

 

 

It makes the skill gap even greater imo. I played a few strike lexi vs strike lexi games in the past and I always outdamage and win against the other guy because I pick the right target to hit while the other guy potatoes. I think fighters kinda even out the skill level of CV players, well somewhat. 

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16 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I did a similiar topic about that some time ago

thanks, i will need some time to read it.

14 minutes ago, Miessa3 said:

1) What do CV do against cv sniping? Should WG give them no fly zone AA?

2) What to do about Saipan which would become essentialy useless overnight or with premium cvs in general?

3) good and better CV players still would dominate the match against bad cv players anyday with good crosstorps, choosing right target, etc.

1) dont know...

2) rebalance his setups?

3) so good will be still good, but bad will not be as bad since he has some chance to deal dmg and not lose all his planes in one group by one strafe -> reduced skill impact on game in my eyes.

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[RAIN]
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Yes a good cv player can completly shutdown a average cv player with his fighters .

But why remove then ?

Its a hugde part of the cv skills , there are nothing special with your assaults planes.

With your fighters you can outplay the ennemi cv .

 

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25 minutes ago, pra3y said:

 

It makes the skill gap even greater imo. I played a few strike lexi vs strike lexi games in the past and I always outdamage and win against the other guy because I pick the right target to hit while the other guy potatoes. I think fighters kinda even out the skill level of CV players, well somewhat. 

 

No, Fighters increase the difference in skill level only further. If u can never properly learn drops, because on lowtiers they remove the manual drop/strafe, then u get thrown at T6 where its damn hard to learn manual drops, even more so when u get sealclubbed by better CVs, and if u are lucky get crap like Saipan against u (if 4 CVs, or when u get to T7). When your Bombers get strafed by a better CV player constantly, there is nothing u can do about it. First u have to learn to outstrafe him, then u got to learn a proper manual drop...

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11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

When your Bombers get strafed by a better CV player constantly, there is nothing u can do about it.

 

Well, you can always

Spoiler

 

 

Works fairly well, too.

Problem is the vast majority of CV players don't even know what strafing is.

 

Fighters are essential to CV play. Removing fighters degenerates it into a stupid damage race, solving nothing while once again creating new problems.

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7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Well, you can always

  Hide contents

 

 

 

I'd say this video is much more fitting, though: :Smile_teethhappy:

Spoiler

 

 

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8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

No, Fighters increase the difference in skill level only further. If u can never properly learn drops, because on lowtiers they remove the manual drop/strafe, then u get thrown at T6 where its damn hard to learn manual drops, even more so when u get sealclubbed by better CVs, and if u are lucky get crap like Saipan against u (if 4 CVs, or when u get to T7). When your Bombers get strafed by a better CV player constantly, there is nothing u can do about it. First u have to learn to outstrafe him, then u got to learn a proper manual drop...

The way i see it, fighters are an equalizer. Sure using fighters takes some skill but as long as the CV player doesn't keep it idle the entire game and left click on other fighters or bombers then the dynamic of the game will have changed as opposed to their being no fighter. You thing a scrub would know how to pick optimal targets? To be honest I think most people are at least more competent at using fighters then picking the right targets. That's why removing fighters are a bad idea. The better CV players would know what ships to target while the potato will just potato. Say a tier 8 CV in a tier 9/10 game without fighters. Competent CV players will go after enemy DDs first and scout. Potato CV players will just send their planes around the map border and try to snipe or waste time doing nothing useful to the team. I mean it's already happening now already. Removing fighters will exacerbate it even more. 

 

Also, WG's fault. They should have at most removed manual drop/ strafe from tier 4 if they're so worried about seal clubbing and let newer CV players practice manual attack at tier 5 and then enter the real world at tier 6. Learning how to do manual attacks at tier 6 is like having your first practical driving lesson on an LA freeway, you're exposed to all manner of danger even though you're still a beginner. Frankly I think that puts newer players off. Well unless they don't care and just play.

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1 hour ago, Quetak said:

What if CVs havent any fighter squads?

 

What about.... I don't know...

 

No.

 

or better yet , that's completely out of the question.

 

What's next?

BBs without guns? DDs without torps

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26 minutes ago, pra3y said:

The way i see it, fighters are an equalizer. Sure using fighters takes some skill but as long as the CV player doesn't keep it idle the entire game and left click on other fighters or bombers then the dynamic of the game will have changed as opposed to their being no fighter. You thing a scrub would know how to pick optimal targets? To be honest I think most people are at least more competent at using fighters then picking the right targets. That's why removing fighters are a bad idea. The better CV players would know what ships to target while the potato will just potato. Say a tier 8 CV in a tier 9/10 game without fighters. Competent CV players will go after enemy DDs first and scout. Potato CV players will just send their planes around the map border and try to snipe or waste time doing nothing useful to the team. I mean it's already happening now already. Removing fighters will exacerbate it even more. 

 

Well, many players just left click on Bombers, Fighters... So without them they would atleast have time to understand prioritizing targets. Unfurtunately for the really bad players, sniping the enemy CV has already been established as the way to go.

 

26 minutes ago, pra3y said:

Also, WG's fault. They should have at most removed manual drop/ strafe from tier 4 if they're so worried about seal clubbing and let newer CV players practice manual attack at tier 5 and then enter the real world at tier 6. Learning how to do manual attacks at tier 6 is like having your first practical driving lesson on an LA freeway, you're exposed to all manner of danger even though you're still a beginner. Frankly I think that puts newer players off. Well unless they don't care and just play.

 

Imo best way: Give T4 Manual drop for TBs and DBs, but dont allow strafe. That way u can learn Manual Drop, without getting sealclubed by a Unicum CV. On T5 allow strafe too. OFc this would require mandatory tutorials for CV, but knowing WG... Also id only allow 1 CV in all matches, so this T5vsT6 CV madness would be gone for good.

 

7 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

What's next?

BBs without guns? DDs without torps

 

Since when are Fighters dealing damage :cap_hmm: The only thing which Fighters can do (which other planes cant) is rendereing the enemy CV useless.

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Fighters I see as an important part of CV gameplay and part of the aerial superiority minigame. Dominating the skies should be an important part of securing victory, rather than carriers on opposite teams sharing the skies. It would harken back to the days in OBT when they introduced carrier mirroring and players would deliberately bring out their T10 carriers during off-peak times with strike loadouts and just farm each other's teams.

 

I do agree that strafing has been overbuffed though, its very much turned fighter combat into an APMfest rather than a delicate operation rather requires significant forward planning. When strafing was first introduced it was actually quite tricky to use due to ammunition costs and how it often left your fighters in a bad position, but after a few buffs it became the simple solution to any aerial combat rather than a tactical choice to be made based on the situation. Plus, ironically the buffs to strafing have actually nerfed aerial supremacy as even a single fighter squadron can do massive damage with very little effort. This is also without mentioning the Saipan, which has benefitted greatly from the extra features on strafing to the point of being one of the most broken ships in the game.

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8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Since when are Fighters dealing damage :cap_hmm: The only thing which Fighters can do (which other planes cant) is rendereing the enemy CV useless.

 

When they shoot planes out of the skies, and besides.

What's the trade Mark of Cvs? 

Dauntless? Avengers? Pffff, of course not.

Zeros, wildcats, hellcats, corsairs and Tom Cruise.

 

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1 hour ago, iJoby said:

Playing against that player who has superior skills, leads to improving your own skills.

 

In general I totaly agree with this statement. In case of CVs - nope. Superior CV player dominating the other one, so that he basically cant even start his planes anymore. What you expect someone to learn from this?

1 hour ago, Miessa3 said:

1) What do CV do against cv sniping? Should WG give them no fly zone AA?

 

There have been suggestions for this aswell in the past. We also have examples in the game - unlimited Def AA on Atlanta anyone? Long duration def AA? Def AA with higher multiplier? Also, It has been sugeested to give Fighters limited range around the CV. Best solution as far as im concerned. If the CV wants to give AA support to the team - he needs to move with the fleet. Its gonna put the CV back in the team, with all advantages and disadvantages. This has my vote.

1 hour ago, Quetak said:

guys this isnt about my CV play/skill, I played CV in 1 game in last half year...and I dont need/want to improve.

 

Its about other players. There is so big skill difference between good and bad player on most influental class of game.

 

Many ppl wont understand the idea of discussing. You´ll either hear: "l2p!" or "wth u are just trying to buff your favorite toy!".

45 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Well, you can always

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Works fairly well, too.

Problem is the vast majority of CV players don't even know what strafing is.

You pretty much answered yourself :D

 

37 minutes ago, pra3y said:

Also, WG's fault. They should have at most removed manual drop/ strafe from tier 4 if they're so worried about seal clubbing and let newer CV players practice manual attack at tier 5 and then enter the real world at tier 6.

You literally cant club new players. They have protected matchmaking untill... i dont even know how many games played or which ranked. We cant play against them, even if we wanted to. Also, if anything, WG should have removed autodrop. not manual... I dont just left click any enemy ship with a BB/CL/DD and let the game handle all the shooting and aiming. Thats what autodrop / no-strafe basically is.

 

7 minutes ago, RamirezKurita said:

Fighters I see as an important part of CV gameplay and part of the aerial superiority minigame. Dominating the skies should be an important part of securing victory, rather than carriers on opposite teams sharing the skies.

 

Who says AA on other ships need to stay the way it is now? Not an argument at all.

 

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2 hours ago, Miessa3 said:

1) What do CV do against cv sniping?

Long ago, somewhat in CBT and early OBT, a CA, usually AA like US, stayed behind and sailed along a CV to prevent this, then this tradition died because it became boring, since very few did it because of that, then AA CA in general became useless due to AA changes, eventually CV got theit own def AA, which in general is pretty useless since there arent many CV left and if you get them, they usually select different targets.

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[DIKI]
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This game does not need another simplification of gameplay. I hear farmwille is not hard. Maybe OP should shift to that game?

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I think its an idea fairly likely to happen.

 

Firstly it reduces the skill gap. The better CV will probably still win due to better priorities etc etc, but they wont be striking AND locking down enemy CV

 

This means potato players have more chance to do damage. Potato players love doing damage while not being shot at, so may be a return to when CBT when CV was the go to class for potatoes.

 

It also drastically reduces the number of things a CV is expected to do, since they're no longer providing air cover. This means easier to play, less toxic (since people are less likely to complain about no air cover if you dont have any), and more role for AA CA.

 

As a middle ground they could keep the fighters, but have them act the same way catapult fighters work - flying in a circle around the ship engaging anything in range, but as a squad of 4/6/7 instead of a single plane. This would encourage CV to be in the middle of the fleet, which I believe is how WG see them "suppossed to be"

 

Realistically they'll probably still hide at the back, and fighter duels are half the fun, so its not exactly an idea Im keen on, but it seems reasonably likely to happen at some point

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