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wot_chikor

Rant about CVs vs DDs

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Hello again guys here i am with a new topic :) i am sorry i have to rant everytime but when you like the gae and you see some bad things in it , its worth trying to fix  them

first of all i am new CV player at tier 8 ( grinded it very quickly )  , i have shared  some topics and got help from you in this forum alot . i think the class is fine and fun and i heard that som changes comming to it , i dont see why ...

anyway my problem today is about DDs with broken AA  , i dont have a problem with a DD with decent AA , but with AA that is utterly broken to the point where enemy CV lures you to DDs so they kill your planes , its so idiotic .

with my Shokaku somtimes ( lots of the times ) i fight tier10s CAs , and trust me when i tell you guys , KIDD and z25  kill my planes faster than Minotaur and Des moins , i wanted to drp a z52 and he deleated my planes without even a chance to drop , and i think this is so bad . it needs to be fixed , i used to be  a DD player and i know its annoying when CV start shodoing you with fighters and keeping you perma spotted . but  it doesnt mean the DD had to be able to deleat all those planes , its even historicly inaccurate . 

what you think about it guys .

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Quote

( grinded it very quickly )

There is your problem.

Learn the game. Learn which ships are dangerous to your ship/planes and how to handle them.

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It's a learning thing like what the Colonel said. Know which DDs have good AA or have defensive AA. If you see those DDs when you're playing your Shokaku, test the water first. If you know its fully AA built that sorta thing, then never try and go near it again, well as much as possible. If you know you've triggered it's defensive AA then by all means go ahead when it's on cool down. I've had CV players constantly flying over my Fletcher or try to attack me even though I have defensive AA on. Had a game where I was nice enough to tell this Enterprise player that I have defensive AA and he spent the entire game trying to sink me. Farmed alot of plane kills that game. 

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The fun balancing factor of this games AA, is that a ship with 2 AA mounts can be more efective than the ship with 20+ different caliber and dual purpose guns, while both can shoot lots of planes or nothing at all. Just a point, that if you found a plot hole in WG, then logic does not apply, and the answers are - works like intended or balance.

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Deal with DFAA DDs with the following method (if they're alone and cannot run for backup, you also need to have secured air superiority first to prevent interference from enemy fighters):

1. Spot with fighters

-> if they activate DFAA, retreat, wait ~25 seconds and then attack with everything. If they don't, go to 2.

2. Attack with DBs

-> if they activate DFAA, same as above, if they don't, stagger your DB attacks so he needs to waste DCP, then consider 3.

3. Are there friendlies close? If yes, keep him spotted with an empty DB squad for your allies and let them kill him. If not, you can either do 4 or 5. If he uses DFAA to discourage scouting, retreat, wait then attack with TBs.

4. Leave him be. If he's in the middle of nowhere and not a threat to anyone you can just ignore him for the time being.

5. Attack with TBs. Since he has hopefully blown his DCP he'll either be an easier target even under DFAA or will die to flooding if just a single torp hits. If you want to ensure a kill, attack one by one so he can only kill one squad with DFAA.

 

It's obviously best if you spot one when near friendlies since this will either trigger panic DFAA or smoke. If he uses DFAA, just retreat.

If he decides to smoke up anytime, use your TBs to either straight up kill him or force him out of it.

 

DFAA is not a free card for DDs to roam the map alone in a CV game. It's a safety net that only works if allies are nearby. Without that it fails very quickly if the enemy CV knows what he's doing.

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1 hour ago, wot_chikor said:

with my Shokaku somtimes ( lots of the times ) i fight tier10s CAs , and trust me when i tell you guys , KIDD and z25  kill my planes faster than Minotaur and Des moins , i wanted to drp a z52 and he deleated my planes without even a chance to drop , and i think this is so bad . it needs to be fixed , i used to be  a DD player and i know its annoying when CV start shodoing you with fighters and keeping you perma spotted .

 

Imo thats the whole problem: DDs were too vulnerable to CV strikes (from good players and/or crossdrops) instead of doing some changes there, they rather slap DefAA on DDs (and buff it, btw is that already out or still to come?), so some DDs can play AA Fortress, while others get shafted.

Id go for something like this:

- DWT Torps for all CVs (which cant hit DDs)

- Planes wont spot Torps anymore

- Remove DPM increase for DefAA on DDs, keep the panic.

 

In the end the CV has the ability to spot the DD, thus helping his team to kill it. And for me that would be great to get some teamwork back to the game. But the CV cant just go there and kill a DD. DDs are screwed over enough. No need to screw them, aswell as giving them stupid AA to screw over the CVs...

Also with DBs u have the ability to deal some damage on DDs, when necessary.

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22 hours ago, wot_chikor said:

<< whine >>

sounds extremely like an *edit

Edited by Jbnn
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inappropriate remarks.

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Deal with DFAA DDs with the following method (if they're alone and cannot run for backup, you also need to have secured air superiority first to prevent interference from enemy fighters):

1. Spot with fighters

-> if they activate DFAA, retreat, wait ~25 seconds and then attack with everything. If they don't, go to 2.

2. Attack with DBs

-> if they activate DFAA, same as above, if they don't, stagger your DB attacks so he needs to waste DCP, then consider 3.

3. Are there friendlies close? If yes, keep him spotted with an empty DB squad for your allies and let them kill him. If not, you can either do 4 or 5. If he uses DFAA to discourage scouting, retreat, wait then attack with TBs.

4. Leave him be. If he's in the middle of nowhere and not a threat to anyone you can just ignore him for the time being.

5. Attack with TBs. Since he has hopefully blown his DCP he'll either be an easier target even under DFAA or will die to flooding if just a single torp hits. If you want to ensure a kill, attack one by one so he can only kill one squad with DFAA.

 

forget the point 2.

 

DFAA it's for TB only.

 

If in a dd then you can focus your AA for DB, since TB are more or kind of hem for them.

 

Either way, you said you were a dd player, so what you think it's more dangerous for a dd?

 

Other thing, the learn to play or the git gud. That's good and all.

But what about those situations when you faced or have to face your opposite?

 

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Wait till you meet an AA specced Grozovoi...

In all seriousness though, DD AA is nothing compared to DM. No matter what you say. What will happen is that you'll only spot him when under AA fire, so he'll have the "surprise" advantage. A DM will be spotted before he can shoot the planes down ( though a very narrow margin ). Just follow El2azers' advice and you should be more or less fine.

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2 hours ago, wot_chikor said:

alright i understand but i just dont get it that DD can have better AA than cruisers 

 

Dont listen to CoronerPuPu. He just wantes to be the first in every thread posting something "intelligent" - usually telling the OP, he is bad, while he is awesome.

 

You are ofc right. The AA on the recently added Kidd is broken and stupid. Not sure if I should laugh of cry, thinking, some DDs surpass the AA of once as AA-Cruisers advertised ships like Chapayev.... For anything else, refer to @El2aZeR posts. It basicly tells tells you everything you need to know, on how to handle those DDs with crazy AA.

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1 hour ago, 159Hunter said:

Wait till you meet an AA specced Grozovoi...

In all seriousness though, DD AA is nothing compared to DM. No matter what you say. What will happen is that you'll only spot him when under AA fire, so he'll have the "surprise" advantage. A DM will be spotted before he can shoot the planes down ( though a very narrow margin ). Just follow El2azers' advice and you should be more or less fine.

I think that's part of the issue nowadays, anything more than one of the outright terrible AA ships utterly rips apart planes. Even "average" AA ships like most BBs and half the DDs in the game are still a major threat to carriers now as AA has received multiple buffs of the years while carrier aircraft have either stayed the same or gotten weaker.

 

I agree with the others that the DD defensive fire should be like the CV defensive fire where it panics aircraft and not much else, rather than giving them the cruiser version that rips apart squadrons in seconds.

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2 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Imo thats the whole problem: DDs were too vulnerable to CV strikes (from good players and/or crossdrops) instead of doing some changes there, they rather slap DefAA on DDs (and buff it, btw is that already out or still to come?), so some DDs can play AA Fortress, while others get shafted.

Id go for something like this:

- DWT Torps for all CVs (which cant hit DDs)

- Planes wont spot Torps anymore

- Remove DPM increase for DefAA on DDs, keep the panic.

 

In the end the CV has the ability to spot the DD, thus helping his team to kill it. And for me that would be great to get some teamwork back to the game. But the CV cant just go there and kill a DD. DDs are screwed over enough. No need to screw them, aswell as giving them stupid AA to screw over the CVs...

Also with DBs u have the ability to deal some damage on DDs, when necessary.

DWT torp for CV is an horrible idea.

 

In the first place, CV attacks DD for two main reasons :

- Nowadays they can't attack anything else.

- Killing DDs win games.

 

I really disapprove of the spotting of torp removed and the inability to cross drop. That's just lowering the skill floor. Knowing how to position your fighters/spotters in order to spot incoming enemy torp is part of the gameplay of the CV, and it's even teamplay, so no suppressing that, please !

Starts by nerfing every other AA. CV would be able to attack larger targets, and not be forced to only focus on DDs.

THEN gives all DDs lower Air detection range or something, and gives them a single-use a panic-plane DFAA maybe. But nothing else. They would be able to dodge the incoming fire in case of emergency. But spotting DDs is also part of the job of the CVs.

 

Also, I'll add a maybe : make US DB hit DD less hard. DB are very RNG and I think seeing a CV nuking a DD with a lucky DB drop isn't very nice. On the other hand nuking a DD with a good cross-drop (or even a single TB squad) is much harder and requires some skill in dropping at least.

 

 

But the biggest issue before all that, is the AA of most ships that won't allows CV to attack anything except DDs.

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2 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

DFAA it's for TB only.

 

Of course, but sadly not everyone knows that.

 

2 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

But what about those situations when you faced or have to face your opposite?

 

Easy, haul your aft towards your nearest allies as soon as you spot aircraft moving towards your position. Generally speaking you should always be within "escaping" distance of your allies to minimize risks while maximizing game impact (since you will also be able to spot enemy ships and torps for your teammates). Activate DFAA if necessary.

Ofc if you're completely out of position you can attempt to juke the enemy CV via smoke. Lay down smoke, move forward at 1/4 speed. Wait around 5 seconds after you've faded and go full speed again. The enemy CV might've tried to drop you in your smoke under the assumption that you've gone stationary.

And if he doesn't fall for it, yeah, you die. That's fine, though. No class should be independent from the team, after all.

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1 hour ago, ShinGetsu said:

In the first place, CV attacks DD for two main reasons :

- Nowadays they can't attack anything else.

- Killing DDs win games.

 

Yes and imo the CV shouldnt do everything by himself. Its totaly fine when he spots the DD and the team does the damage.

The problem that, especially BBs, have too strong AA is true, and ive been saying that they should lower BB AA drastically for some time now. Then CVs wouldnt need to focus DDs, and the whole issue with buffing AA on DDs wouldnt even be here. But WG just cant fix the root of the problem, they rather work around  it, which is totaly stupid, and creates only more imbalance across the board.

 

1 hour ago, ShinGetsu said:

I really disapprove of the spotting of torp removed and the inability to cross drop. That's just lowering the skill floor. Knowing how to position your fighters/spotters in order to spot incoming enemy torp is part of the gameplay of the CV, and it's even teamplay, so no suppressing that, please !

 

The problem is, bad CV players will never do that. And getting your torps spotted all the time is totaly not fun - other classes arent denied their primary damage dealing capability either by just spotting.

 

1 hour ago, ShinGetsu said:

Starts by nerfing every other AA. CV would be able to attack larger targets, and not be forced to only focus on DDs.

 

Yup, thats what ive been saying all along, for BBs that is. Imo some Cruisers are in desperate need of an AA buff... they have worse AA than BBs and even DDs nowadays...

 

1 hour ago, ShinGetsu said:

THEN gives all DDs lower Air detection range or something, and gives them a single-use a panic-plane DFAA maybe. But nothing else. They would be able to dodge the incoming fire in case of emergency. But spotting DDs is also part of the job of the CVs.

 

I think 3-4 km air detection for most DDs is totaly fine.

 

1 hour ago, ShinGetsu said:

Also, I'll add a maybe : make US DB hit DD less hard. DB are very RNG and I think seeing a CV nuking a DD with a lucky DB drop isn't very nice. On the other hand nuking a DD with a good cross-drop (or even a single TB squad) is much harder and requires some skill in dropping at least.

But the biggest issue before all that, is the AA of most ships that won't allows CV to attack anything except DDs.

 

For dedicated CV players it doesnt seem to be that bad to drop a DD - and somehow thats wrong. CVs already have the highest influence in the game. If u deny them the kill on DDs, the game gets a little bit more balanced, because then the DDs (imo the 2nd most influencial class) can help the team with the worse CV player. But when a CV can shutdown the other CV and nuke DDs and other ships with ease it brings a its just too much imo.

If TBs couldnt hit DDs, then good hits with DBs on DDs would be ok. At least something US CVs would be better then.

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5 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

 

DFAA is not a free card for DDs to roam the map alone in a CV game. It's a safety net that only works if allies are nearby. Without that it fails very quickly if the enemy CV knows what he's doing.

thnaks for the tips i will remmeber them .

but the problem i had tday was the z52 without DFAA in the cap C , i went for him sicne i kenw it was the only DD in the game with   TBs , he killed my first squad right away and the 2nd squad after it droped and ofc missed since it was only 4 toprs on him .  

what can you say about this 

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1 hour ago, ShinGetsu said:

But the biggest issue before all that, is the AA of most ships that won't allows CV to attack anything except DDs.

 

To sum up your post: You are argueing for CV buffs overall to enhance their dmg capability. It cant be like this, simply, cuz CVs already lead the stats in damage tier-by-tier from T7 on - and what you describe, affects only T7+. And if you reduce AA on all ships, so that CVs can attack anything at all time with losing max. 2 planes - how could you stop CVs? Answer is easy - you cant.

 

The entire AA-CV-interaction on hightiers / T7+ is totaly out of control. Started with the Saipan, really, and the introduction of more and more ship lines. Some of the latest crazy things are Missouri, Grozovoi and ofc Kidd. You are really effed if you play something like Bismarck in a game with Midway and your teammates are ships with better AA then u. You are the absolute prime target. And introdicung those crazy AP-Bombs just is a reaction to something went wrong and making things worse. Patch patch patch without adressing the real problem. Its what I read in your post aswell. Patch & Tweak around, but ignore the real problem.

 

Here is the real problem: WG used historic numbers of planes for the CVs. And then they build the AA of the ships around those numbers. Thus hugh-tier-ships had to have crazy AA-values, which left us with what we have now. Imo - AA-CV-interaction, also if you keep captain skills in mind, is much more balanced on lowtiers. I do divison my Orion with a CV-Player always. I can help my CV often, it takes a moment for me to shoot 1 or 2 planes down, but its enough to make my buddy win in a fighter-vs-fighter encounter. If you skill the captain for AA, it gets a little bit better, but its not night and day. Now, move this example to T9 or T10. If i´d take a Minotaur or Des Moines or Neptune and pair it with a CV, it will create huge no-go-zones. Also, if you start to skill those ships for AA, they go totaly crazy. A Neptune with a bad captain is no where near a AFT/BFT/manual AA build. Not even close! But thats simpel mathematics, if you double already high base values, you add up with insane values. Where as you take ok-ish base AA (Orion) and skill it, it gets decent - but not crazy.

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you are right CVs do the best dammage tier for tier , in my shokaku i used to attack moskvs / missouris alot nd to be honest i can punish them hard even tho they have good AA , i can lose a squad of TB but my 2nd one will hit and my DB will follow up with a  fire , so thats a good attack against a ship thats considered having very good AA .

then you come to the small little brat that is a KIDD or a z52 without DFAA and you expect at worst case to lose a squad of TBs just like vs missori or moskva and hit with the rest of planes and return them safely . but no that doesnt happen . i lost everything , witch is bad for me as CV you feel cheated .... 

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32 minutes ago, wot_chikor said:

what can you say about this 

 

Did you unlock the new planes and slotted appropriate upgrades and captain skills yet?

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43 minutes ago, wot_chikor said:

thnaks for the tips i will remmeber them .

but the problem i had tday was the z52 without DFAA in the cap C , i went for him sicne i kenw it was the only DD in the game with   TBs , he killed my first squad right away and the 2nd squad after it droped and ofc missed since it was only 4 toprs on him .  

what can you say about this 

 

I would maybe ask if u are SURE that there was only the Z52? Maybe Neptune or something in smoke? Even at 7-8km Neptune AA can hurt pretty bad.

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6 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

[snip]

5. Attack with TBs. Since he has hopefully blown his DCP he'll either be an easier target even under DFAA or will die to flooding if just a single torp hits. If you want to ensure a kill, attack one by one so he can only kill one squad with DFAA.

 

It's obviously best if you spot one when near friendlies since this will either trigger panic DFAA or smoke. If he uses DFAA, just retreat.

If he decides to smoke up anytime, use your TBs to either straight up kill him or force him out of it.

 

DFAA is not a free card for DDs to roam the map alone in a CV game. It's a safety net that only works if allies are nearby. Without that it fails very quickly if the enemy CV knows what he's doing.

Good advice.

 

Using TB on a smoked up DD can be quite wasteful. I've both done with CV and faced it with DDs and it only really works if 

1. you have the TB in striking distance (5-6 km) as DD smokes up

2. DD is a lazy arse and dont reposition in the smoke (which i admit many dont)

3. the DD in question is Russian or Z52, since all 3 almost maneuvers worse than Yamato. USN dds can dodge 100/100 drops they know is coming and you will never flush them from smoke, so dont bother with those.

 

About AA dds: My Gearing with DFAA up (no AFT, aa range module) has about the same AA rating as AFT NC. It will easily wreck a Shokaku strike killing at least 12/16 planes (the trick is baiting the CV to commit). Midway on the other hand loses just 4-5 planes on a strike. If not using DFAA on the shokaku strike it would guess about 4-5 plane kills is about right. But here's the thing: its a tier X dd, so it should be way better than tier 8 planes (strange fact about the game - Benson C has about 90% aa of KIDD and 100% aa of gearing. I can only put it down to vodka!)

 

The Z52 you attempted to drop has about the same AA as gearing without DFAA, meaning I would expect it to wipe 1-2 planes before you drop the torps and maybe 2-3  during and on the way out. Did you chase or fly around it before dropping? Numbers go up! Did you abort the strike? Numbers go up. Are you sure no other AA ships were nearby or in the smoke? (6 km range for most). Numbers go up.

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9 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Did you unlock the new planes and slotted appropriate upgrades and captain skills yet?

yes i did .. bt i think GulvkluderGuld gave the correct explanation   .

 

9 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

The Z52 you attempted to drop has about the same AA as gearing without DFAA, meaning I would expect it to wipe 1-2 planes before you drop the torps and maybe 2-3  during and on the way out. Did you chase or fly around it before dropping? Numbers go up! Did you abort the strike? Numbers go up. Are you sure no other AA ships were nearby or in the smoke? (6 km range for most). Numbers go up.

yes i did fly arround little bit beofre i strike and yes i waited few sec after i finished the srike to spot him for few more sec ... but still the brutal fact is there  that a DD did that to me ,,, i dont know , you thnk its acceptable just because he is 2 tiers higher .... maybe you are right .

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13 hours ago, wot_chikor said:

yes i did .. bt i think GulvkluderGuld gave the correct explanation   .

 

yes i did fly arround little bit beofre i strike and yes i waited few sec after i finished the srike to spot him for few more sec ... but still the brutal fact is there  that a DD did that to me ,,, i dont know , you thnk its acceptable just because he is 2 tiers higher .... maybe you are right .

 

Sometimes RNG screws you over.

I had Gearing games where I downed 2 planes just as a squad entered range (literally 2 plane kills popped up, never saw the counter on 1). Also had games where I got circled by planes and took forever to down even 1 plane, then killed 3 on the way out after they finally dropped me. You probably got f*cked over, because losing more than a squad does not seem reasonable (also see last paragraph). You must've circled like 180 degrees around him to lose an entire squad before dropping. And even if circling 180 he got lucky. Now if you circled 180 then aborted the strike and had to start over, it starts to be more reasonable losses (then it's a CV misplay and you spent very long in his aa - similar to permaspotting).

 

When you play CV from tier 6 onwards (and especially lower tiers with low hangar capacity), you should always aim to approach in a way that lets you spend the least amount of time in any ships aa bubble. Using TB, usually 90 degree towards their broadside, if BBs preferably from slightly behind them anticipating they will slow and turn in as you drop (other better CV players correct me if I'm wrong). Torping DDs is different; you generally want to box them with 2 TB squads, plenty of YT videos show how.

 

It is reasonable that a CV shouldn't kill DDs for free or be able to permaspot it without losing planes. When it comes to DD aa, the values dont change much from tier 6 onwards, but CV planes health does. Shokaku have squishy TB, but from tier 9 it gets much better and the CV can mount a pretty massive + plane HP module too. 

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DDs vs CVs is either pigeon shooting gallery for the DD, or free damage and kills for the CV. There's very little in between. Which is the problem with CVs. They're far too binary. Broken, not fundamentally overpowered or underpowered. They're both at once, not balanced.

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Only DDs with DefAA (which Z-52 doesn't have btw) are a real threat to CVs. 

 

I think as a special trait for some DDs, instead of speedboost, it is just fine. 

 

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