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Bunnytob

Just Because I'm curious.

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So, there's something I'm curious about and I think this is the best place to put it.

Very simple, why is concealment build viable on Battleships?

 

The way I see it - you have a huge detection range, and you can't stealth-fire. If you keep your guns smoking or there's a DD in the area, concealment is useless.

So why is it used over, say, Fire Prevention?

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Beta Tester
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I use it on my Cesare, but most BB's have so bad concealement anyway that it would be a waste of four points tbh.

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Quality Poster
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It's usually not used over FP but in addition.

 

Full tank build is usually used because it gives you the chance to disengage from an engagement where you'd otherwise would take too much damage. E.g. you're focused down by the enemy, with stealth build you can move back, heal up and then go back into the fight.

 

Also it gives you the possibility to sneak up on unsuspecting enemies and blap their broadside.

 

 

Greetings

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3 minutes ago, lafeel said:

I use it on my Cesare, but most BB's have so bad concealement anyway that it would be a waste of four points tbh.

 

lol... BBs with equal or better concealment than Cruisers are possible.

 

BTT:

Why not use stealthbuild depening on which BB u play? I use it on Missouri because i can operate close to the enemy. The chance of using Radar against an enemy DD is higher, because he needs to be closer when im detected.

U can get undetected faster, which equals less damage taken.

Id say CE can negate the damage totaly if u play well. FP only helps u negate damage when u are alreay under heavy fire.

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Just now, DFens_666 said:

 

lol... BBs with equal or better concealment than Cruisers are possible.

 

BTT:

Why not use stealthbuild depening on which BB u play? I use it on Missouri because i can operate close to the enemy. The chance of using Radar against an enemy DD is higher, because he needs to be closer when im detected.

U can get undetected faster, which equals less damage taken.

Id say CE can negate the damage totaly if u play well. FP only helps u negate damage when u are alreay under heavy fire.

Possible, sure. I'd still prefer to put my points into something more usefull when I have to actually do my job and help the rest of the team as opposed to hanging back.

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1 minute ago, lafeel said:

Possible, sure. I'd still prefer to put my points into something more usefull when I have to actually do my job and help the rest of the team as opposed to hanging back.

 

The funny thing is u can stay closer to the front with CE... so where is the point? Without CE u need to "hang back" more because u cant get undetected so fast, thats how i see it.

U can always take the heat with CE. But with CE u can choose easier when u cant take the heat anymore.

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Just now, DFens_666 said:

 

The funny thing is u can stay closer to the front with CE... so where is the point? Without CE u need to "hang back" more because u cant get undetected so fast, thats how i see it.

U can always take the heat with CE. But with CE u can choose easier when u cant take the heat anymore.

My point still stands that there are skills that I'd take over CE at that tier.

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4 minutes ago, lafeel said:

Possible, sure. I'd still prefer to put my points into something more usefull when I have to actually do my job and help the rest of the team as opposed to hanging back.

 

Using CE and hanging back doesnt really make sense, dont u think?

 

Topic: Using it on all BBs expect german. Missouri / Texas (same captain) I went AFT first, cuz I dont have enought points yet. But CE will come next.

 

The advantage of CE vs. FP: You can disengage easier thus dont even take fires, that you would stop from happening with FP. FP is a good pick on german BBs tho.

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@lafeel

Your argument is very weak, considering, that you only have played 10 (in words: ten) battles in BB so far. Every experienced BB-player will confirm, that a concealment-buil is very viable.

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17 minutes ago, principat121 said:

Your argument is very weak, considering, that you only have played 10 (in words: ten) battles in BB so far. Every experienced BB-player will confirm, that a concealment-buil is very viable

Dependes on playstyle. I do not consider it viable.Have better to do with captain points.

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15 minutes ago, principat121 said:

@lafeel

Your argument is very weak, considering, that you only have played 10 (in words: ten) battles in BB so far. Every experienced BB-player will confirm, that a concealment-buil is very viable.

 

I can understand how u dont need CE when u play mainly Coop tho :cap_hmm:

24 minutes ago, lafeel said:

My point still stands that there are skills that I'd take over CE at that tier.

 

I guess u are talking about the GC here? Id definetely go for CE on her when looking at the Stats. superb Concealment already combined with fast speed. The latter already equals u can engage targets mostly at your own terms, but the first enhances that even more. I guess u can have 11,35km concealment on the GC when i did the math correctly :P Basicly u can spot Cruisers at that tier before they spot u so u can just smash them to pieces with super accurate guns

Did i mention GC = OP?

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2 hours ago, principat121 said:

@lafeel

Your argument is very weak, considering, that you only have played 10 (in words: ten) battles in BB so far. Every experienced BB-player will confirm, that a concealment-buil is very viable.

Some do, some don't.

With over 2200 BB random battles with different lines I still won't take CE on any of them.

 

Or rather: It might be viable, depending on the playstyle, but it definitively is not a must-have.

I, personally, would like to see CE nerfed for BBs. IMO it just doesn't feel right how some BBs can have detectibility ranges on par or even better than cruisers.

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[WONLY]
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CE is a must have on BBs. A non-detected BB is the biggest threat for cruisers. Also as being said, you will need it to disengage from combat. If you just snipe from 20km like the average potato, you won't need it.

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5 minutes ago, Marble_Eyes said:

CE is a must have on BBs. A non-detected BB is the biggest threat for cruisers. Also as being said, you will need it to disengage from combat. If you just snipe from 20km like the average potato, you won't need it.

Guess what, I can tank and be part of the first line and still not field CE while being quite successfull.

Again, might depend on the playstyle but for me certainly NOT a must-have.

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I only don't use it on high-tier Germans, because secondary build, but even on low-tier Germans, if you have 10 points, CE is valuable (a bit over 11 km on Kaiser...). If you can have like 11-14 km concealment, sure, you can get spotted by a stealthy DD or cruiser, but such should be mainly at the start of the battle, when everyone is still around and you are hopefully pushing.

 

Now, consider the situation when there is no DD or stealthy cruiser on your flank, or they are already mostly dead. Or just further away from you than your detection range and spotted by another team mate. Or they fired at someone else and get spotted. Really, it's not uncommon that there might just be nothing within 11-14 km range of you if you don't push too hard. Then you basically are an unspotted threat and if you aren't German, that range is already one where a well-aimed salvo often is lethal. And if you are not spotted, it's pretty easy for enemies to forget about you and show full broadside, trying to angle against someone else. BAM, devastating strike. And you disappear again before the next salvo.

 

Also, it allows easier disengaging, because you can get out of spotting range easier when you realise positioning is about to get you wrecked.

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3 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

I guess u are talking about the GC here? Id definetely go for CE on her when looking at the Stats. superb Concealment already combined with fast speed. The latter already equals u can engage targets mostly at your own terms, but the first enhances that even more. I guess u can have 11,35km concealment on the GC when i did the math correctly :P Basicly u can spot Cruisers at that tier before they spot u so u can just smash them to pieces with super accurate guns

Stealth build do counter cruisers can and often will backfire. I have seen stealth build Conqueror three times. Once in Mogami, my first game in it, I suspect he also had RPF for some reason, gave up chasing me after receiving 6.torpedos, probably should have invested in Vigilance. And twice in Zao, the fact that I got Arsonist and Whiterer for their offort, might suggest the had wasted 4.captain points in this case, Fire prevention would have been better. Sure, it might be useful aginst less sthealhy cruisers, but they usually die early.

 

52 minutes ago, Tungstonid said:

Some do, some don't.

With over 2200 BB random battles with different lines I still won't take CE on any of them.

I agree. If I play a BB I want to be seen. This gives allyes mutch better chance in succseeding. If a stealth build BB disappares from the enemy scope, then weaker ships will have do take the brunt of the enemy fire. I usually fire at maximum firerate from the second enemy is spotted until I or all the enemys in range are dead. So for me stealth build would be utterly useless for my BBs. Being unspotted for 5-10.second does not make it worth it.

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9 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Stealth build do counter cruisers can and often will backfire. I have seen stealth build GC three times. Once in Mogami, my first game in it, I suspect he also had RPF for some reason, gave up chasing me after receiving 6.torpedos, probably should have invested in Vigilance. And twice in Zao, the fact that I got Arsonist and Whiterer for their offort, might suggest the had wasted 4.captain points in this case, Fire prevention would have been better. Sure, it might be useful aginst less sthealhy cruisers, but they usually die early.

Giulio Cesare should never meet a Mogami or Zao, except for fail division and total fail division. I think you are mistaking it for a Großer Kurfürst.

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1 minute ago, Riselotte said:

Giulio Cesare should never meet a Mogami or Zao, except for fail division and total fail division. I think you are mistaking it for a Großer Kurfürst.

My bad, I was thinking about Conqueror CQ

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1 minute ago, mariouus said:

My bad, I was thinking about Conqueror CQ

Either way, both tier X BBs are well-advised to have CE and FP and it shouldn't be hard to have a 14+ pt captain at that level. Insofar, I'd take CE over RPF any time, especially as with Conquerer concealment, RPF only helps against DDs, while CE helps against a vastly greater amount of things. The only reason I'd see to not go CE and FP on a Kurfürst is to go with secondary build instead, but that's not something a Conquerer is really good at, nor is it even that great on a Kurfürst. Just more fun for some, which is a valid reason to take it. Just doesn't mean it's the best option out there.

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[W_I_G]
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for randoms i use it on all bb except german. AFT really isnt that useful cause of low number of cv-s, so arent manual AA and BFT. you could use basics of survivability, but with fire prevention it is unnecessary.

if it was CB or ranked i would probably go for other builds.

 

so most usual build i get is PT, EM, AR, SI, vigilance, FP, CE. CE really helps on approach and on disengaging. dont underestimate value of few extra km you get when you are undetected.

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[TOXIC]
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SOME BBs (the better their base concealment, the more likely they are to benefit) can take advantage of stealth build in two major ways:

1. Offensive: you can get closer before opening fire. When you do open fire, you can then surprise enemies that might not take you into account as a potential threat - and then you suddenly appear close enough to punish them for unknowingly showing broadside to you.

2. Devensive: you can use your stealth to disengage or maneuver (showing broadside for some time) safely. This doesn't work in close-range fight, of course, but BBs have one trait no other class shares: they focus their firepower into powerful salvoes separated by more than 20 seconds. What it means is that a BB can keep the guns smoking, firing on cooldown, and still disappear in between shots. A cruiser can stop shooting to disappear, but (unless all DDs and stealthier cruisers are spotted) you never know if the sacrifice will get you expected results - there might be unspotted ships within your normal concealment radius. A BB always knows - he disappears first and then makes the decision to stop shooting, knowing with certainty that holding fire allows safe maneuvers.

 

So, to sum things up: of course, BB concealment is generally bad, but the way their guns work makes it so that IF they manage to use concealment well, they get a lot benefit from that, boosting both their offensive and defensive capabilities. That's why Concealment Expert - while not the most important for most BBs and most BB players - is a solid supplementary utility skill for many of the Big Boats out there.

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Some points why it's good (not in order of importance, just in random order than I though of them)

 

1) You can get closer, a.k.a. better chance to hit something

2) You can stealth up between salvos, as the detection is extended for 20s but BBs generally have their reload longer. Hard to shoot at what you don't see, especially for the potatoes

3) Getting away if you're in a pickle. Much easier when you can stealth up at 14km rather than 18km

4) "Getting the jump" on another BB - it's generally good to have the 1st shot against enemy, and force him to adjust to when you are firing. Basically take your best chance, to shoot at him, and make him shoot back at you at whatever chance he has

5) Much more reliable enemy predictability. Much easier to guess where the enemy (generally DD) is within 12km radius compared to 16km

6) Much easier time guessing when you might be under stealth torp attack. Far better chance there's a hidden DD nearby within 13km compared to getting lit up at 17km

 

I'm sure I could make this list way longer if I spent some more time thinking here.

 

As for CE instead of FP - yeah, always. I mean, always when you for some reason aren't running them both at the same time.

On my IJN and RN BBs I have them both, US I'm running CE + AA, on KM I have CE + secondaries.

Anyone who isn't running CE on BBs is making a rather big mistake in my opinion, and in my experience aswell.

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[FRDF]
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Yeah I'm using CE literally on every ship I play. I used to think when I started that BBs don't need concealment buffs, so I was happily sailing without CE and even without concealment module.. you can guess that the results were not very good :Smile_teethhappy:

 

There is probably couple of ships that don't need CE, like khaba, you are spamming non-stop anyway so can't ever use the concealment (which is already bad for DD).

 

 

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33 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

As for CE instead of FP - yeah, always. I mean, always when you for some reason aren't running them both at the same time.

On my IJN and RN BBs I have them both, US I'm running CE + AA, on KM I have CE + secondaries.

Anyone who isn't running CE on BBs is making a rather big mistake in my opinion, and in my experience aswell.

Honestly, I'm not too sure about CE on a secondary build. I'd not spec into secondary build without Manual Secondaries and AFT, so running CE too means going likely with only AR for 2 pt and either SI or BFT for 3 pt. Not sure if it really is worth it if you already focus on that close-range build, because while CE gets you into the fight less noticed, if you already sit at 10 km or less, disengaging beyond detection range or disappearing inbetween shots is kind of hard. So, while not a complete waste of points, I'd not consider it to be top priority.

 

I know I don't have stellar stats in the Bismarck, but I get by with running PM (would respec into PT if I could, but at least I won't lose secondaries much, eh), AR, BoS, AFT and MS. My next priorities are SI and EM. Find it fun to use, even if it lacks FP (but I find BoS more useful as it helps already with 1-2 fires, not just 3-4) and still lacks SI (I'd not give this or BoS up for a 10% boost to secondary fire rate), but typically I follow my DDs to the cap, trying to get the cap covered in my secondary range, and have hopefully my presence scare away enemies, so CE is kind of eh for me. If I go on to GK though, I'd likely get a new captain with CE, but also with FP and no focus on secondaries, because 12 guns is good enough DPM and the ship is so massive, getting set on fire is easy.

 

So, yeah, CE certainly is valuable, but I don't know if it is super-high priority on a secondary build.

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2 hours ago, Tungstonid said:

Guess what, I can tank and be part of the first line and still not field CE while being quite successfull.

Again, might depend on the playstyle but for me certainly NOT a must-have.

so open your stats to check them out..to see your success..:cap_wander:

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