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eraserr83

Overpenetration

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Sure that makes sense... 8x hit on Montana, and as the screenshot shows, least 6 landed on the belt armor.

Didnt knew, that Tirpitz is able to shoot through the most armored parts of a Tier X battleship with 15' guns... 2 times.

This starts to be ridiculous, 70% of all shots with AP is overpen, regardless of which angle, where or what ship we aim at.

Damage mechanics are totally broken, and Battleships are starting to become unplayable some times. Typical shoot&pray style.

 

shot-17.12.17_16.50.51-0382.jpg

shot-17.12.17_16.50.52-0480.jpg

shot-17.12.17_16.50.53-0646.jpg

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While i might agree with pointless, skillkilling "spray&pray" for BBs, and somewhat strange AP mechanics, i fail to find the clue in your last screenshot. If i am not mistaken, you score a solid 16530 damage with your salvo, which cannot result from overpens only. I don´t have the correct numbers ready, but from my point of view and calculations, its more like 5 regular penetrations and 2 overpenetrations. 5 regular penetrations on Montanas main armor belt appear to be okay...

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Upper belt on Montana is 38mm so u can go through without detonating because the armor was too thin.

 

But I do think this is highly questionable... But on the bright side: Your overpens made more damage than they should have :cap_haloween:

2 Pens = 7656 damage, remaining 8874 for 6 Overpens, while 6x1160 is only 6960, so u got an extra 1914 damage. Half a Pen damage somewhere.

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19 minutes ago, eraserr83 said:

................ Battleships are starting to become unplayable some times.................

 

218qfq.thumb.jpg.d759f0426f49b6060543daae556051ef.jpg

 

Meh wait till you see my CAs like Hipper overpenning Yamatos for some odd reason. Now that is truly ridiculous.

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17 minutes ago, pra3y said:

 

218qfq.thumb.jpg.d759f0426f49b6060543daae556051ef.jpg

 

Meh wait till you see my CAs like Hipper overpenning Yamatos for some odd reason. Now that is truly ridiculous.

 

Yesterday, I shot someone literally 2km away, and 6 shells hit the very same spot. 

Exact. 

Same. 

Spot. 

 

5 overpens and one citpen.

 

Server consistency at its finest. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Yesterday, I shot someone literally 2km away, and 6 shells hit the very same spot. 

Exact. 

Same. 

Spot. 

 

5 overpens and one citpen.

 

Server consistency at its finest. 

 

 

Lol at least u guys get overpens. I was literally next to an Iowa in my missouri and the guy bounced 6 of shells at point blank range.

 

I think I'm less bothered about this whole overpen and stuff cause to me BBs have high alpha damage in exchange for RNG. As long as my BBs do not have SC or Kawachi level accuracy that's good enough for me.

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2 minutes ago, pra3y said:

 

Lol at least u guys get overpens. I was literally next to an Iowa in my missouri and the guy bounced 6 of shells at point blank range.

 

 

This could ofc be due to the point of aim. How can i describe it the best? When u are standing close to each other and u would aim like the back turret hits at 90° angle, then the Frontturrets have a much smaller angle, so it might happen that they bounce?

Playing BB for me is like Exocet as it seems... its either Overpen or Citadel. When i get a Penetration is very often 0 damage :fish_boom:

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As I told, there's no skill needed. WG decides with RNG, wether you hit or not, regardless of your aim. Sometimes there are clearly visible, that 4-5 shells landed on enemy ship, yet it counts only 1-2. Or even with 'normal' penetrations, still deals zero damage. Ridiculous. The most amusing part, where you shoot from 25-28km, plunging fire, where shells are landing close to 90degrees angle on deck ----> Overpens ffs, did I just shoot through the hull, and it came out below?

What I realized is, that the shell counts only the first layer of armor, where it impacts the hull, so its possible to overpen with shells falling from above, if it hits the superstructure, and it doesent counts the several layers of deck armors and interiors of the ship. Damage models are totally screwed up, I'm thinking of switching solely to CV's and DD's, where actual skill decides, and the game wont be Shoot&pray anymore. Yaaaay, fcking hordes of destroyers already in almost every game, and I'm not even surprised, why.

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On 12/17/2017 at 8:17 PM, Vaderan said:

While i might agree with pointless, skillkilling "spray&pray" for BBs, and somewhat strange AP mechanics, i fail to find the clue in your last screenshot. If i am not mistaken, you score a solid 16530 damage with your salvo, which cannot result from overpens only. I don´t have the correct numbers ready, but from my point of view and calculations, its more like 5 regular penetrations and 2 overpenetrations. 5 regular penetrations on Montanas main armor belt appear to be okay...

Its not about damage. Yes, I did a good hit on him. This post was about overpens all the time, and these screenshots was only for a good example. And if you see on the right side, it did 6 overpens on it, which makes no sense at all.

 

On 12/17/2017 at 8:17 PM, DFens_666 said:

Upper belt on Montana is 38mm so u can go through without detonating because the armor was too thin.

 

But I do think this is highly questionable... But on the bright side: Your overpens made more damage than they should have :cap_haloween:

2 Pens = 7656 damage, remaining 8874 for 6 Overpens, while 6x1160 is only 6960, so u got an extra 1914 damage. Half a Pen damage somewhere.

Upper belt is 38mm, thats true. Still, if you look at the distance and angle of the shots... let me illustrate, and you'll see what I mean.

Overpen.jpg

They should have gone right through the citadel, or other vital parts. Plus there are interiors and armor on the other side as well, I doubt, that this kind of overpenetration is even possible at all. No, I'm definitely sure, its not possible.

 

Even Zao can overpen A Großer Kurfürst, this is another example. I made a good 18k-ish damage on it, still that 4 overpen seems a bit weird. They all landed on the upper belt/side deck.

shot-17.12.03_19.23.51-0014.jpg

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1 hour ago, eraserr83 said:

Upper belt is 38mm, thats true. Still, if you look at the distance and angle of the shots... let me illustrate, and you'll see what I mean.

Overpen.jpg

They should have gone right through the citadel, or other vital parts. Plus there are interiors and armor on the other side as well, I doubt, that this kind of overpenetration is even possible at all. No, I'm definitely sure, its not possible.

At 8km range you should expect at best 5 to 6 degree down angle which would bounce slightly upwards on the armoured and pass through the opposite side of the ship.

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Has anyone also considered that the overpen ribbon is, well, weird and not correct some times? I mean I have had overpens that have done penetration damage, or just now in a game in the Currywurst where 1 citadel and 1 overpen resulted in 16200 damage. So where did that other overpen ribbon go?

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14 minutes ago, G01ngToxicCommand0 said:

At 8km range you should expect at best 5 to 6 degree down angle which would bounce slightly upwards on the armoured and pass through the opposite side of the ship.

Definitely a BIG nope.

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First, the angle of fall might be correct (5ish degree), but the citadel deck armor plating on Montana is only 19mm, so I doubt, that it would bounce off it... lets see some armor penetration values for the gun SK C/34 and its shell Psgr.L/4.4

Even at 5000m, where the angle of fall is only 2.4 degree, would still penetrate over 20mm of deck plating (on 5000yards -4572m -> 19.3mm to be exact). It would pierce that thin deck in every case. Plus the several layers of interior bulkheads the shell has to pass through it would definitely detonate.

Source: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-52_skc34.php

shot-17.12.17_23.20.51-0813.jpg

shot-17.12.17_23.21.02-0183.jpg

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1 hour ago, ollonborre said:

Has anyone also considered that the overpen ribbon is, well, weird and not correct some times? I mean I have had overpens that have done penetration damage, or just now in a game in the Currywurst where 1 citadel and 1 overpen resulted in 16200 damage. So where did that other overpen ribbon go?

 

U can only get one Ribbon for each shell. One shell can overpenetrate one section of the ship, enter another one and detonate, thus doing Overpen + pen damage at once, but u only receive a Overpenribbon. Ive also had bounces which did damage (shell bounces from bad angle and overpens the superstructure f.e.)

These are no bugs.

Sometimes u can get Penetration + CItadel damage (or 2x penetration damage), which i think is considered a bug. It would mean the shell is detonating 2 times in 2 different sections.

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6 hours ago, eraserr83 said:

Damage mechanics are totally broken, and Battleships are starting to become unplayable some times. Typical shoot&pray style.

They only start?

Nothing to worry then.

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1 hour ago, eraserr83 said:

First, the angle of fall might be correct (5ish degree), but the citadel deck armor plating on Montana is only 19mm, so I doubt, that it would bounce off it... lets see some armor penetration values for the gun SK C/34 and its shell Psgr.L/4.4

Even at 5000m, where the angle of fall is only 2.4 degree, would still penetrate over 20mm of deck plating (on 5000yards -4572m -> 19.3mm to be exact). It would pierce that thin deck in every case. Plus the several layers of interior bulkheads the shell has to pass through it would definitely detonate.

Source: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-52_skc34.php

shot-17.12.17_23.20.51-0813.jpg

shot-17.12.17_23.21.02-0183.jpg

 

Remember that the historical citadel isn't relevant to most ships in WoWS, most of the historical citadel armour is in what the game calls the casemate section. Unfortunately, because the main armour deck is hidden within the casemate armour section, we can't see the main 150+mm armoured deck. It's quite likely the shell overpenetrated the 38mm upper deck, bounced off the historical citadel roof (not the in-game citadel roof, which is halfway into the historical citadel and isn't even an armoured deck) and sailed cleanly through the ship. The combination of autobouncing off the armoured decks and the short ranges in the game makes plunging fire almost completely ineffective.

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If I recall correctly, the ribbons only show the initial 'contact' with a ship. Meaning a normal pen can still do 0 damage if it bounces inside the ship. And an overpen can still do normal pen damage if it penetrates a normal section inside the ship.

 

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The ribbons are buggy, you get overpens with 10k damage, pens with 0 damage, 1 pen on DD for 6-8k (= 2 pens).

 

You aimed a bit too high. If you look at his waterline you can see that he is sailing slightly towards you (your pic is 1 second after the shot, don't know if you moved your aim). Pro-tip: Use the minimap to see where he is going. (Btw can you make it even smaller so it is even more useless on your screen?) So instead of aiming above the waterline you should have aimed a bit below for citadels. Don't forget that Iowa and Montana have lowered citadels nowadays. All in all you can't complain about the damage for this salvo.

 

I had an interesting salvo on a Montana yesterday as well though the outcome was slightly different:

Spoiler

shot-17_12.18_06_05.22-0724.thumb.jpg.4a97eb075a5be07cadc023cf288407f6.jpgshot-17_12.18_06_05.28-0905.thumb.jpg.c47291a109c5533af493f3fef94f9a33.jpgshot-17_12.18_06_05.29-0961.thumb.jpg.a54aa6c52a38b2d276b90891d73cd0a3.jpg

 

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14 hours ago, eraserr83 said:

Sure that makes sense... 8x hit on Montana, and as the screenshot shows, least 6 landed on the belt armor.

Didnt knew, that Tirpitz is able to shoot through the most armored parts of a Tier X battleship with 15' guns... 2 times.

This starts to be ridiculous, 70% of all shots with AP is overpen, regardless of which angle, where or what ship we aim at.

Damage mechanics are totally broken, and Battleships are starting to become unplayable some times. 

 

Try it on any of the DDs and laugh. Will always get 3-4k full AP hits anytime. Sometimes that sums up as 10-15k regular salvos on DDs.

If you do not believe try to play cruisers or destroyers more. In DDs I consider random BB AP the highest threat after radar.

Working as intended.

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3 hours ago, Exohoritis said:

 

Try it on any of the DDs and laugh. Will always get 3-4k full AP hits anytime. Sometimes that sums up as 10-15k regular salvos on DDs.

If you do not believe try to play cruisers or destroyers more. In DDs I consider random BB AP the highest threat after radar.

Working as intended.

 The nasty thing with AP hits on DDs is, that there are basically two options for AP if hitting a DD: overpen and regular pens. Since DDs have no citadell, like all other ships, hits to the center section are (or at least were) rolled with 50% damage, instead only 0.3 damage. A single BB AP shell scoring a hit on the center part of the DD (which is supposed to resemble the area of the vital parts of the ship) will easily cause between 4-6k damage.

 

In regards of the Montana-overpenetration issue: do we (still) have shell normalisation in this game? I thing, we have. If the Tirpitz shells hit the upper belt with ~5 degrees, it is well possible, the shell trajectory after penetration will be 1-2 degrees, so its well possible that they went through, or just bounced of the citadell roof.

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20 hours ago, Vaderan said:

 The nasty thing with AP hits on DDs is, that there are basically two options for AP if hitting a DD: overpen and regular pens. Since DDs have no citadell, like all other ships, hits to the center section are (or at least were) rolled with 50% damage, instead only 0.3 damage. A single BB AP shell scoring a hit on the center part of the DD (which is supposed to resemble the area of the vital parts of the ship) will easily cause between 4-6k damage.

 

That is the point. Either it is a 10 over penetration or 2 full penetration salvo (the only requirement is to hit the ships shilouette!) the poor destroyer will lose 5-15k HP.

No real mechanics or skill needed. Just aim a little, press fire, let RNG calculate the dmg...

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2 hours ago, Vaderan said:

In regards of the Montana-overpenetration issue: do we (still) have shell normalisation in this game? I thing, we have. If the Tirpitz shells hit the upper belt with ~5 degrees, it is well possible, the shell trajectory after penetration will be 1-2 degrees, so its well possible that they went through, or just bounced of the citadell roof.

If a shell hits a target, it will lose its speed and strenght a bit, thus the agle of fall will become more steep. Second: we are talking about battleships, where there are several layers on interior bulkheads, supports, etc, where the shell has to pass through, thus it is not possible to overpenetrate the entire ship, if you hit the side of it (regardles of armored belt or the thinner layer above).

Dont let me explain, how base fuzes works on those shells, after contant they have a small delay, but they will detonate. It is possibe (and recorded) that some unarmored ships got over penetrated with AP shells, like destroyers or light cruisers (even heavy cruisers, battleships where they had absolutely no armor, and the hull was really thin), but its not possible to pass through a BB amidship.

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20 hours ago, eraserr83 said:

Battleships are starting to become unplayable some times. Typical shoot&pray style.

 

 

I would value the tears IF you were the BaBy taking that hit and not the one shooting it.

 

"I was sailing like a pr0, was shot in the broadside and didn't get dev striked", pl0x fix WG, BBs UP.

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7 minutes ago, Niibler said:

 

I would value the tears IF you were the BaBy taking that hit and not the one shooting it.

 

"I was sailing like a pr0, was shot in the broadside and didn't get dev striked", pl0x fix WG, BBs UP.

 

Gesus. You either cant read, or just simply being nuts enough to ignore the fact, we were talking about.

This topic is about shells and over penetrations, and not about dealing or receiving damage. If you came here to troll and insult, without saying anything useful, than this is not the right topic for you.

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