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Apparition_ZA

Wargaming wtf are you doing

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I have to get this off my chest, I don't understand why Wargaming had to change things with the American CV line. I researched that line for the reason of having 2 fighters, currently on the Ranger and just had a game where I had to watch my team and me get destroyed by a Japanese Carrier. Why? My ship is even more useless to support and protect the fleet. My 1 fighter squadron is always outnumbered by the Japanese fighters and all I can do is watch how his bomber planes just take out our ships. I don't get how Wargaming can just nerf ships as they see fit after we spend all our hard time researching them. Why can't these people release ships and just stop f***ing with them after that? Same as back in the day how they screwed my favourite light tank the T-50-2, which I had bought permanent paint for then one day I log in only to see this ugly looking lego block on tracks.

 

I am not even very active on tanks anymore because of all the insanely stupid tweaks they do. Can they not focus on something like match making and get it to sort players according to personal rating, nah, they will rather go mess around with things that have nothing wrong with them and end up having more bugs after that anyway.

The day a game comes out that can match wargaming, I am changing. I would like to enjoy a game where I know they will not screw around with the vehicles or ships that I worked so hard for. 20k short to finish researching the Ranger but hell, I don't even know if I can go in 1 more battle with that thing.

 

Thanks Wargaming, please try to be considerate for everyone and add a poll if you want to f***k around with peoples vehicles or ships.

 

Edit: I even forgot to mention that I can't play warplanes anymore because some gaming center application is needed. Which I tried and after installing that, ships and tanks was being redownloaded... Which I immediately cancelled as my internet speed is not great and had to restore both folders to previous versions to get my launchers to work again. I mean why?? Why the heck is it a must have application to play warplanes and there is no way around this. Sigh Wargaming....

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I translate:

I dont have any clue of strafing or exit strafing. Before i did pitfull damage and klicked planes to death - that worked against players as bad as me. 

Now i have to get better. I dont want to!

 

I really hope you learn how to play CV or stop playing CV.

You made your teams loose enough games. CVs can have huge influence in some matches - its not fair to give your team a penality at the beginning of a match by choosing AS setup.

If you dont bring a CV in the battle, they dont need you to "protect" them ... win/win

 

Here is where getting better starts:

You lost 250 games but now you can start to learn how to play CV.

Best luck :Smile_medal:

 

 

 

 

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Do you really think, you did contribute to your team? Im amazed you have 43% WR with the Independence, looking at your damage done...

wut.jpg

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Well I had to vent and besides I was not that bad the way I using my carrier, for example I used my 2 bomber planes to go scout while I would mostly control my 2 fighter squadrons and fight off enemy bomber planes and I was doing a good enough job. It worked and it was fun, surely losing 250 games is not entirely my fault alone. Win rate all boils down to team effort right? Although why should it even matter if I am good or not to share my opinion. I don't quite get how someone can accuse another of being bad just by looking at the winrate alone, I'm sure even you have suffered a losing streak, even in your CV...

 

@ForlornSailor: 2 bomber planes, I don't get much damage. As I said, I used my fighters mostly

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7 minutes ago, Apparition_ZA said:

Well I had to vent and besides I was not that bad the way I using my carrier, for example I used my 2 bomber planes to go scout while I would mostly control my 2 fighter squadrons and fight off enemy bomber planes and I was doing a good enough job. It worked and it was fun, surely losing 250 games is not entirely my fault alone. Win rate all boils down to team effort right? Although why should it even matter if I am good or not to share my opinion. I don't quite get how someone can accuse another of being bad just by looking at the winrate alone, I'm sure even you have suffered a losing streak, even in your CV...

 

@ForlornSailor: 2 bomber planes, I don't get much damage. As I said, I used my fighters mostly

 

You were utterly pointless with AS setup, were ruining the match for the other CV and your own team.

The fact that you have to vent here, and you were doing extremely poor damage AND were a hindrance to your team shows that this change was for the best.

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You lost games ...

 

There is one thing that never changes over a big number of games: Its YOU.

If your WR is below 50% after some hundred games it is not the game, not your teams, not luck - its YOU. 

 

30% of all games you loose no matter what, 30% you win no matter what - the rest is "YOU".

 

Obviously what you did - didnt work - so change it. 

WG is helping you! They force you to change what you do and what didnt work anyway..... 

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16 minutes ago, Apparition_ZA said:

Well I had to vent and besides I was not that bad the way I using my carrier, for example I used my 2 bomber planes to go scout while I would mostly control my 2 fighter squadrons and fight off enemy bomber planes and I was doing a good enough job. It worked and it was fun, surely losing 250 games is not entirely my fault alone. Win rate all boils down to team effort right? Although why should it even matter if I am good or not to share my opinion. I don't quite get how someone can accuse another of being bad just by looking at the winrate alone, I'm sure even you have suffered a losing streak, even in your CV...

 

@ForlornSailor: 2 bomber planes, I don't get much damage. As I said, I used my fighters mostly

 

Nope. There is a reason AS is called air cancer... it is crap and does nothing for your Team. 

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Oh look, here are the AS noobs complaining that they don't have air superiority anymore so they can't play :cap_like: Man am I glad to see them gone

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Well okay I stand corrected. Before I started playing carriers, I had seen many games where people complain in game if some carrier has no fighters, now I just learned they are called air cancer. All this time I was thinking I am doing the right thing by having 2 fighter squads and that's what people want from the American carriers. So instead of going the Japanese carrier line and launch attacks on ships, I preferred to go the American and defend the ships from those many many bomber planes.

 

34 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 you were doing extremely poor damage AND were a hindrance to your team

 

Well I wouldn't say I was a hindrance because of poor damage. I brought my part by defending ships and scouting for them or tracking destroyers. I can't blame you for being ruthless, if I vent like an idiot, I will be treated like one I guess.

 

Thanks for the replies, I learned a lot in this short time of my "rage post"

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12 minutes ago, Apparition_ZA said:

Well okay I stand corrected. Before I started playing carriers, I had seen many games where people complain in game if some carrier has no fighters

 

You know, this is a very one-dimensional view on things. People, that dont think about CVs gameplay or have never even seen from the eyes of a CV, dont know what belongs to the job of a CV. For those DD/CL/BB, they get pissed when there is no Fighter spotting for them or protecting them from enemy planes. Its funny, cuz at the same time, they complain about enemy TBs, they dont understand the benefit of the friendly TBs doing damage to the enemy team. And I feel you are lacking to see the potential it can have.

 

19 minutes ago, Apparition_ZA said:

I can't blame you for being ruthless, if I vent like an idiot, I will be treated like one I guess.

 

Its ok, im trying to give you constructive feedback. The others are too, even if they sound harsh. So actually the recent changes to the US CVs is a good change. If you learn to adapt, it will make you a better CV player.

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1 hour ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

You were utterly pointless with AS setup, were ruining the match for the other CV and your own team.

The fact that you have to vent here, and you were doing extremely poor damage AND were a hindrance to your team shows that this change was for the best.

 

wait a minute, all he have to do is shoot down planes or mess up their drops, that's it.

damage comes later if necessary.

I rather see  green fighters in the air than green bombers.

Air cover.

 

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9 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

cuz at the same time, they complain about enemy TBs, they dont understand the benefit of the friendly TBs doing damage to the enemy team. And I feel you are lacking to see the potential it can have.

 

I'm not denying the importance of dB/TBs but... fighters are better.

While the first can smooth the game the last ones can save your ship.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

I'm not denying the importance of dB/TBs but... fighters are better.

 

I beg to differ. Fighters are a tool for reacting. It really comes down to the fact, that you are countering what the other CV is doing. IF (and its a big if for a reason) you manage to play perfectly and counter every move of the enemy CV, thus denying him dmg, all you reached, is a patt. You took out one enemy ship while beeing useless yourself. A Fighter doenst deal damage, it doesnt contribute to the objevtices - it doesnt cap, it doesnt reset the capcounter. Thus a fighter is a mere tool. The real impact in winning the game is done with the other 2 plane-classes.

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CV play rests on three pillars:

- air control

- spotting

- dealing damage

If a CV cannot do all three of these in a sufficient manner it sucks and shouldn't be played. If it can do two well but has to forgo one of them it's equally bad and shouldn't be played. There are no compromises to be made. You either take all or go home.

AS in this regard was particularly worthless since it could only do air control. And that not even all that well. Outplaying AS was among the easiest things you could ever do in CV play once you understood the monumental limitations of the setup. I would regularly deplane an AS CV completely and rack up Clear Sky regardless of how skilled they were. Even had time to taunt them in chat while doing so. It was one of the most boring things ever.

For the sake of the game I am glad to see AS gone.

 

1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

IF (and its a big if for a reason) you manage to play perfectly and counter every move of the enemy CV, thus denying him dmg, all you reached, is a patt.

 

Well, that would imply that this is even possible in the first place. AS was flawed in its very fundamentals as you would always have less influence than the enemy while playing it. Even if an AS player sacrifices his damage potential completely, using his bombers only to scout like our buddy here, nothing will stop the enemy fighters from denying it, chasing them away from whatever he was trying to light up.

An AS player on the other hand cannot do the same thing if you decide to drop your bombs on your DBs and just fly around the map. As soon as he pulls fighters to deny your scout you can swoop in with your TBs to strike whatever exposed target you like (or alternatively bait the enemy fighters into a trap and kill them, securing air control). Thus he either lets you scout freely or he lets you get a strike in. So even if he plays perfectly and denies you any opportunity to strike, he must allow you to scout freely while he himself cannot do the same. Either way he automatically lost and placed a burden on his team by choosing to play such a worthless setup.

 

Having serious strike potential actually helps you in maintaining air control. A fighter keeping your bombers in check is a fighter less you have to worry about when you or your enemy decide to make a move. Fighters alone with no strike potential to back it up are predictable and easy to outmaneuver.

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35 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

I beg to differ. Fighters are a tool for reacting. It really comes down to the fact, that you are countering what the other CV is doing. IF (and its a big if for a reason) you manage to play perfectly and counter every move of the enemy CV, thus denying him dmg, all you reached, is a patt. You took out one enemy ship while beeing useless yourself. A Fighter doenst deal damage, it doesnt contribute to the objevtices - it doesnt cap, it doesnt reset the capcounter. Thus a fighter is a mere tool. The real impact in winning the game is done with the other 2 plane-classes.

 

I wont go so far as that.

At the end, you would do a lot more than that if you manage to "declaw" the red cv. (in your hypothetical scenario)

 

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Capture.thumb.PNG.0cb2ac5e24e7046a5094567e4b2c31dd.PNG

 

Hey man, you need to wake up if you think you were usefull for your team, look, im not a an excellent CV player ( and not excellent in english too, but it's not important for playing ), but i have 2 or 3, maybe 4 x better stats than you, and i was playing with the 1-1-1 . 1 Fighter squadron is enough, if you know how to play, of course. You have 2 fighters squadrons, i got nearly the same planes kill, you have a little bit more, but i did so much more damage than you, Im not saying im an excellent CV player. But there is a problem with you . Play better and you will see, you can get same result in planes kill and be usefull for your team in damaging enemy ships. And you will win so much more game ..

 

Sorry if you feel taunt with what i am saying. But you need to try. Actually you didn't have choice if you want to continue the USA CV's x)

 

You know : The USA CV got bad stats only because of the AS player , yeah, maybe some excellent AS player was dealing enough damage, but it's, like 5% of the AS player ??

 

You need to focus more in game, and you will see that, this fighter squadron can be really strong , even against IJN CV's.

 

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2 hours ago, Apparition_ZA said:

Well okay I stand corrected. Before I started playing carriers, I had seen many games where people complain in game if some carrier has no fighters, now I just learned they are called air cancer.

The reason why many people cringed when seeing a US CV on their team is precisely this. Yes, they were right, no fighters is a really bad idea. But the old AS set-ups WERE sky cancer because they were there only to ruin enemy CV's day, but without actually helping own team. Because the reality is this: any half-decent IJN CV could land 1-2 good strikes during a match even against air superiority US counterpart. These two strikes meant a lot of hp lost by enemy ships. AS USN carrier, on the other hand, could only do some paltry damage with their DBs, having very little effect there. What they could do is spot - but for that they had few squadrons (especially since their fighters had to be focused on shutting down enemy strike capabilities).

USN CVs were just bad regardless of loadout and could only win against enemy IJN CV (as in - contribute to their team's victor more than the enemy counterpart) through

a) significantly superior skill

b) luck combined with bad skill on both sides (if enemy wastes his planes stupidly and you play just as bad but are lucky to not get punished similarly)

 

1 hour ago, Butterdoll said:

 

wait a minute, all he have to do is shoot down planes or mess up their drops, that's it.

damage comes later if necessary.

I rather see  green fighters in the air than green bombers.

Air cover.

 

Seems like you like to lose...

Yes, friendly AS set-up generally reduced your chances of going to port early because enemy strikes are going to be more sparse, more rushed, some even completely denied... What they were ALSO reducing was your chances of victory.

Then again, just having USN CV on your team was bad enough, the strike set-up wasn't really all that much better either (since fighters are important, also to increase the chances of your strikes actually going through).

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18 minutes ago, eliastion said:

 

 

Seems like you like to lose...

 

Yes, I know the cool down times and others stuff.

But just in the other day I was in a battle, we were four, we punched through a flank, we sunk a budyonni, a dd, and a scharhorst, by that time we were two, me and a gneise, against two others bbs, After that engagement only me was what's left of that flank, I was on my last legs, we were losing, our cap under attack, capping was the only thing I could do  and  had time for it or at least to relieve the green cap, but there was a red cv, I wasn't spotted yet, so I didn't enter cap and decide to hunt the cv first, than a TB squadron appeared and spotted me, soon other squadron appeared I was cross dropped to kingdom came, with  DB bombers on the way for me. The end  in defeat by points.

if the guy (green cv) had two fighters squadron to spare we might could've won. 

 

Yes they are stories that goes both ways, but like this one are more has the other way. But still... 

      

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2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Well, that would imply that this is even possible in the first place. AS was flawed in its very fundamentals as you would always have less influence than the enemy while playing it. Even if an AS player sacrifices his damage potential completely, using his bombers only to scout like our buddy here, nothing will stop the enemy fighters from denying it, chasing them away from whatever he was trying to light up.

An AS player on the other hand cannot do the same thing if you decide to drop your bombs on your DBs and just fly around the map. As soon as he pulls fighters to deny your scout you can swoop in with your TBs to strike whatever exposed target you like (or alternatively bait the enemy fighters into a trap and kill them, securing air control). Thus he either lets you scout freely or he lets you get a strike in. So even if he plays perfectly and denies you any opportunity to strike, he must allow you to scout freely while he himself cannot do the same. Either way he automatically lost and placed a burden on his team by choosing to play such a worthless setup.

 

That why I said IF :cap_like:. The IF would mean, the AS US CV plays perfect while his opponent is avarage at best. Then I think its possible. But still - the AS setup wins nothing. I agree, AS was flawed from the start. It would be like... removing the guns from a BB, but in return you´ll get twice the health.

 

21 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

But just in the other day I was in a battle, we were four, we punched through a flank, we sunk a budyonni, a dd, and a scharhorst, by that time we were two, me and a gneise, against two others bbs, After that engagement only me was what's left of that flank, I was on my last legs, we were losing, our cap under attack, capping was the only thing I could do  and  had time for it or at least to relieve the green cap, but there was a red cv, I wasn't spotted yet, so I didn't enter cap and decide to hunt the cv first, than a TB squadron appeared and spotted me, soon other squadron appeared I was cross dropped to kingdom came, with  DB bombers on the way for me. The end  in defeat by points.

if the guy (green cv) had two fighters squadron to spare we might could've won. 

 

See, this is exactly this one-dimensional thinking I was talking about earlier. Think about, what did the CV do before with his setup? How many ships did he damage and thus help sinking or sunk directly? Those would still be around, if he were an AS. And then? The round most likely would have been over earlier. You cant only look at this ONE specific moment and think "D´oh, if he would have a fighter here RIGHT NOW...". You have to see the whole picture.

Its exactly this:

 

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

CV play rests on three pillars:

- air control

- spotting

- dealing damage

If a CV cannot do all three of these in a sufficient manner it sucks and shouldn't be played. If it can do two well but has to forgo one of them it's equally bad and shouldn't be played. There are no compromises to be made. You either take all or go home.

 

Its true. When I see a CV trying all of this, and he gets outplayed cuz of the opponents CV-Players skill - I wont blame him. But if I see, that there is a CV player deliberately ignoring 1 or 2 of his duties, ill let him have it in chat.

 

1 hour ago, eliastion said:

The reason why many people cringed when seeing a US CV on their team is precisely this.

 

Its this "omg, we might already have lost this one" when you are in loading screen, and you see, you have a US CV, while the enemys have an IJN. Then you watch the planes take off in fear... :cap_wander:

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AS was never worthy (Random games) you will always be outdamaged by a balanced or strike setup.

And its reflected on the stats, maybe you managed to take down some planes, they still went trought and dealt damage, more than you will ever be able to do with some bombers.

Btw, first game with Lexi after some months (3 or 4, maybe more) 160k dmg on a tier 10 game, gave AA cover, Im really sattisfied with trading one DB squad for some fighters. No strike player will say this is a nerf, no balanced player will say this is a nerf, no good CV player will say this is a nerf :cap_haloween:

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1 hour ago, Butterdoll said:

 

Yes, I know the cool down times and others stuff.

But just in the other day I was in a battle, we were four, we punched through a flank, we sunk a budyonni, a dd, and a scharhorst, by that time we were two, me and a gneise, against two others bbs, After that engagement only me was what's left of that flank, I was on my last legs, we were losing, our cap under attack, capping was the only thing I could do  and  had time for it or at least to relieve the green cap, but there was a red cv, I wasn't spotted yet, so I didn't enter cap and decide to hunt the cv first, than a TB squadron appeared and spotted me, soon other squadron appeared I was cross dropped to kingdom came, with  DB bombers on the way for me. The end  in defeat by points.

if the guy (green cv) had two fighters squadron to spare we might could've won. 

 

Yes they are stories that goes both ways, but like this one are more has the other way. But still... 

      

You say "if green CV had two fighter squadrons". Now imagine "if enemy CV had no torp bomber squadrons" - would you get cross-dropped and finished off by follow-up DBs THEN? Your story doesn't show how good it would be if friendly CV had lots of fighters (even assuming he would actually be hovering them over you AND was good enough to not have them tied down at the crucial moment by enemy fighters).

Your story shows how the would-be CV-kill (and possibly cap) was denied by a CV that had some serious striking power at his disposal. You know, that thing AS USN CVs did NOT have.

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5 hours ago, Apparition_ZA said:

...I was not that bad the way I using my carrier...

I am not qualified to tell you how to use your carriers, but a good way to determine your effectiveness with any ship is to look at your win rate.  The sample size for your Ranger is still fairly small, but it should be enough for you to wonder if you are having issues.

 

 

                Games     WR

Ranger       96        43.75%    

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5 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

 

I'm not denying the importance of dB/TBs but... fighters are better.

While the first can smooth the game the last ones can save your ship.

 

 

 

Fighters don't win games, at best they just annoy 1 of the 12 enemies you are facing. Bombers do damage and sink ships, they are what you want.

 

 

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Maybe i will try to pick up CVs again now. I basically stopped playing them becouse of AS, as i found the gameplay extremely frustrating even though i usually won vs AS setup. I dont have more than around 200 battles in CVs, so im no expert at all btw, but i did decent im them. But sooo frustrating......

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