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Aotearas

In light of the recent US CV loadout changes ...

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Aotearas   

So, WG removed the AS and Strike setups for every regular US aircraft carrier. Only balanced loadouts for everyone. Can't say I disagree much and I'm still too inexperienced with CVs to really judge the balancing on that.

 

But what I can say is that I have serious questions as to why the Saipan gets to retain its AS loadout?

Yes, yes it's a premium, I know. WG allegedly don't nerf premiums, except for global gameplay changes or whatnot (makes me wonder why the US CV rebalance wasn't considered a global change since it covered ALL regular CVs).

 

 

 

Maybe the more experienced CV players can tell me how I'm supposed to play against an AS Saipan in a Ranger with its 1/1/2 loadout. He gets 3x4 (let's assume every Saipan player halfway worth his salt has the Air Supremacy captain skill, aye?) tier IX fighters. I get 1x7 tier VII fighters. He can strafe out of dogfights for free, I lose a fighter each time. Saipan also gets more fighter reserves. His fighter wing is more flexible, it's faster and he has the superiour number endurance.

 

I also find that those tier IX fighters are annoyingly resistant to head-on strafes, with at times zero losses and the most I've got was two fighters (and if he also strafed head-on, I tend to lose two fighters on average). I'll win that dogfight (unless he simply strafes out and runs to safety with my slower fighters having no chance to catch them), but he can sustain those losses and chances are I won't be lucky enough to fight just one squadron most of the time but handling two, if not three at which point he can overwhelm my fighters with as little effort/skill as just clicking on them.

 

No matter how I look at it, unless the Saipan player is a total potato and either let's me strafe his fighters indefinately without fighting back or sends his fighters over my team's AA, the math clearly tells that the Ranger WILL lose the fighter duel against an AS Saipan.

 

 

Also, yes I know; if I get one good strike in, I already did more damage than he probably will in the entire match. Doesn't count much though, since CVs seem to get very little XP for damage, but much more for fighters, plus winning the fighter duel and ensuring ingame air superiourity is much more strategic value as it opens up those fighters to spot for the team, particularily helpful against any surviving DDs. By the end of it, the AS Saipan gets the better deal with his XP and credits just by shooting down my aircraft and doing whatever damage with his DBs compared to my few solid strikes I may or may not have managed to sneak past his fighters.

 

 

 

In short:

How on earth am I supposed to fight against an AS Saipan in a Ranger? I can handle a Hiryuu, I can handle a balanced Saipan, but AS Saipan ... nope.

If there is a winning strategy, I'd like to know.

If there isn't, I'd like to know if there's even a single good balancing argument in favour of the Saipan keeping the AS setup.

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Back when I played the Ranger 1-1-1, and I face the inevitable flurry of AS Saipans, I simply assumed the bombers going to strike were not going to survive if targetted by the Saipan, sometimes even sacrificing bombers over allied AA or to my own strafing just to take out some of his planes.

My logic was to bleed him dry, as his reserves are much more limited than mine. 
It's not perfect, and hinges on RNG luck with allied long range AA as well as the match dragging on for enough time for him to lose a lot of planes.
It's annoying, but I think that the strategy I gave served me pretty well, with the 1-1-1 Ranger having been overall my best performing CV, depite meeting AS Saipans in easily 30% of my matches.

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Strafe and strike at same time, wich leads enemy choosing either task as priority then exploit the flank enemy is ignoring.

 

Its same tactic vs any setup that has more fighters than you, choose your engagements and exploit the attension split. Also your strafe is alot stronger compared to IJN strafes.

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Aotearas   
1 minute ago, Nechrom said:

How did you play against USN AS for 3 years up until now? That's your answer.

 

The answer to that is: I didn't.

 

I barely play CVs and before the US CV changes I only played up to tier VI (as the Independence was the last US CV to be competitive against its IJN counterpart). Otherwise I played IJN CVs and having two fighter squadrons, even if weaker than a single US fighter squadron, opens up a lot more options to handle enemy fighters, such as locking and strafing with two squadrons, or baiting fighters whilst leaving one fighter squadron to fly with the strike to lock down an intercepting fighter group as your bombers do their work.

 

 

So, if you want to help me, I'd be thankful if you shared your experience, rather than just assuming I'm an expert that knows everything (which appears counterintuitive to me, since I wouldn't have asked for help if I knew how, now would I?).

 

16 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Back when I played the Ranger 1-1-1, and I face the inevitable flurry of AS Saipans, I simply assumed the bombers going to strike were not going to survive if targetted by the Saipan, sometimes even sacrificing bombers over allied AA or to my own strafing just to take out some of his planes.

My logic was to bleed him dry, as his reserves are much more limited than mine. 
It's not perfect, and hinges on RNG luck with allied long range AA as well as the match dragging on for enough time for him to lose a lot of planes.
It's annoying, but I think that the strategy I gave served me pretty well, with the 1-1-1 Ranger having been overall my best performing CV, depite meeting AS Saipans in easily 30% of my matches.

 

Do you know the exact fighter reserves for the current Ranger and AS Saipan?

Because considering the Ranger runs 1/1/2 now, I'd believe most of its reserve aircraft are distributed amongst the bombers, so an AS Saipan may still have the defacto fighter reserve advantage and if he can outlast my fighters, whatever is left of his should have easy work with unescorted bombers.

 

Also, still have the stock hull, so overall I have barely more reserves than the Saipan anyway, maybe the extra 15 hangar slots make all the difference but even if one could potentially win by fighter attrition, that would still assume you'd trade yours roughly evenly with his, which is pretty hard considering he has 3x4 vs my 1x7 for the reasons I already mentioned in the opening comment.

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57 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

So, WG removed the AS and Strike setups for every regular US aircraft carrier. Only balanced loadouts for everyone. Can't say I disagree much and I'm still too inexperienced with CVs to really judge the balancing on that.

 

But what I can say is that I have serious questions as to why the Saipan gets to retain its AS loadout?

Yes, yes it's a premium, I know. WG allegedly don't nerf premiums, except for global gameplay changes or whatnot (makes me wonder why the US CV rebalance wasn't considered a global change since it covered ALL regular CVs).

 

 

 

Maybe the more experienced CV players can tell me how I'm supposed to play against an AS Saipan in a Ranger with its 1/1/2 loadout. He gets 3x4 (let's assume every Saipan player halfway worth his salt has the Air Supremacy captain skill, aye?) tier IX fighters. I get 1x7 tier VII fighters. He can strafe out of dogfights for free, I lose a fighter each time. Saipan also gets more fighter reserves. His fighter wing is more flexible, it's faster and he has the superiour number endurance.

 

I also find that those tier IX fighters are annoyingly resistant to head-on strafes, with at times zero losses and the most I've got was two fighters (and if he also strafed head-on, I tend to lose two fighters on average). I'll win that dogfight (unless he simply strafes out and runs to safety with my slower fighters having no chance to catch them), but he can sustain those losses and chances are I won't be lucky enough to fight just one squadron most of the time but handling two, if not three at which point he can overwhelm my fighters with as little effort/skill as just clicking on them.

 

No matter how I look at it, unless the Saipan player is a total potato and either let's me strafe his fighters indefinately without fighting back or sends his fighters over my team's AA, the math clearly tells that the Ranger WILL lose the fighter duel against an AS Saipan.

 

 

Also, yes I know; if I get one good strike in, I already did more damage than he probably will in the entire match. Doesn't count much though, since CVs seem to get very little XP for damage, but much more for fighters, plus winning the fighter duel and ensuring ingame air superiourity is much more strategic value as it opens up those fighters to spot for the team, particularily helpful against any surviving DDs. By the end of it, the AS Saipan gets the better deal with his XP and credits just by shooting down my aircraft and doing whatever damage with his DBs compared to my few solid strikes I may or may not have managed to sneak past his fighters.

 

 

 

In short:

How on earth am I supposed to fight against an AS Saipan in a Ranger? I can handle a Hiryuu, I can handle a balanced Saipan, but AS Saipan ... nope.

If there is a winning strategy, I'd like to know.

If there isn't, I'd like to know if there's even a single good balancing argument in favour of the Saipan keeping the AS setup.

Pray to see as saipan in game because it's mean that your opponent is a noob , so the question is how to fight a noob ,trick him let he follow your fighters while your bombers sneak by side and dont worry much about the damage he can do with as setup it's really limited

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Aotearas   
5 minutes ago, Torped1ne said:

Pray to see as saipan in game because it's mean that your opponent is a noob , so the question is how to fight a noob ,trick him let he follow your fighters while your bombers sneak by side and dont worry much about the damage he can do with as setup it's really limited

 

*sigh* ... did you even read my comment before posting that ineffectual drivel or do you seriously believe every AS Saipan will defeat itself upon my team's AA, without exception?

 

Once more: how would you deal with an AS Saipan that ISN'T a total potato making mistakes like that?

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4 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

AS Saipan that ISN'T a total potato

 

 

This sentence contradicts itself.

 

But general bits of advice are following:

If an enemy has fighters in one group then bait (not fight) them with your fighters over teammates and send your bombers on a different section of the map.

If an enemy has fighters spread over the map then choose one direction group your planes and open path with strife. You may lose many planes on your way back but your bombers already make some damage to enemy.

And the most important rule is to be patient and wait for the opening.

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39 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

 

Do you know the exact fighter reserves for the current Ranger and AS Saipan?

Because considering the Ranger runs 1/1/2 now, I'd believe most of its reserve aircraft are distributed amongst the bombers, so an AS Saipan may still have the defacto fighter reserve advantage and if he can outlast my fighters, whatever is left of his should have easy work with unescorted bombers.

 

Also, still have the stock hull, so overall I have barely more reserves than the Saipan anyway, maybe the extra 15 hangar slots make all the difference but even if one could potentially win by fighter attrition, that would still assume you'd trade yours roughly evenly with his, which is pretty hard considering he has 3x4 vs my 1x7 for the reasons I already mentioned in the opening comment.

 

Not off the top of my head, but the Saipan should have the fighter reserve advantage. 

 

The trick I found is to bait him into losing planes here and there, and using your good bomber reserves as sacrificial pawns. 

 

 

It's by no means perfect, it's more dealing with a hard counter the best way you can, but it can be the difference between doing nothing all match and doing a low, yet still important 50k damage, along with some spotting. 

 

 

If you have the stock hull, then yes, you have significant disadvantages as the reserve pool is very similar. 

 

 

Just as a disclaimer, I'm by no means a full time CV player, and would qualify myself as average. 

So that's my take on AS Saipans as a CV yellowbob. 

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You just need to do one well aimed strike to outdamage an as saipan , now you are asking how to get air supremacy it's simple you can't and you shoulden't just focus on doing the much damage possible and when possible spot torpedos for your team

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AS Saipan is utterly stupid yes but oh well.

 

It's extra fun when you're vs one in a Kaga in a mostly T5 game as you've got nowhere to hide.

 

Fortunately any AS Saipan will get one awful derp DB so he'll be easy to out damage. 

 

AS builds are the anti fun Police, they even crack down on their own enjoyment.

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pra3y   
16 minutes ago, Sigimundus said:

This sentence contradicts itself.

There is no contradiction in there being a non-potato AS player. Sure picking AS means that they're more likely to loose the game due to having less influence and being very team relient for the win but who cay say those players are guranteed bad at air control or air dominance? 

 

@OP

I dunno if someone has mentioned it already but get into clickfights as much as possible and have the dogfighting expert skill. 1 v 1 you'll shread his fighter. If he groups his fighters together, strafe. If while in a clickfight he orders another fighter to gang up/strafe you, strafe out or strafe at the approaching fighter. Do not be afraid of sacrificing planes overall. Oh and strike all over the map or near friendly AA. Make him work for it.

 

I know how you feel. Had to fight a 70+% winrate AS Saipan the other day in a Kaga. He deplaned me but we won so meh.

 

Edit: I'll go play an AS Saipan game later and help you check the fighter reserves OP 

  • Cool 1

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Nechrom   
59 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

So, if you want to help me, I'd be thankful if you shared your experience, rather than just assuming I'm an expert that knows everything (which appears counterintuitive to me, since I wouldn't have asked for help if I knew how, now would I?).

 

Okay then.

First you figure out what kind of CV player he is. Does he keep fighters close to his strike planes? If he does, how many? If he keeps one or none close then just ignore his strike. If he keeps more than one close, then try to threaten his strike as much as possible without getting locked up by his fighters outside of friendly AA.

Ironically the less he focuses on defending his strike the less you should focus on targeting it. Your main job is baiting his fighters because you have little to gain from shutting down his strike while he has everything to gain from shutting down yours.

Assuming worst possible scenario and he doesn't give a f*** about his own strike, you need to just try and spread out as much as possible. Keep your ship close to the middle as much as you're allowed and send strike planes around both sides and pick one to escort. If your only targets are in the middle then it sucks to be you. Nail the strafe and hope for the best.

Saipan captains can get cocky, so try drawing him over friendly AA.

 

There is only so much you can do against AS (which is why it's gone where WG could take it away). If the Saipan captain is competent then all you can hope for is one or two sneaky strikes while sacrificing most of your planes in the process. Not much fun or rewarding, but at least you end up doing more damage than him.

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Aotearas   
8 minutes ago, Sigimundus said:

This sentence contradicts itself.

 

Contrary to the stereotype, not every player who uses the AS loadout on the Saipan has no idea how to use it. I reckon a good portion just use the AS setup to farm an easy daily Clear Skies for the flags before going back to balanced setup.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Torped1ne said:

You just need to do one well aimed strike to outdamage an as saipan , now you are asking how to get air supremacy it's simple you can't and you shoulden't just focus on doing the much damage possible and when possible spot torpedos for your team

 

Problem is a single good strike, even when it outdamages the AS Saipan, doesn't win games. And against any halfway competent AS Saipan, you won't get many of those good strikes. Air superiourity does. And scouting against an AS Saipan is a hazardous affair for obvious reasons. I could use a spend DB squadron and stand good chances running away from any intercepting aircraft, but I won't be doing much scouting if those aircraft are being forced to run as soon as he vectors his fighters closeby.

 

If we were to be talking entirely selfish about credits and XP, he's going to do a crapton more XP and credits (even ignoring the fact he makes even more credits by default with it being a premium ship) shooting down aircraft, whereas one or two good strikes end up in rather meager rewards considering we'd be talking ~60k damage if we're reasonably optimistic.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Nechrom said:

There is only so much you can do against AS (which is why it's gone where WG could take it away).

 

Which is why I'm wondering why WG didn't remove the AS setup from the Saipan with the US CV rebalance. They can easily justify it as a global change and in terms of balancing decisions, it makes little sense to let the Saipan keep it.

Just do the same thing as with the Belfast/Perth/Kutuzof when the smoke changes hit: anyone who thinks the Saipan isn't worth it without the AS setup can refund it ... though I somehow doubt many people would take up that offer because the balanced Saipan is still a beast.

 

@MrConway @Sub_Octavian @Tuccy, perhaps any words regarding the decision to let the Saipan keep the AS setup?

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Corvi   

Strike and sink him in the beginning. Ranger can oneshot Saipan, and players flying AS are usually total noobs so can easily be bombed if you fly your strike planes around the map border while distracting him with the fighter squad. 

 

It will take some 3-4 minutes, but then you got peace and quite the rest of the round. 

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pra3y   

shot-17_12.13_21_20.36-0119.thumb.jpg.0d81df03a67d3ee6ac8a20b3fb4bad10.jpg

 

AS has 17 planes in reserve, so 1 full resupply for each fighter squadron and then 5 more to wherever it's needed after.

 

shot-17_12.13_21_37.31-0748.thumb.jpg.3d11ab9a6c7fdf3ac8e93bd154b19e90.jpg

 

Normal has 16 fighter reserves.

 

Ignoring skill level for a moment I'll just theorize and say that AS Saipan gives you the flexibility to cover the map but will punish you if you make mistake with the overall low reserves you get. Normal would seem to be the better overall option cause you have more reserves, but you can't cover the whole map.

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pra3y   
41 minutes ago, Corvi said:

Strike and sink him in the beginning. Ranger can oneshot Saipan, and players flying AS are usually total noobs so can easily be bombed if you fly your strike planes around the map border while distracting him with the fighter squad. 

 

It will take some 3-4 minutes, but then you got peace and quite the rest of the round. 

 

A Ranger tried to snipe me just now when I was in 2/2/0. I only manage to get 1 fighter back in time to deal with the TB and he failed in his snipe. Lol I was stationary when his bombers were first spotted as well. Too risky I feel and a waste of time.

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Nechrom   
37 minutes ago, Corvi said:

Strike and sink him in the beginning. Ranger can oneshot Saipan, and players flying AS are usually total noobs so can easily be bombed if you fly your strike planes around the map border while distracting him with the fighter squad. 

 

It will take some 3-4 minutes, but then you got peace and quite the rest of the round. 

 

I never recommend CV strikes, ever.

You bet so much on something which has so many points of failure.

He can easily put two and two together from your planes being absent for the start of the battle. Enemy ships can easily stray close enough to the border that you get auto-spotted. If RNG isn't with you at the time of the attack you can miss enough bombs that he survives, meaning you have wasted half the battle for 0 pay-off.

 

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Aotearas   
9 minutes ago, pra3y said:

 

A Ranger tried to snipe me just now when I was in 2/2/0. I only manage to get 1 fighter back in time to deal with the TB and he failed in his snipe. Lol I was stationary when his bombers were first spotted as well. Too risky I feel and a waste of time.

 

I typically don't do Cv snipes anyway. Chances of success are debatable and it's rather obvious if any player has a normal attention span and notices no strike aircraft from the enemy in the first two minutes. At that point I simply move my fighters near my CV so they're ready to intercept the snipe and I expect no less from a competent enemy CV player. And Saipan fighters are so fast anyway that catching up to Ranger strikecraft doesn't even necessitate him to have a squadron actively guarding his CV, anywhere that isn't across the map is close enough to take heat off the punch and failing to eliminate the Saipan in one strike means you just wasted an entire strikegroup for effectively nothing.

 

Plus I don't want to start building up a wrong mentality considering CV snipes are mechanically as good as impossible from tier VIII onwards due to defensive AA.

 

 

An opportune attack if it presents itself, yeah, but sniping is something I don't consider a worthwhile strategy, it's more of an desperation attack but that certainly explains why it would be recommended in this specific scenario.

 

 

 

And I know, I'm constantly assuming competent counterplay which may be distorting the reality considering the huge skillgap among CV players, but I see so many subpar Saipan players still dominating the skies with the AS loadout that I can't help but think it's blatantly overpowered in that aspect. I certainly can't seem to brainstorm a reliable counterstrategy for use with the Ranger that doesn't bet on the Saipan being an idiot ... and I like to believe that despite my relative lack of experience, I'm not being the idiot in that equation myself.

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pra3y   
7 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

An opportune attack if it presents itself, yeah, but sniping is something I don't consider a worthwhile strategy, it's more of an desperation attack but that certainly explains why it would be recommended in this specific scenario.

 

Same for me, sniping takes up too much time that could be used to do other stuff but if the enemy presents me an opportunity I'll take it. Had a Taiho that pushed too forward and got spotted on one of the smaller high tier maps, Haven. I was flying my bombers around and found him, did a bad drop and then continued spotting him while my teammates wrecked the guy. He called that a CV snipe :Smile_smile: but meh that's what you get for divisioning up with 2 Minos in a tier 9 CV so that they can complete plane shooting missions.

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veslingr   
3 hours ago, Aotearas said:

So, WG removed the AS and Strike setups for every regular US aircraft carrier. Only balanced loadouts for everyone. Can't say I disagree much and I'm still too inexperienced with CVs to really judge the balancing on that.

 

But what I can say is that I have serious questions as to why the Saipan gets to retain its AS loadout?

Yes, yes it's a premium, I know. WG allegedly don't nerf premiums, except for global gameplay changes or whatnot (makes me wonder why the US CV rebalance wasn't considered a global change since it covered ALL regular CVs).

 

 

 

Maybe the more experienced CV players can tell me how I'm supposed to play against an AS Saipan in a Ranger with its 1/1/2 loadout. He gets 3x4 (let's assume every Saipan player halfway worth his salt has the Air Supremacy captain skill, aye?) tier IX fighters. I get 1x7 tier VII fighters. He can strafe out of dogfights for free, I lose a fighter each time. Saipan also gets more fighter reserves. His fighter wing is more flexible, it's faster and he has the superiour number endurance.

 

I also find that those tier IX fighters are annoyingly resistant to head-on strafes, with at times zero losses and the most I've got was two fighters (and if he also strafed head-on, I tend to lose two fighters on average). I'll win that dogfight (unless he simply strafes out and runs to safety with my slower fighters having no chance to catch them), but he can sustain those losses and chances are I won't be lucky enough to fight just one squadron most of the time but handling two, if not three at which point he can overwhelm my fighters with as little effort/skill as just clicking on them.

 

No matter how I look at it, unless the Saipan player is a total potato and either let's me strafe his fighters indefinately without fighting back or sends his fighters over my team's AA, the math clearly tells that the Ranger WILL lose the fighter duel against an AS Saipan.

 

 

Also, yes I know; if I get one good strike in, I already did more damage than he probably will in the entire match. Doesn't count much though, since CVs seem to get very little XP for damage, but much more for fighters, plus winning the fighter duel and ensuring ingame air superiourity is much more strategic value as it opens up those fighters to spot for the team, particularily helpful against any surviving DDs. By the end of it, the AS Saipan gets the better deal with his XP and credits just by shooting down my aircraft and doing whatever damage with his DBs compared to my few solid strikes I may or may not have managed to sneak past his fighters.

 

 

 

In short:

How on earth am I supposed to fight against an AS Saipan in a Ranger? I can handle a Hiryuu, I can handle a balanced Saipan, but AS Saipan ... nope.

If there is a winning strategy, I'd like to know.

If there isn't, I'd like to know if there's even a single good balancing argument in favour of the Saipan keeping the AS setup.

Noooo not this damn thing again. :(

 

Ranger got boosted. Period. Ranger is now 100% better ship than beffore. 

 

You play against saipan like agains any ijn cv which has 1 fighter more than you. 

 

You play defensively and with strafe only. 

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Aotearas   
5 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Noooo not this damn thing again. :(

 

Ranger got boosted. Period. Ranger is now 100% better ship than beffore. 

 

You play against saipan like agains any ijn cv which has 1 fighter more than you. 

 

You play defensively and with strafe only. 

 

Oh look, someone who can't read. I'm talking about AS Saipan, not the balanced setup.

 

You know ... the one with two more fighter squadrons, not just one more. But by all means, do share your experience of outplaying AS Saipans in that newly changed Ranger you don't have.

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veslingr   
4 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

Oh look, someone who can't read. I'm talking about AS Saipan, not the balanced setup.

 

You know ... the one with two more fighter squadrons, not just one more. But by all means, do share your experience of outplaying AS Saipans in that newly changed Ranger you don't have.

U use same playstile. 

 

People's played LEX with 0 fighters for years. 

 

He can not be (eaven with 3 fighters) in same place at once and 1 fighter is not a problem to deal with. 

 

Also his strike potential is so low as AS that you need one good drop to outplay him. 

 

Patients, defend fleet and strike when it is safe eaven if that means 2 strikes in game. He will do less. His bombers do crap dmg and he is low on them. 

 

All ways fight near your AAA. 

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Aotearas   
2 minutes ago, veslingr said:

U use same playstile. 

 

People's played LEX with 0 fighters for years. 

 

He can not be (eaven with 3 fighters) in same place at once and 1 fighter is not a problem to deal with. 

 

Also his strike potential is so low as AS that you need one good drop to outplay him. 

 

Patients, defend fleet and strike when it is safe eaven if that means 2 strikes in game. He will do less. His bombers do crap dmg and he is low on them. 

 

All ways fight near your AAA. 

 

And if you had read my comments, you'd know why that kind of defensive play isn't a winning strategy.

 

 

Which is what I'm asking for, or alternatively if no winning strategy exists why I'm questioning the balancing aspect of having the Saipan retain its AS setup.

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veslingr   
Just now, Aotearas said:

 

And if you had read my comments, you'd know why that kind of defensive play isn't a winning strategy.

 

 

Which is what I'm asking for, or alternatively if no winning strategy exists why I'm questioning the balancing aspect of having the Saipan retain its AS setup.

Saipan will retain his AS setup and nothing you can do about that. They don't change premiums. 

 

Be happy when you see AS saipan because you will win this game. 

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