AP/HE bombs comparison on T9+ BBs

[El2aZeR]

I compared the damage between AP and HE bombs in the training room on T9+ BBs.

 

AP bombs

For AP bombs I flew 9 strikes on each of the T9+ BBs and then averaged the damage. Both squads were used to strike the same target together.

 

Montana - 21.493 damage per strike

Yamato - 19.795 damage per strike

GK - 21.640 damage per strike

Conq - 19.446 damage per strike

Iowa - 21.264 damage per strike

Izumo - 22.684 damage per strike

FdG - 47.119 damage per strike

Lion - 21.262 damage per strike

 

AP bomb damage is heavily dependent on damage saturation. The initial strike almost always caused damage in excess of 25k, reaching over 30k occasionally. Subsequent strikes usually deal around 15k to 20k. I once managed to saturate one Conqueror completely after three strikes at which point I only got 6k following up. This could be important due to heal, but on the other hand you will probably never fly against the same target more than two times anyway, so complete damage saturation should be incredibly hard to achieve and thus negligible.

FdG is the only T9+ BB vulnerable to citadel hits. You can probably sink her in a single strike in coordination with TBs. Or just straight up nuke her if you're lucky enough (though that didn't happen in testing).

(For a test on how damage saturation affects AP bombs, see a couple of posts below.)

 

 

HE bombs

For HE bombs I only flew 6 strikes per ship as damage was fairly consistent across the board, both damage saturation and nation of the target seemed to play no role whatsoever. Then again with fires being what they are I could never drop the same target too often so damage saturation may become a factor with heal in play, but as I said above it'll probably never be a decisive one since you're rarely ever going to attack a ship more than twice anyway.

Also I obviously ignored fire damage.

 

Montana - 23.353 damage per strike

Yamato - 25.179 damage per strike

GK -  24.437 damage per strike

Conq -  21.050 damage per strike

Iowa - 22.182 damage per strike

Izumo - 23.574 damage per strike

FdG - 21.919 damage per strike

Lion - 21.821 damage per strike

 

On a good drop you can expect anywhere between 20-30k damage, with opportunity to go higher. Bad drops yield around 10-20k.

 

Conclusion

As you can clearly see, HE bombs deal more alpha strike than AP bombs on T9+ BBs (although a very negligible amount). And can set fires. And break more AA. AND properly hurt DDs, too. In addition to that, AP bombs only deal high damage when the target is unsaturated, aka when you don't wanna attack it anyway because all AA is still operational.

So what are AP bombs good for? Well, I flew a couple of strikes against T10 cruisers for the lulz.

 

Hindenburg - around 15k damage per strike

Des Moines - oneshot without exceptions

Zao - either 35k+ damage or oneshot

Henry IV - oneshot without exceptions

Moskva - oneshot without exceptions

Minotaur - 15k+ damage, with the occasional oneshot

 

So yeah, if you wanna hurt BBabies, go for HE bombs. If you wanna celebrate "World of not Cruisers lol" and pray for cyclones or that people dont use DFAA, AP bombs will serve you better.

I would only truly recommend AP bombs for Lex as she has plenty of ships vulnerable to them in her MM spread. Even considering that I would not fault you for using HE bombs instead.

[LongJohn_]

 

Thanks. A lot of useful information. So that was one 7 plane squad per strike in both cases, not two squads?

 

Its pretty much what I thought it would be. Lex at T8 and Essex + Midway share same bombloads even the bomber varies. Same 1000lbs HE or AP bomb and the only difference which to use is what ships you encounter in actual games. Sure you get into T10s in Lex but you also see top tier games where you can nuke New Mexicos, Bayerns and such. Very different than in the other end of scale - Midway - which sees only T10 action.

 

One shotting cruisers can be funny but personally I see things like Minotaurs and Des Moines no-fly zones as they are and striking them is pretty much the last resort if you absolutely have to do that. And did you try what 7 plane 1000lbs HE strike does to a lightly armored Minotaur? It doesnt even have accuracy messing DFAA. It does hurt too. A lot.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Nice, thanks for taking the time to compare.

 

Although won't HE get damage saturation too?

 

When I go get to the Essex and Midway I think I'll still go AP DB as once you've tasted the power it's hard to go back to HE 

[LongJohn_]

6 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

Nice, thanks for taking the time to compare.

 

Although won't HE get damage saturation too?

 

When I go get to the Essex and Midway I think I'll still go AP DB as once you've tasted the power it's hard to go back to HE 

 

After day of hairpulling frustration opinion might change. Sure it smashes nicely when stars are in line but overall way too inconsistent for my taste. Did two sorties to Kurfurst yesterday and did 99k to him total but thats the highlight. 2 squads to cruiser and got 2x800, 2-4k per squad to Yamato...

[RUSSIANBlAS]

3 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

After day of hairpulling frustration opinion might change. Sure it smashes nicely when stars are in line but overall way too inconsistent for my taste. Did two sorties to Kurfurst yesterday and did 99k to him total but thats the highlight. 2 squads to cruiser and got 2x800, 2-4k per squad to Yamato...

I've played a lot of Big E so I'm used to what AP bombs can do and their derp potential. I find BB damage is pretty consistent although vs smaller ships it's very erratic yes.

[LongJohn_]

Just now, Negativvv said:

I've played a lot of Big E so I'm used to what AP bombs can do and their derp potential. I find BB damage is pretty consistent although vs smaller ships it's very erratic yes.

 

Yep. At least its good there is a choice. You can use which ever suits playstyle. Overall Essex biggest problem now is the TBs which are too slow and weak. In Lex they propably do fine but at T9-10 they just drop from the sky. Midway at least has the spares and can send off two squads to overrun AA.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

8 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

Yep. At least its good there is a choice. You can use which ever suits playstyle. Overall Essex biggest problem now is the TBs which are too slow and weak. In Lex they propably do fine but at T9-10 they just drop from the sky. Midway at least has the spares and can send off two squads to overrun AA.

Ah the double TB stack... I still remember it before it was taken away last time. Similar lulz to the triple Haku alpha strike.

 

Oh and if enough of us use AP bombs we might even lower the BB population 

[LongJohn_]

8 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

Ah the double TB stack... I still remember it before it was taken away last time. Similar lulz to the triple Haku alpha strike.

 

Oh and if enough of us use AP bombs we might even lower the BB population 

 

Actually 2x6 USN TB strike is more powerful. You can actually hit all 12 into Bismarck - Amagi size target. It doesnt have to be Kurfurst. IJN have wider spread so you normally hit 3/4 of each squad. In this sense its reasonable to limit the efficiency some way. I guess its also easier to crossdrop DDs since spread is so tight. Its much harder to slip between torps.

 

I thought that later one myself. Is this the WG way to hammer down overpopulated BBs.

[El2aZeR]

10 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

So that was one 7 plane squad per strike in both cases, not two squads?

 

Nah, average damage values represent both squads striking the same target.

 

9 hours ago, Negativvv said:

Although won't HE get damage saturation too?

 

Well, from the couple of targets I could drop more than once I noticed no difference in the damage totals. On the other hand AP bomb behavior was consistent in that the initial strike would always do more damage than any follow up. Only real explanation I have for this would be damage saturation.

My theory is that due to the larger drop circle HE bombs spread out more, thus are unlikely to completely saturate an entire area, requiring more strikes to do so than AP bombs. You could perhaps try to emulate that with AP bombs by targeting different sections of the hull every time you drop the same target and thus get more alpha strike out of your sorties, but question is do you really have time to do so in the heat of battle?

[ShinGetsu]

Gotta love how WG fight BB overpopulation : by making AP shells designed to hurts BB that only works on cruisers. 

 

You have no idea how much I want to insult them right now.

Especially since Midway is basically better than Hakuryuu in everything now. You better stops the IJN grind at Taiho... 

 

I saw a screenshot from thisheep having fun in his Midway yesterday. He baited the DAA on a Henri IV with his TB, then went over him with the DB afterwards. One-shot.

 

So, you want to play your Hindenburg with its exceptional hydro now ? Too bad, if you do, the Midway kill you either with 12 torps or with one AP-bomb drop. Lololol.

[El2aZeR]

28 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

So, you want to play your Hindenburg with its exceptional hydro now ?

 

Whoops, totally forgot Hindenburg in my opening post. She's interestingly the only cruiser fairly resistant to AP bombs (aka you deal around 15k damage with them to her lol).

[El2aZeR]

Follow up test: AP bombs and damage saturation

 

For this I specifically targeted different areas of a ship (in this case, a GK) to see if this method will yield more damage.

 

First target, first strike

Bow section - 27k damage

Aft section - 20k damage

Superstructure - 19k damage

 

First target, second strike

Bow section - 6k damage
Aft section - 13k damage + disabled turret

Superstructure - 14k damage

 

Second target, first strike

Bow section - 25k damage

Aft section - 25k damage

Superstructure - 16k damage

 

Second target, second strike

Bow section - 15k damage

Aft section - 13k damage

Superstructure - 10k damage - sunk with 10 hits

 

Conclusion

This proves two things:

1. The higher damage yield from HE bombs comes from their larger drop circle, making them less affected by damage saturation as they hit more of the ship. Given enough strikes they should suffer from damage saturation just like AP bombs, but the amount of strikes required is more than two, thus thoroughly unrealistic to achieve as shown by the initial test.

2. You can emulate this behavior with AP bombs by specifically targeting the different sections of a ship if you cannot land citadel hits on it, which will result in higher initial alpha strike. The difference in damage however isn't high enough to justify using AP bombs over HE ones, as the ability to specifically target sections of a ship rapidly diminishes with the size of a ship (obviously) along with being potentially impractical in actual combat. HE bombs also still have the advantage in utility, being able to break more AA, set fires and doing good damage to DDs.

[thisheep]

7 hours ago, ShinGetsu said:

Gotta love how WG fight BB overpopulation : by making AP shells designed to hurts BB that only works on cruisers. 

 

You have no idea how much I want to insult them right now.

Especially since Midway is basically better than Hakuryuu in everything now. You better stops the IJN grind at Taiho... 

 

I saw a screenshot from thisheep having fun in his Midway yesterday. He baited the DAA on a Henri IV with his TB, then went over him with the DB afterwards. One-shot.

 

So, you want to play your Hindenburg with its exceptional hydro now ? Too bad, if you do, the Midway kill you either with 12 torps or with one AP-bomb drop. Lololol.

 

 

 

[Battleship_Richelieu]

The problem with US AP bombs is that their penetration is to low to citadel most TVIII+ BBs except the German ones (and even those can sometime shrug off the drop if the bombs hit through the superstructure, which can count for up to three times 19mm with their layered design).

 

Cruisers meanwhile get erased from the surface of the planet without a chance.

 

The only way to prevent insta-deletion on cruisers would be to increase the required amount of armor thickness to arm the fuse, which is quite low at the moment. But to give you an idea, Des Moines and Henri have so much horizontal armor that you would need to double the value for US Bombs and quadruple it for the German ones.

 

Let's not even talk about the Graf Zep with its 245mm of penetration and 35mm fuse (compared to the USN's 184mm penetration and 69mm fuse).. The thing can just delete everything it touches, may it be a CL, CA or BB. Only Yamato has enough protection to be citadel immune.

 

Using DFAA is not even sufficient at moment, with two or three squadrons and such little loss of accuracy when disrupted, all it takes is 2 or 3 hits to inflict massive amount of damages to a cruiser, I saw a Midway suicide rush a DM with its DB with the resulting drop halving its HP, then he simply waited DFAA out and torped the crap out of it.

 

Right now there are several issues: US Bombs don't have enough pen, German Bombs have way to much and both can arm their bombs on to little armor.

[Aschwell]

On 2017-12-02 at 1:18 AM, thisheep said:

 

 

You forgot "GIT GUD SACRE BLEU" 

[Gitaristing]

I decided to run a similar test with Midway AP bombs against all non-DD T8+. I only ran 1-2 test strikes on each target and plan to try the same a few more times and update the results accordingly later on.

Important note 1: For each strike, only one squadron of 7 bombers were used. The results reflect on the very first squadron against a full HP target. Damage saturation will play a big role on the damage of the following squadrons

Important note 2: All strikes were done on stationary targets with the drop being as accurate towards the center of the ship as possible.

Important note 3: I used 0.7.0's training rooms on PTS, therefore all non-T10 ships were using the stock (A) hull. Not sure if this has any effect on the results for any of the ships.

 

Battleships

 

Bismarck: 28k+ damage. Can be easily oneshot through a number of citadels with both squadrons used, depending on the bomb dispersion.

Friedrich der Große: 16k damage.

Großer Kurfürst: 19k damage.

Monarch: 13k damage.

Lion: 16k damage

Conqueror: 17k damage

North Carolina: 16k damage

Iowa: 16k damage

Montana: 14k damage (definitely requires more testing)

Amagi: 15k damage

Izumo: 18k damage

Yamato: 16k damage

 

Cruisers

 

Citadel Exclusive: The following cruisers take almost nothing but citadels. All of them are easily oneshot when DFAA/Fighter disturbance is non-existent.

 

Charles Martel, Saint Louis, Henri IV

Des Moines

Moskva

Zao

 

Middleground: The following cruisers take citadels here and there, but are not oneshot as easily as the ones above.

 

Mogami, Ibuki

Baltimore

Dimitri Donskoi

Minotaur

 

Durable: The following cruisers occasionally take pens, but very rarely/never take citadels.

 

Roon, Hindenburg

New Orleans

 

Overpen Exclusive: The following cruisers have taken nothing but overpens during the testing.

 

Edinburg, Neptune

Chapayev

Admiral Hipper

 

Carriers

 

Midway, Hakuryu: 17-20k damage per squadron.

 

[Reniwn]

@gitaristing I have done a more comprehensive test already, you can check it here :

 

There are other people who ran such tests with much higher number of strikes + with the information that is not directly accessible from the game itself.

Analyzing stuff with a very small sample size and without the full knowledge of the issue is always prone to errors.

[Aotearas]

*Commenting to bookmark for further study now that I've arrived at the Lexington*

[Jagod]

Even for a non CV player as myself this is quite insightful. Do, as a general rule, all DBs hit their target in this experimental set-up? The shown data make it seem that hit ratio is a non-issue when comparing the damage numbers.

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, Jagod said:

Do, as a general rule, all DBs hit their target in this experimental set-up?

 

Yes. The targets didn't have AA enabled and the manual drop circle on tech tree AP bombs is about the size of a DD. It's impossible to miss if you do it right.