Community input wanted for next King of the Sea format

[Domin1c]

Evening gentlemen, we are planning to run the next King of the Seas early next year. With clan battles and new, very good teams playing in them, we need to decide on a format that works for everyone, veteran KotS teams and those that came up in this CB season. Do have a brief look at the wall of text pro/con list below before voting, by adding the standard  or  below the options you are happy with or hate. You can vote for more than one, we're trying to get a sense of what people are comfortable playing As with the last surveys, we are less interested in the absolute number of votes for a given option, and much more in the arguments for why we should adopt a given format. We can see up- and downsides to all of these, and are very open to (constructive!) suggestion.

 

 

T8, 9v9, CV: 

This is ye olde standard, and those of you who have played previous KotS tournaments will be familiar with the up- and downsides. With the MK no longer for sale the meta is likely to change a bit, possibly for the better, possibly buffing BBs more. Either way, we're confident that it'll work, less confident that it's the best option. We see two major downsides here: most teams don't have enough captains to be able to run competitive setups for Tier 8 and Tier 10, where we'd expect official competitive to stay. We'd also likely have to keep banning individual ships as well, which will lead to an overly complicated ruleset. More importantly, clan battles have thrown up new teams that have cut their teeth in the current T10 meta and are playing at a top level. Switching not just to a CV, but changing the both the tier and player numbers is a huge ask, and will put them at a potentially unfair disadvantage to teams that have KotS experience. We are leaning against running T8 for next KotS.

 

 

T10, 7v7, no CV:

hat we're all playing right now - this means all teams have a level playing field to catch up on training, develop and test tactics before a tournament, and captain specs shouldn't be an issue. We're seeing 2-, 1-, and 0-DD comps in typhoon league, so the meta should be quite diverse, and knowing the map, spawn and opponent will allow teams to bring specific comps and tactics, which should be interesting and a change from clan battles. The obvious downside is that going head to head with the competitive format already in the game feels a bit like missed opportunity to do something interesting. We're also concerned that in 7v7 achievable winrates are too low for a knock-out tournament. We don't want stomps, but we don't want coinflips either, and what works over sample size of hundreds of games won't necessarily work over a best-of-three. It's a workable option, but we're not keen on this either.

 

T10, 9v9, CV:

This was played in the MDIV league, so it's a format with at least some testing behind it. BBs would likely be restricted to two. We'd expect the meta to establish itself fairly quickly - think parallels to T8, with cruisers spending more time in the open, at long ranges, and likely more smoke. It does have the significant downside (as with T8) that expereince and skills from this CB season will be hard to transfer to a very different meta. We see it as the 'safest' option, and one that will not require too much testing for us to confident it will work in some fashion.

 

 

T10, 9v9, No CV:

A possible compromise between the meta and the skills developed in this season of clan battles, and the older KotS format. The basic idea here being that with-CV and no-CV gameplay are different enough that this gives teams that got their start in clan battles an equal footing, while somewhat reducing the variance in 7v7. There will be more vision as you have more ships dotted around the map, and losing one player early isn't the death-knell it is in clan battles. On the other hand it’s a lot of firepower. While it looks to have potential, none of us have ever played this before so it would need fairly extensive testing before we'd be comfortable going ahead with it. If you're interested in helping out with that do say so.

 

 

 

We are very much looking for your input so we can make a fun tournament with the best possible format for balanced competitive play. The poll serves as a general guideline, so we can see what the community thinks.

 

Any and all input is appreciated. Thanks!

[MrFingers]

Personally, I'd rather see a bit more of close-quartered gameplay, instead of the "Mexican stand-off"-ish kind of gameplay, where the first team that blinks often looses. 

 

T7, one radar-ship, one non-DD smoke-capable cruiser.

[eXzession]

I votet for T10 9v9, CV, because i think that this format is the most exiting one. But maximum two BBs, one would be better.

[Durin_VI]

I am fine with any format as long as it is Tier 10. But, with CW being without CV, the option with CV would require continuously re-speccing of ships and captains unless you can assign two captains to one or more ships...that might be too much for a lot of players

[Takru]

1 hour ago, Durin_VI said:

I am fine with any format as long as it is Tier 10. But, with CW being without CV, the option with CV would require continuously re-speccing of ships and captains unless you can assign two captains to one or more ships...that might be too much for a lot of players

 

While this is true, one could as well argue that KotS is meant to offer a different flavour of competitive gaming than what we see in Clan Battles.

[Eclaire]

Just to add that we are having the majority of discussion on this on the King of the Sea discord.

 

All welcome to join of course, we're particularly interested in the opinions of those teams that have taken Clan Battles seriously but haven't been playing King of the Sea (assuming of course you were interested in KotS in the first place). We have no idea what your preferences are 

Join link below:
https://discord.gg/46PdbfE

[Durin_VI]

25 minutes ago, Takru said:

 

While this is true, one could as well argue that KotS is meant to offer a different flavour of competitive gaming than what we see in Clan Battles.

Then I suggest to do something totally differently; make it cruiser exclusive, any tier. 

Anyway, it will be a challenge to have dedicated captains for two different kinds of competitions, possibly at different tiers AND Random games

 

[Dr__Bolle]

As long as WG plans to have CBs at T10 with no CV, it is totally disgusting to play K/LotS with CV.

Most players dont have two different highskill captains for their ships.

 

That messes everything up when CBs are requiring a different skillset than K/LotS with CV.

 

#justamention #my2cents

[gekkehenkie50]

For the exact reason that everyone has re-specced their captains at tier X for CW, id say going with the old tier VIII Format would be a nicer option. 1 Tier X captain and one VIII shouldnt be much of a hassle, not to mention tier VIII sees carriers more often than tier X. My question tbh. is about the premium ships we now have at tier 8; Kutuzov is a very competetive cruiser, and now unavailibe to the players who do not already own her, and the tier VIII premium CVs also have something going for them.

[TobiAssho]

2 hours ago, Dr__Bolle said:

As long as WG plans to have CBs at T10 with no CV, it is totally disgusting to play K/LotS with CV.

Most players dont have two different highskill captains for their ships.

 

That messes everything up when CBs are requiring a different skillset than K/LotS with CV.

 

#justamention #my2cents

 

We want kots not to be a copy paste tournament of the current CB rules but to evolve the competitive gameplay further. We see the problems with having/not having CVs and will consider them carefully. We will also avoide collisions between CB and kots so that you can retrain your captain after CB S1 to a spec with AA and practice for kots5. Kots5 will end before CB S2 will start, so that you can spec for how ever S2 will look like.

[YuriyTheHaterTV]

What is a possible date for next KoTs?

[TobiAssho]

11 hours ago, bbowWow said:

What is a possible date for next KoTs?

 

We aim for mid/late jan or early feb.

[konean]

All clans that are interested in competitive, please raise your voice. This is a very important topic! Please also join the discussion in the KotS Discord! 

[Commander_Cornflakes]

Make Tier 9 great again!

[Atherion_]

I will just quote my own post from discord.

 

Quote

As far as ALN goes we agree with the vast majority of people voting in the survey that competitive should always be played with a CV. The question is if it should be T8 or T10. We believe that it is not yet time to move to T10. There are more reasons to play it at T8 to back it up then there are for T10. And with CV present the T10 is even more a glass ceiling for new teams then anything else

 

- most of tournaments in past 2 years have been played at T8, plenty of people are ready for that and plenty more who thought about joining in, had to be preparing for T8. With ships, with captains, with tactics. Arguments placed in survey against T8 are very thin. Not to say imaginary.

- two seasons of LotS fielded up to 8 leagues of up to 10 teams per league that were already trying out competitive playing on T8, so there is less if new teams will show up for T8 KotS then for T10

- there will be no possibility to rent T10 ships for KotS or other competitive tournaments, so the availability for new teams will not be better then T8

- the problem of playing a CV in a manner that is sufficent for competitive playing is obviously less present on T8 then it is on T10

- there is currently no premium ship on T8 that is a must have for your team. None of them is OP right now. Not Lo Yang, not Atago, not the mythical Kutuzov (first ship to be destroyed in probably half of the battles) are necessary to have a strong line up. Sure, it is handy to have them, but the majority of clans have some Atagos/Takaos and Lo Yangs. Not a deal braker here

- last but not least looking at the survey, that's clearly what people want

 

I haven't heard half a decent argument to play T10 so far. All that were given are pushing organizers or WGs agenda, not community. I wonder how many surveys will you pop up to finally succeed in having the right votes? If 1 in 10 is gonna be pro T10 is it gonna be already enough for you?

[Marr1s]

Where is T9 9v9 /w CV, T9 7v7 /wo CV?

[Domin1c]

5 hours ago, Atherion_ said:

I wonder how many surveys will you pop up to finally succeed in having the right votes? If 1 in 10 is gonna be pro T10 is it gonna be already enough for you?

 

Is 2, one public and one on Discord, too much for you to handle?

[BloodLegend]

4 minutes ago, Domin1c said:

 

Is 2, one public and one on Discord, too much for you to handle?

 

Great to see official tournament organizers attack people personally. Making a good showing of yourself on official forums as usual, don't you Dom?

[Eclaire]

@Atherion_ fully one quarter of the votes for T8 in the poll above are from people in your clan. While i commend you on your dedication to getting your people to the polls, I'm sure you can see why we're much more interested in the arguments people present rather than just some raw vote numbers

 

you may however have stumbled onto our secret agenda

[gav_n]

1 minute ago, Eclaire said:

@Atherion_ fully one quarter of the votes for T8 in the poll above are from people in your clan. While i commend you on your dedication to getting your people to the polls, I'm sure you can see why we're much more interested in the arguments people present rather than just some raw vote numbers

 

you may however have stumbled onto our secret agenda

...and these votes all come from competitive players who played in previous Kots, Lots, CWs, OMC Cup, MDIV, IDF, etc (ie. have played most of the presented options)... No one is asking for these experienced players to be given any special consideration...but you made a poll, and are now saying you are; much more interested in the arguments people present rather than just some raw vote numbers.

 

Perhaps asking for peoples arguments for/against would have been a better way to start this thread instead of a poll that (unless I missunderstood you) is next to meaningless.

 

 

 

 

 

[TobiAssho]

This is not a vote and we are not commited to the result. We are looking for ideas and if you have a good argument why we should do this or that we are more than interested to hear that. We will decide on what we think is the best mode and most fun to watch and play.

We have not decided yet so constructive arguments are welcome.

 

p.s.: No T9, because a) less player keep T9 ships and b) it will never been seen as a competitive tier like T8 and T10.

[Eclaire]

On 12/1/2017 at 11:14 AM, Domin1c said:

As with the last surveys, we are less interested in the absolute number of votes for a given option, and much more in the arguments for why we should adopt a given format.

 

That's exactly what we said, same as on the discord. No one's suggesting that those with preferences shouldn't argue for them, but raw vote numbers have very little useful info in them

Going on about agendas isn't really the best way to get me to listen by the way

[Atherion_]

1 hour ago, Eclaire said:

@Atherion_ fully one quarter of the votes for T8 in the poll above are from people in your clan. While i commend you on your dedication to getting your people to the polls, I'm sure you can see why we're much more interested in the arguments people present rather than just some raw vote numbers

 

I'm very glad you praise us for our decication. I'm also pretty sure that our voting was followed by coherent argumentation. I'ts even posted in this topic if you hadn't have a chance to read it yet. I do hope to see more input from other clans, but for now I've only seen one of them on discord sharing our opinion and nobody else.

 

The survey on this forum serves no purpose. Out of thousands or tens of thousands players on the forums, how many are interested in competitive, few hundred? But everybody else can vote, even on pure RNG basis. Why don't you take every single clan who participated in KotS/LotS and then every clan from Typhoon 1st or 1-2nd group. Give every clan 1 vote, give them 2 weeks to cast it and let community decide if it should be T8+CV or T10+CV.

 

 

[Eclaire]

Yes you did make arguments, and we do take the ones you made on board. 

 

The survey is not useless, it gives us a indication of what people's preferences are even if they're not willing to wade into the civilized forum discourse. What it does not do is give justification for saying 'you should do X because Y number of people voted for it' for all the obvious vote brigading reasons.

[TobiAssho]

1 hour ago, Atherion_ said:

 

 I'm also pretty sure that our voting was followed by coherent argumentation. I'ts even posted in this topic if you hadn't have a chance to read it yet.

 

Eclaire wrote exactly these arguments, word by word. I am glad that you agree with us, maybe we know what we are talking about. We, oranizing events for a year and playing top competitive for over a year honestly dont know which of these arguments weights more. We also dont think that there is one simple answer to it.

It is sad that it is so difficult to have a sensible and constructive talk on the internet and forum. You guys are right now not helping in any way to make it easier for us.

 

1 hour ago, Atherion_ said:

 let community decide if it should be T8+CV or T10+CV.

 

We have always made the calls we think are right for the game and we havent been that wrong in the past.

Sorry for being selfish here: If we put in the work, then we decide what to play. If noone likes it after playing feel free to blame us.