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Muppeteer

USN CV changes next update

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Hi,

 

Just been reading the patch notes for 6.14 and it seems a massive swing to IJN dominance in the air. Don't get me wrong - IJN were already winning air more than USN on average (server averages of Midway47.6% vs Hak 53.3%, Essex 47.3% vs Taiho 53.1%, etc etc. Only the prem USN cvs outperform others at tier), but a change that removes upgraded fighters for US cvs, and the option for alternative loadouts will hardly help the situation.

 

I may be missing something, but seems a massive nerf. Getting the option for AP dive bombers wont make you win air against an unchanged IJN cv.

 

Couple of positives - its generally the bad cv players who play AS so it may thin them out a bit, and most people hate CVs anyway so who cares? Expect a lot of very happy IJN players also.

 

I look forward to my vast quantities of refunded xp and silver.

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[THESO]
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I complained profusely about some of the changes on USN loadouts in the feedback thread for PTS and it was completely ignored. Overall I the only ship that is receiving a real buff is the Midway, the rest are the same or worse as they have been until now.

 

Independence remains practically the same in its matchup against Ryuujou with its 111 setup. Ryuujou overall remains the better CV and now it will never meet a 201 independence again so in reality it is a buff to Ryuujou.

 

Ranger gets another dive bomber squad in exchange of not ever having a chance at air control. Saipan, Kaga and Hiryuu will allways have better air control while your own strike, while potent, it is slow and against any competent CV captain it will be blocked with relative ease. This was like this before the changes but hey, at least you can claim it is a buff since you get a fighter in a Ranger strike setup lite.

 

Lexington gets to have the new shiny AP bombs for the USN CV silver line and with then comes the terribly polarizing gameplay in which you can be utterly useless or a God in the battlefield. It will remain to be seen how it performs because it can't be comparable to Enterprise's 222.

 

Essex, now this is the worst part, they have practically made a worse Essex than the previous one and the main reason are its downtiered fighters + downtiered torpedo bomber. The downtiered fighters greatly limit your own offensive capabilities because the combination of Taihou's better fighters and the overall murderous AA of the ships means that you lose your ability to bruteforce some engagements thanks to your superior damage and healthpool. The difference bettwen yours and enemy fighters' is greatly reduced. Your single torpedo bomber squad becomes mostly useless thanks to its lower healthpool and because you cannot perform crossdrops. Your only liability are your DB squads but even so they have never been special and the AP bombs are pretty much crap against enemy BBs if they are tier X.

 

Overall this changes bring good things to the USN line but it doesn't compensate at all for the differences bettwen USN and IJN .

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If you understand how USN CVs play and how the changes actually affect USN CV gameplay, WG is in fact buffing USN CVs to match IJN CVs by making their loadout more balance, which is one of the reason why USN CVs have such poorer overall statistics compared to IJN CVs. Thinking that its a huge nerf is frankly amusing and you're definitely missing the point on this one. 

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[TORAZ]
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The only one who gets down-tiered fighters is Essex. Which will at least theoretically create a state of balance between her and Taiho, as you still win a one-on-one click fight and/or head-on strafes but have to be wary about strafe flanks and enemy AA. This gives both players the opportunity to outplay each other, making such an engagement largely skill dependent.

 

On the other hand I agree that Essex didn't deserve to have her TBs downtiered since she only has one squad of them. Also we were promised stronger AP bombs for higher tiers. Where are they? The current ones are hardly adequate, even seen in their newest update video in which two squads get a paltry 18k damage roll on a GK.

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6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

On the other hand I agree that Essex didn't deserve to have her TBs downtiered since she only has one squad of them. Also we were promised stronger AP bombs for higher tiers. Where are they? The current ones are hardly adequate, even seen in their newest update video in which two squads get a paltry 18k damage roll on a GK.

 

1000 pd HE bombs solve the problem of having down tiered TBs El2aZeR by blowing up all those AA :Smile-_tongue:. A slight nerf in damage from losing that extra DB squad but at least overall the Essex is now more or less balanced against the Taiho where you can deal damage to enemy ships as well as not having to fear being unable to stop the Taiho's fighters or strike planes.

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Yeah was mainly looking at Essex tbh. Was always quite an interesting match vs a decent Taiho, but you are definitely in a worse position after the update.

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Quality Poster
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The USN carriers, in this patch, has just been significantly buffed. The Midway, previously already having the superior air control ability, now also has the superior strike power in all respects. If anything, the Midway's fighters needs a nerf in her fighters. As she is, I have no reason to prefer the Hakuryuu over her.

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I'll have to read the patch notes more carefully but ty for the replies. The one I went and checked in detail in game was Essex and I didn't like what I saw. I suppose with 113 I mostly did fine vs taihos so being forced to play the 2 fighter setup will compensate slightly worse planes.

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4 hours ago, Muppeteer said:

Hi,

 

Just been reading the patch notes for 6.14 and it seems a massive swing to IJN dominance in the air. Don't get me wrong - IJN were already winning air more than USN on average (server averages of Midway47.6% vs Hak 53.3%, Essex 47.3% vs Taiho 53.1%, etc etc. Only the prem USN cvs outperform others at tier), but a change that removes upgraded fighters for US cvs, and the option for alternative loadouts will hardly help the situation.

 

I may be missing something, but seems a massive nerf. Getting the option for AP dive bombers wont make you win air against an unchanged IJN cv.

 

Couple of positives - its generally the bad cv players who play AS so it may thin them out a bit, and most people hate CVs anyway so who cares? Expect a lot of very happy IJN players also.

 

I look forward to my vast quantities of refunded xp and silver.

 

While I can't predict the actual viability of post-patch USN CVs, I have a strong feeling that you misunderstand the reasons for current USN CVs being worse. And the reason is: their loadouts were crap. They got to choose between two options:

 - stock loadout that had less planes in the air, giving neither good striking power nor air superiority (still arguably the best loadout on some ships, from what I heard)

 - AS loadout that had problems dealing any sort of damage (the enemy generally outdamaged you by getting just one decent strike in), forcing you to somehow make up for that lack of impact with spotting that wasn't really USN forte due to lower number of squadrons

 - strike loadout that packed a punch alright but lacked any means of protecting the planes from enemy fighters OR deterring enemy strike planes, meaning that strike IJN CV had a pretty good chance of actually outdamaging you even then - and then there's the spotting advantage that comes with domination in the air (empty IJN bombers were able to permaspot your DDs with impunity)

 

What happens now is an attempt to give USN CVs working loadouts. Even if the fighters are going to be weaker, the ability to have serious striking power and SOME fighters might actually be exactly what USN CVs need to actually contest the sky. While they won't be the ultimate [edited] they were (this honor will go to AS IJN loadouts now), I have reasons to expect them to become (contrary to your expectations) much more viable.

 

Well. I guess in a month or so we'll see the actual results and we'll know who's right. I personally am pretty optimistic. To the point where I might consider actually grinding the tree if I find the time. The old loadouts were putting me off - new ones look much more promising.

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The CV changes are positive.

 

USN AS is finally being retired so everyone can have a go at bombing the enemy unless someone brings an AS Saipan.

 

Lex will be playable now as between T8 AA and your stronger fighter group you'll probably do OK vs Sho attack groups unlike the 3 old decks which compromise badly in some aspect. 

 

Can't speak for Essex but Midway looks good. IJN will still be better for the elite players and in competitive but no one cares about the pr0s and their feelings don't matter :cap_haloween:

 

My only gripe is that AP bombs are for everyone now and the unwashed masses will know it feels like to nuke German BBs without having to pay the equivalent of a 3rd world person's monthly salary...

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3 hours ago, Negativvv said:

The CV changes are positive.

 

USN AS is finally being retired so everyone can have a go at bombing the enemy unless someone brings an AS Saipan.

 

Lex will be playable now as between T8 AA and your stronger fighter group you'll probably do OK vs Sho attack groups unlike the 3 old decks which compromise badly in some aspect. 

 

Can't speak for Essex but Midway looks good. IJN will still be better for the elite players and in competitive but no one cares about the pr0s and their feelings don't matter :cap_haloween:

 

My only gripe is that AP bombs are for everyone now and the unwashed masses will know it feels like to nuke German BBs without having to pay the equivalent of a 3rd world person's monthly salary...

The changes are positiv if all Fighter setups are gone not just the US. A IJN fightersetup can still ruin the new setups day while having a more limited influence on the ship to ship game. Either remove all AS or none....

The real problem in this will be saipan thogh becasue of the stupid "we dont Nef prem " policy.

Is better in competetiv is no excuse to ruin games in random battles if such a setup is taken.....

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14 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

The changes are positiv if all Fighter setups are gone not just the US. A IJN fightersetup can still ruin the new setups day while having a more limited influence on the ship to ship game. Either remove all AS or none....

The real problem in this will be saipan thogh becasue of the stupid "we dont Nef prem " policy.

Is better in competetiv is no excuse to ruin games in random battles if such a setup is taken.....

An AS IJN setup isn't great for striking power although I've had my Enterprise completely shut down by an AS Shokaku with a double NC Div...

 

I can see WG unifying IJN decks too. Preferably keeping their strike decks and making it the only choice but I feel they'll take the opportunity to nerf Japanese ships some more since killing their DDs isn't good enough.

 

But yeah Saipan... Should have locked her to strike and offered refunds or something like 200k Free XP to keep her in the changed format. Only trolls play her in AS flavour.

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10 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

I complained profusely about some of the changes on USN loadouts in the feedback thread for PTS and it was completely ignored

 

As it always is

 

Also you didn't mention the biggest change of them all - you now can play Zuiho without a 99% chance of having an AS(s) cancer Bogue against you :cap_haloween:

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3 hours ago, Spellfire40 said:

The changes are positiv if all Fighter setups are gone not just the US. A IJN fightersetup can still ruin the new setups day while having a more limited influence on the ship to ship game. Either remove all AS or none....

The real problem in this will be saipan thogh becasue of the stupid "we dont Nef prem " policy.

Is better in competetiv is no excuse to ruin games in random battles if such a setup is taken.....

IJN CVs don't really need their AS removed because their AS and strike loadouts aren't as ridiculously out of balance with each other as the old USN ones.

IJN CVs get a choice of a bit of customization. Both AS and strike they can do all they are supposed to do (as CVs) only with emphasis on another aspect. You either get better air power (but still a passable striking power) OR you go for heavier strike - bu still keep that 1-2 fighter squadrons to contest the air somewhat. This flexibility is possible due to smaller squadrons they have and can't be replicated in USN line without messing with their squadron sizes one way or another. And WG seems to be reluctant to do that - hence the unified USN loadout.

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4 hours ago, Negativvv said:

An AS IJN setup isn't great for striking power although I've had my Enterprise completely shut down by an AS Shokaku with a double NC Div...

 

I can see WG unifying IJN decks too. Preferably keeping their strike decks and making it the only choice but I feel they'll take the opportunity to nerf Japanese ships some more since killing their DDs isn't good enough.

 

But yeah Saipan... Should have locked her to strike and offered refunds or something like 200k Free XP to keep her in the changed format. Only trolls play her in AS flavour.

 

Its completely pointless, its easy to get clear sky with the "strike" loadout with only 2 of those broken fighter squads.

As i am playing mine theese days, im starting to beleive that not the Blefast is the most broken T7 ship.

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14 hours ago, Muppeteer said:

Just been reading the patch notes for 6.14 and it seems a massive swing to IJN dominance in the air. Don't get me wrong - IJN were already winning air more than USN on average (server averages of Midway47.6% vs Hak 53.3%, Essex 47.3% vs Taiho 53.1%, etc etc. Only the prem USN cvs outperform others at tier), but a change that removes upgraded fighters for US cvs, and the option for alternative loadouts will hardly help the situation.

 

Oh, and one more thing. The Midway's lower win rate is NOT because of any shortage in her air power.

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For farming CS a normal 2/2/0 saipan is more than enough.

Usually im happy seeing 3 fighters on a saipan - like 99 out of 100 times the player is completly clueless and get strafed to hell even by a Kaga. 

 

The US rework is great - removing the pointless AS loadouts will be a "fun boost" to everyone!

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1 hour ago, return33 said:

For farming CS a normal 2/2/0 saipan is more than enough.

Usually im happy seeing 3 fighters on a saipan - like 99 out of 100 times the player is completly clueless and get strafed to hell even by a Kaga. 

 

The US rework is great - removing the pointless AS loadouts will be a "fun boost" to everyone!

 

I'm not sure about the Saipans loadout yet. Both of them seem to be fine, but the one with more fighters offers more air control + more flexibility in game cause of its great strike potential against DDs

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5 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

As it always is

 

Also you didn't mention the biggest change of them all - you now can play Zuiho without a 99% chance of having an AS(s) cancer Bogue against you :cap_haloween:

 

Thats really a shame. I really enjoyed shooting down all Bogues AS Fighter planes with my Zuiho. Hell, even I managed to shoot down most of TWO As bogues in a single battle (It was some versions ago, nowadays it's almost impossible to meet two AS or two strike Bogues in a battle, usually it's a mix).

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Ijn cv happy ? Hum nah for the TX.

Midway 2/2/2 is just broken. 

Atm the 2/1/2 Midway cant delete a good DD player ( no cross torp with 1 TB.)

but the 2/2/2 set-up can delete DD with Tb and farm BB with DB .

And for sur with 2 US fighters you have the AS

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Dr_Dolan said:

 

I'm not sure about the Saipans loadout yet. Both of them seem to be fine, but the one with more fighters offers more air control + more flexibility in game cause of its great strike potential against DDs

 

Potential against DDs ? With the random "Hit it" bomber thing? Really?

How often does that work? 3 out of 10?

with 2 TBs you can reliable kill every t6-t9 DD without def AA thats alone. Much better option against DDs.

 

The midway should have great DD potential against the typical "alone shima" - guess its as reliable if not better than a haku in it. 

I think thats whats missing on the other US CVs - the ability to securly kill DDs that are alone and without def AA - good dd players wont get hit by a single drop - yet alone getting killed. 

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35 minutes ago, return33 said:

Potential against DDs ? With the random "Hit it" bomber thing? Really?

How often does that work? 3 out of 10?

with 2 TBs you can reliable kill every t6-t9 DD without def AA thats alone. Much better option against DDs.

 

I've only had the Saipan for two days now, but I kinda have the hang of it allready. Lots of people on here seem to underestimate the destructive power of that DB squad. Don't forget! Those bombers are strong and many.

 

What do you mean with reliable? So far I've had a very hard time hitting DDs with torps. The bombers just circle around endlessly and get shot down. Bombers on the other hand go straight in and drop their load for massive damage :etc_red_button:

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Bomb hits are RNG - you can lineup a perfect drop circle and get 0 hits.

A perfectly aimed manual torp cross drop is not on RNG (besides loosing a plane) and never misses if you dont fail.

 

Not that i can do it ever time - but im not a super unicum. The best players hit there DD drops like 95% of the time.

 

Saipan TBs are fast but only 3 per squad - making the perfect aiming harder than the normal 4 ... but the torps deal more damage - usually 2 hits are game over for the DD.

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9 minutes ago, return33 said:

 

A perfectly aimed manual torp cross drop is not on RNG (besides loosing a plane) and never misses if you dont fail.

 

 

There is some of RNG on torpedo bombers. A few times I did a perfect Anvil attack on a small DD, but the two middle torpedoes spreads a little too much and the dd managed to sneak between them.

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9 minutes ago, Dr_Dolan said:

 

I've only had the Saipan for two days now, but I kinda have the hang of it allready. Lots of people on here seem to underestimate the destructive power of that DB squad. Don't forget! Those bombers are strong and many.

 

What do you mean with reliable? So far I've had a very hard time hitting DDs with torps. The bombers just circle around endlessly and get shot down. Bombers on the other hand go straight in and drop their load for massive damage :etc_red_button:

Are you using manual drops or auto? Auto DB are very easy, and very RNG based. Manual torps are very effective but a lot more difficult to time/aim correctly

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