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walter3kurtz

The concept of deep water torpedoes

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As far as I understand the Pan Asian line is using US made torpedoes up to the Mark 17. I was curious about the concept of deep water torpedoes but can't find any information in public sources. 

 

At least there's not much, except references to Mark 15 torpedoes with magnetic detonators to be used for below keel explosions. This plan was abandoned when it was discovered that these detonators were highly unreliable due to changes in the magnetic field of the earth. The waters around Japan aren't the same as the waters of New England. These detonators were replaced by the infamous Mark 6 exploder meaning the US Navy was firing torpedoes with up to 70% failure rate for 18 months after the start of the war, but that's mostly beside the point here. An interesting read nonetheless.

 

I can't find any good sources for explaining the 'deep water' concept in WWII or after. Any of the naval fanatics know more about this?

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7 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

As far as I understand the Pan Asian line is using US made torpedoes up to the Mark 17. I was curious about the concept of deep water torpedoes but can't find any information in public sources. 

 

As far as I know, any torpedo could be "deep water". Rather, when launching a torpedo, just like setting a range and speed, you could set a depth in a way or another. Any torpedo-tube of WWII had that function a possibility, and it happpened that torpedoes set too deep sometimes missed there intended target (case in point, the Kolombangara. A US torpedo aimed at Yukikaze passed beneath her cause it was set too deep and struck Jintsuu just behind);

 

I'm not too familiar with the technical stuff of a torpedo launch but I know torpedoes IRL didn't have a set range and speed that were impossible to change - and, as such, they didn't have a single set depth either.

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That's right, although you would expect to find evidence of this being common and used as a tactic with working technology. It seems there is none of that.

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8 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

That's right, although you would expect to find evidence of this being common and used as a tactic with working technology. It seems there is none of that.

 

Battle-speaking I'm restricting the the Pacific campaign (though I know some other stuff). I don't recall having once ever read that a torpedo was willingly set to a certain deeper-than-usual depth to affect a surface ship, whether succesfully or not.

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A torpedo exploding close to the surface will waste much of its power, while an explosion somewhere deeper will be constrained by the weight of the water above, thus the punch against the target is more powerful. Besides, a shallow running torp hitting a BB could even strike against the main belt and deal little damage. It was common practice to set torps to run deeper if aimed at capital ships.

That being said, the notion of "deep water torpedo" never existed IRL. Any torp could be set to run deep or shallow at any moment before launch just by turning a setting key acting on its balance chamber. Magnetic exploders required deep settings but most torps usually had dual contact-magnetic pistols, and could be used both on shallow and deep runs.

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German Kriegsmarine used G7 with both as magnetic and impact, starting 1939. When using the magnetic, the depth was set lower, so that the torpedo would pass under the ship and detonate by the change of the magneticfield around the enemy ship.

 

Also, a magnetic torpedo could hit a ship from any angle. For the german G7 I know, that starting at an angle of 50°, the impactdetonater didnt work or didnt work realible anymore, thats why they used magnetic torps. 

 

What would be cool, if we´d actually have a choise on changing the propulsion of the torpedos. Germans had G7e with electrical propulsion, very fast & stealthy but only with 4 km range. On the other hand, the G7 TIIId had a range of 50+km but was so slow, pretty much any ship could outrun it.

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1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

What would be cool, if we´d actually have a choise on changing the propulsion of the torpedos.

Khabarovsk kind of had that choice.

 

T IIId had up to 57 km range at blazing 9 kn.

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The concept of Deep Water Torpedoes is minimally to do with history and all to do with WG banging their heads against a wall trying to think of the next cheap gimmick for the next line of ships coming out.

 

As others have noted though usually a torpedo would have a running depth set before launch. A torpedo would usually be set to run deeper with the intent to detonate underneath a large ship, breaking the keel rather than detonating on the side, or on a torpedo belt on ships that had them, where it would likely do far less damage.

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1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

German Kriegsmarine used G7 with both as magnetic and impact, starting 1939. When using the magnetic, the depth was set lower, so that the torpedo would pass under the ship and detonate by the change of the magneticfield around the enemy ship.

 

Also, a magnetic torpedo could hit a ship from any angle. For the german G7 I know, that starting at an angle of 50°, the impactdetonater didnt work or didnt work realible anymore, thats why they used magnetic torps. 

 

What would be cool, if we´d actually have a choise on changing the propulsion of the torpedos. Germans had G7e with electrical propulsion, very fast & stealthy but only with 4 km range. On the other hand, the G7 TIIId had a range of 50+km but was so slow, pretty much any ship could outrun it.

 

I'm not sure about the German tech, I only know that they stopped using the magnetic exploders as they moved into different waters (arctic) because the magnetic field is different and they stopped working correctly.

 

For the US - the tech used by the PADD - there's simply no exploder capable of doing deep water explosions because they had to revert to the contact exploders (Mark 6) which were also awfully unreliable at first. did the US later on get working magnetic exploders? Pretty sure they did but not in the WWII era or even the Mark 17 which was developed around the end of the war. 

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1 hour ago, walter3kurtz said:

there's simply no exploder capable of doing deep water explosions because they had to revert to the contact exploders (Mark 6) which were also awfully unreliable at first. did the US later on get working magnetic exploders? Pretty sure they did but not in the WWII era or even the Mark 17 which was developed around the end of the war. 

 

Im not so familiar with the US Torpedos and their development. Id tend to say, they didnt really use magnetic during the War. I also remember, that the RN invented a counter to the magnetic detonators, something that was put on the hull of ships, which would stop the torpedos from sensing the magneticfield. Might have very well been in a book, that ive read about the Submarines of Kriegsmarine.

 

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3 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

What would be cool, if we´d actually have a choise on changing the propulsion of the torpedos. Germans had G7e with electrical propulsion, very fast & stealthy but only with 4 km range. On the other hand, the G7 TIIId had a range of 50+km but was so slow, pretty much any ship could outrun it.

 

2 hours ago, SeeteufeI said:

Khabarovsk kind of had that choice.

 

And the Lo Yang and the Sims both do have that kind of option... right?

Only, you can't change the loadout during the actual battle.... now, wouldn't that be an interesting proposition for a sneaky destroyer buff?:cap_haloween:

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6 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

And the Lo Yang and the Sims both do have that kind of option... right?

We were talking about propulsion (types).

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14 hours ago, SeeteufeI said:

We were talking about propulsion (types).

 

Yes, but... I thought that different propulsion types were represented in the game by differences in speed and range? And don't the speed and range differ between the two separate torpedo options of the Lo Yang and the Sims?

And... why do I get the feeling that I might have totally put my foot in my mouth, here...? :Smile_smile:

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Just looked it up and and in case of Lo Yang you're right.

 

Lo Yang

Mark 15 - turbine

Mark 31 - electric

 

Sims

Mark 15 - turbine

Bliss-Leavitt Mark 7 - turbine

 

I always thought the difference in range and speed comes from fuel consumption (more range means less speed and vice versa).

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On 11/27/2017 at 4:52 PM, ForlornSailor said:

 

Im not so familiar with the US Torpedos and their development. Id tend to say, they didnt really use magnetic during the War. I also remember, that the RN invented a counter to the magnetic detonators, something that was put on the hull of ships, which would stop the torpedos from sensing the magneticfield. Might have very well been in a book, that ive read about the Submarines of Kriegsmarine.

 

 

Hello

I found this info when I was trying to destroy data on my Hard drive :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degaussing

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first and foremost they have to be fitted with magnetic detonators which (if i skipped the fact that they werent completelly reliable during ww2 ) were mounted on torpedos shortly before ww2. basically the t6 destroyer is the first one which could have these torpedos and destroyers before t6 shouldnt have them

 

afaik deep water torpedos before t6 will be the most drastic deviation from history/ reality which will make into the game...and funilly enough those dds doesnt need those torpedos at all. they could do well with regular ones as well. its just another stupid flavor

 

i would give them just regular torpedos and at t6 unlockable upgrade for deep water ones which would trade some traits of the regular ones. like more stealthy, more damage but slower or shorter range...but to make the whole line focused around them is not worth the push of the absurdity level so much higher

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1 hour ago, puxflacet said:

first and foremost they has to be fitted with magnetic detonator which (if i skipped the fact that they werent completelly reliable during ww2 ) were mounted on torpedos shortly before ww2. basically the t6 destroyer is the first one which could have these torpedos and destroyers before t6 shouldnt have them

 

afaik this will be the most drastic deviation from history/ reality which will make into the game...and funilly enough those dds doesnt need those torpedos at all. its just another stupid flavor

 

 

Nah! Has to be firing from smoke. :Smile_smile:

Think about it....

1) your ship is sat in smoke and cannot see the enemy.

2) a friendly ship comes along and spots the enemy.

3) Suddenly, YOU can see the enemy as if the smoke was not there!

4) By what voodoo does the friendly ship enable you to have this perfect vision?

 

OK, OK it's an arcade game ... but this is not a case of re-arranging/stretching reality to make it fit the game, but IGNORING REALITY COMPLETELY!  :Smile_teethhappy:

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2 hours ago, puxflacet said:

basically the t6 destroyer is the first one which could have these torpedos and destroyers before t6 shouldnt have them

The detection range actually starts dropping significantly at the upgraded tier five/stock tier six torpedoes.

They're still deepwater ones before of course, but their real advantage starts only then.

But maybe it's just a coincidence.

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32 minutes ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

Nah! Has to be firing from smoke. :Smile_smile:

Think about it....

1) your ship is sat in smoke and cannot see the enemy.

2) a friendly ship comes along and spots the enemy.

3) Suddenly, YOU can see the enemy as if the smoke was not there!

4) By what voodoo does the friendly ship enable you to have this perfect vision?

 

radio communication?

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but not just from historical point of view - from gameplay point of view deep water torpedos shouldnt be on low tiers because i can see lot of tier 2 pan-asian dds sending torps towards enemy dds and tier 3 battleship captains dying (and eventually complaining) about invisible torps and have no clue whats going on...

 

deep water torps are just advance technique and belong to high tiers for more skilled players and they should be nothing more than an option for these dds. the whole concept to build a tree around them is just nonsense (even bigger than the pan-asia tree itself)

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3 minutes ago, puxflacet said:

the whole concept to built a tree around them is just nonsense (even bigger than the pan-asia tree itself)

 

I very much agree. However, when I checked Seeteufel's Torp Spreadsheet, the reaction times weren't horribly different for DWTs than the normal ones, not at all in fact. Now, for the higher half of the tiers, that's a different matter... (4-5 sec with base spotting capabilites)

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3 minutes ago, puxflacet said:

 

radio communication?

Verbal comms are just not that accurate (remember the classic: "Send three-and-fourpence we're going to a dance")

 

I did a training exercise at work once where two people sat back to back. (This was so that they could not actually see what each other was doing.)

Each had a table in front of them on which there were many wooden blocks.

The task was for Person #1 to build a structure using some (or all) of the blocks on the table.

As they did so, they gave instructions to Person #2 about which blocks to use and how to assemble them.

 

In theory, at the end both structures should be identical.

 

In fact, Person #2's erection was usually hilarious!

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12 minutes ago, puxflacet said:

but not just from historical point of view - from gameplay point of view deep water torpedos shouldnt be on low tiers because i can see lot of tier 2 pan-asian dds sending torps towards enemy dds and tier 3 battleship captains dying (and eventually complaining) about invisible torps and have no clue whats going on...

 

deep water torps are just advance technique and belongs to high tier and they should be nothing more than an option for these dds. the whole concept to built a tree around them is just nonsense (even bigger than the pan-asia tree itself)

 

Good points, I fully support those suggestions!

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1 hour ago, SeeteufeI said:

The detection range actually starts dropping significantly at the upgraded tier five/stock tier six torpedoes.

They're still deepwater ones before of course, but their real advantage starts only then.

But maybe it's just a coincidence.

 

1 hour ago, AkosJaccik said:

 

I very much agree. However, when I checked Seeteufel's Torp Spreadsheet, the reaction times weren't horribly different for DWTs than the normal ones, not at all in fact. Now, for the higher half of the tiers, that's a different matter... (4-5 sec with base spotting capabilites)

 

yeah. wg is trying really hard to dig up at least a bit of flavor for these hopeless ships. they would do fine with regular torps as well

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