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darkstar73

Gascogn French Beauty on the horizon

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10 hours ago, Darth_Glorious said:

No undewater citadel, it is vulnerable to its own gun.

Not that I'm against that.

But if WG don't change other BB, this thing might be power creeped before her release. Unless I missed something very important...

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44 minutes ago, rigawe said:

Not that I'm against that.

But if WG don't change other BB, this thing might be power creeped before her release. Unless I missed something very important...


For the moment, if she's anything like the T10 France, her gun angles are good enough to be on the verge of autobounce.

Sounds like a good thing. Good players playing with the rudder and baiting shots will bounce tank, while broadsiders will get rekt.

Enough with brainless BBs, the current T8+ FR, and Roma have it right : very good armor that will get you citpenned if you play poorly, but tank very reliably if you play well.
 

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1 hour ago, Exocet6951 said:

Enough with brainless BBs, the current T8+ FR, and Roma have it right : very good armor that will get you citpenned if you play poorly, but tank very reliably if you play well.

I don't know the number but how is the armour compared to other BB?

 

If it's more or less the same on average that's what I fear.

Good player will play them, but what about the majority? I mean it look like she will be more or less like tirpitz / bismarck. Except both of them would be way more forgiving.

 

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On 17/01/2018 at 7:22 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

What is the secondary artillery on this beauty like?

 

The gun dispersion tastes Tirpitzy - maybe the Secondaries as well...?

Looks like two superfiring triple-gun turret secondaries, superfiring over the forward main battery turret and a third over the rear turret.

 

Looks pretty cool.

 

17 hours ago, SovietFury43 said:

WOW 

 

2x4 380mm?! Looks like you are going to have to expose your whole citadel to fire that rear turret. And if you ever lose one, there goes half of your main battery.

25km main battery range plus spotting aircraft though - push supported, I guess.

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Secondaries on Gascogne are not really good due to short range.

If you want to sacrifice the -7% dispersion module to buff secondaries range than your main gun becomes trollish as hell.

France and Alsace are more suited for secondaries build.

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5 hours ago, Darth_Glorious said:

Secondaries on Gascogne are not really good due to short range.

If you want to sacrifice the -7% dispersion module to buff secondaries range than your main gun becomes trollish as hell.

France and Alsace are more suited for secondaries build.

 

Damn! I like fireworks just for the noise it makes (less so the actual damage). What is the range? Have seen 5 and 7km - which one is right? Apart from range, how effective are the Secondaries? Aren’t they HE?

 

Also - how tanky is she? I mean having an actual citadel isn’t an issue, Kii and Amagi have that as well and can still tank a fair amount of incoming presents.

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1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Damn! I like fireworks just for the noise it makes (less so the actual damage). What is the range? Have seen 5 and 7km - which one is right? Apart from range, how effective are the Secondaries? Aren’t they HE?

 

Also - how tanky is she? I mean having an actual citadel isn’t an issue, Kii and Amagi have that as well and can still tank a fair amount of incoming presents.

If you don´t have the extended tech tree so do i strongly recomend that you install it :) Gascogne have good armor imo. 320mm and turtleback layout. Turrets have 430mm thick armor. Atwarthship have 233mm. Deck have a thinkness of 150mm-170mm. So i think she looks really strong :) 

Seconday have a range of 7km Base range. So built for secondary will she have just short of 10km range. 8x2 100mm. Reload 4sec. 1400hp HE 3x152mm Reload 12sec. 2200hp HE. 

Think she will be a great brawler :Smile_great:

Skärmbild (288).png

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8 hours ago, rigawe said:

I don't know the number but how is the armour compared to other BB?

 

If it's more or less the same on average that's what I fear.

Good player will play them, but what about the majority? I mean it look like she will be more or less like tirpitz / bismarck. Except both of them would be way more forgiving.

 

 

Alright, I'm checking on gamemodels3d as we speak.

I will be compared to the NC, which is the only regular and very often seen T8 BB with a citadel and no autobounce turtleback, and a shining example of what a BB should be, minus maybe a detail or two here. (*cough AA*)

First of all, sectors of fire: both turrets can fire when angled at 36 degrees. That's autobouncing some shots with the main belt. Not too sure about the bow, there's a chance that depending on the geometry of the bow itself, it might locally be less than 36 degrees whenyour ship is overall angled at 36 degrees (think Iowa's tapered bow). That's a detail though.
Overall, sectors of fire means that you're very safe when using both guns.

The NC can angle at 33 degrees while using all three turrets, so both are very similar in that respect, and with some good rudder work, can both reliably tank everything but 460mm AP.

 

 

Turrets and barbettes are both very well protected, though the NC's turret face is more angled, so does present more effective armor, while the Gascogne is slightly thicker but not enough to compensate.

As far as the main belt goes, the Gascogne has a 320mm belt on a negative slope (very nice to have against plunging hits) with a 50mm turtleback and a 30 to 40mm citadel (40 near the gun, 30 at the center). I'm not sure it counts, but it also has 32mm plating over it all. If someon can clear that up, I'd be grateful.
So it's 320+50+30mm (not simply additive) at the weakest, and potentially 320mm+50+40+32mm at the thickest. All with interesting, though not gamechanging internal angling.

The NC has a 305mm main belt at the same negative slope, with a 50mm citadel behind it. 
It's much less armored, losing out on both the main belt and the turtleback.

 

 

What the NC does simply better than the Gascogne in terms of armor is the 37mm deck mid ship, compared to only 32mm (IFHE relevant), and having a superstructure that tapers with height, leading to smaller volume and silhouette, and less likely to hit stray shells that went too high. Only playing it will show if it's significant or not.



Overall, the Gascogne compared to the NC is extremely well protected for its tier, more comparable to a BB with 400mm citadel belt like the Yamato in terms of thickness, but with all the advantages of a belt+citadel arrangement.

If the guns are reliable, it will be a very core-solid ship.

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16 minutes ago, darkstar73 said:

If you don´t have the extended tech tree so do i strongly recomend that you install it :) Gascogne have good armor imo. 320mm and turtleback layout. Turrets have 430mm thick armor. Atwarthship have 233mm. Deck have a thinkness of 150mm-170mm. So i think she looks really strong :) 

Seconday have a range of 7km Base range. So built for secondary will she have just short of 10km range. 8x2 100mm. Reload 4sec. 1400hp HE 3x152mm Reload 12sec. 2200hp HE. 

Think she will be a great brawler :Smile_great:

Skärmbild (288).png

 

Wow that sounds extremely promising! 7km base range is great, I mean even if you slot the primary module and only spec the captain to 2ndaries (+ Flag) you’ll get about 9km range which is sufficient I would say. Maybe  I’ll give that setup a shot :-)

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5 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Wow that sounds extremely promising! 7km base range is great, I mean even if you slot the primary module and only spec the captain to 2ndaries (+ Flag) you’ll get about 9km range which is sufficient I would say. Maybe  I’ll give that setup a shot :-)

Yes. I think she will be a threat to Tirpitz/Bismarck :) Withod doubt a very interesting ship. And very goodlooking. But few ship are as beautiful as Guilio Cesare and Roma :) Just tested Roma in COOP: Looks very fun. Turret traverse is insane :) And really hard hitting guns. :cap_rambo:

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26 minutes ago, Darth_Glorious said:

The armour is not so strong as you think. It is OK if angled correctly.

Why not? Gascogne´s armored belt have the same thickness as Bismarck. 

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"Beauty" Inb4 large Baguette gets stuck on her superstructure VIVE LA FRANCE

I thought she would be like a super Richelieu, but apparantly a pre France design.... Hopefully not as much as the GK+Conqueror thing

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7 minutes ago, darkstar73 said:

Why not? Gascogne´s armored belt have the same thickness as Bismarck. 

But Bismarck has extra 120 mm turtle back armour at 56 degrees from vertical while Gascogne has only 50 mm turtle back at 36 degrees from vertical. The slope of German BB is much more superior which can bounce shot at short range while Gascogne cannot.

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I just hope that they leave the secondaries range at 7km. Supposedly the secondaries of the Richelieu on Supertest, were nerfed back to 5km. Would be a shame to ruin a possible secondaries build for the Gascogne.

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On 11/26/2017 at 12:48 PM, Streef_ said:

looks nice but bad rear turret angles will completely kill her

Not so sure about that, my friend. After all, we are at the "Bow-tanking meta" as some have called it (I don't know what the heck "meta" actually means but annyhoot) so rear turrets generally have the combat value of a flower-vase anyways. So unless that changes in some way allowing ships to go more for broadside firing as the main method of combat I do not see how that would be much of a hindrance, as long as the bow turrets work, that is. :Smile_Default:

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59 minutes ago, Darth_Glorious said:

The armour is not so strong as you think. It is OK if angled correctly.

 

Well of course, it remains some 400-420mm effective without any autobounce angles. If you screw up, you get citpenned. But that's a good thing.
From my point of view of someone not having played it, it does look like it offer very good protection for what it is : a BB without any hand holding "lolturtleback" or "submarine citadel" cheese tactics.

 


 

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Wow that sounds extremely promising! 7km base range is great, I mean even if you slot the primary module and only spec the captain to 2ndaries (+ Flag) you’ll get about 9km range which is sufficient I would say. Maybe  I’ll give that setup a shot :-)

 

I'm still seeing 5km base secondary range in GM3D though, and with awful reload on the 152s, they're not very useful.
And 100mm secondaries are only good for setting fires.

 

It works on the Bismarck because the 105s fire even faster and the 150mm turrets have enough base HE pen to damage all but armored decks and belt armor, but I've seen screenshots of someone tanking literally hundreds of Alsace 100mm and 152mm secondary hits and receiving literally 0 damage.


I really wouldn't recommend a secondary build on anything but German ships for that very reason: no other nation has that combination of 
a) very long range

b) very fast firing fire setting guns with high velocity
c)  high HE penetration, slower firing 15Xmm guns that deal damage
OR
d) combining it all with 128mm guns that fire quickly at long range with high HE pen

Every other branch manages to have one or two of those first three things, but without all three, you're just firing fireworks. FR BBs won't be the exception, even if you spec IFHE.

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Yeah, @Exocet6951 as a dedicated IJN fan. I did try secondary build on them, as I'd very much prefer tanking to sniping. That did not go well, so now I have given up trying and acquiesced to the inevitable. A pity really but sadly and as much as it pains me to admit it, my otherwise supremely lovable IJN BB's just don't have what it takes to tank. :Smile_sad:

 

Bismarck on the other hand... :cap_haloween:

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Just now, RAHJAILARI said:

Yeah, @Exocet6951 as a dedicated IJN fan. I did try secondary build on them, as I'd very much prefer tanking to sniping. That did not go well, so now I have given up trying and acquiesced to the inevitable. A pity really but sadly and as much as it pains me to admit it, my otherwise supremely lovable IJN BB's just don't have what it takes to tank. :Smile_sad:

 

Bismarck on the other hand... :cap_haloween:

 

It's too bad, because the Nagato, Amagi and Yamato did have a semi-viable secondary builds before KM BBs came along.
Very semi.
More for the lulz than anything.
Then KM BBs came along and completely changed the nature of what's needed in secondaries. Anything that doesn't conform to what they have is simply vastly inferior.
Hell, I remember people using their Warspites as secondary boats when it first came out, and were showing off 20-30k secondary damage battles (including fires) as if it were mindblowing.

Yeah...


That doesn't stop me from trololol'ing with a secondary Yammie in coop from time to time :Smile_teethhappy:

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11 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Well of course, it remains some 400-420mm effective without any autobounce angles. If you screw up, you get citpenned. But that's a good thing.
From my point of view of someone not having played it, it does look like it offer very good protection for what it is : a BB without any hand holding "lolturtleback" or "submarine citadel" cheese tactics.

 


 

 

I'm still seeing 5km base secondary range in GM3D though, and with awful reload on the 152s, they're not very useful.
And 100mm secondaries are only good for setting fires.

 

It works on the Bismarck because the 105s fire even faster and the 150mm turrets have enough base HE pen to damage all but armored decks and belt armor, but I've seen screenshots of someone tanking literally hundreds of Alsace 100mm and 152mm secondary hits and receiving literally 0 damage.


I really wouldn't recommend a secondary build on anything but German ships for that very reason: no other nation has that combination of 
a) very long range

b) very fast firing fire setting guns with high velocity
c)  high HE penetration, slower firing 15Xmm guns that deal damage
OR
d) combining it all with 128mm guns that fire quickly at long range with high HE pen

Every other branch manages to have one or two of those first three things, but without all three, you're just firing fireworks. FR BBs won't be the exception, even if you spec IFHE.

 

Very well possible that you are right. However it would be hilarious fun to have such build. I mean they are never super efficient (maybe apart from Bissy/Turpitz) but the builds are fun. I even have a secondary build on Roon which isn’t the most efficient (like DE+CE) but it’s a lot of fun.

 

So while I see your point and I am sad to hear the range got cut back to 5km I will keep my semi-secondary build in mind to potentially test it (in case the range will be 7km only though). I am not overly concerned about the Turtleback and citadel. I am fine with working around it (hot news: BBs do have a rudder... :-))

 

Can’t wait for this ship!

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Yeah @Exocet6951, but I do think it would make sense to have at the least 1 other BB line, which would have the possibility of a somewhat viable secondary build, just for competition's sake you know and also... More options there are to try the more fun the game right? I really hate it, when there really is only 1 viable build for a ship, that gets boring very fast.:fish_sleep: )Ok granted, I am fickle, but this IS supposed to be for fun too).

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Just now, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Very well possible that you are right. However it would be hilarious fun to have such build. I mean there are never super efficient (maybe apart from Bissy/Turpitz) but the builds are fun. I even have a secondary build on Roon which isn’t the most efficient (like DE+CE) but it’s a lot of fun.

 

So while I see your point and I am sad to hear the range got cut back to 5km I will keep my semi-secondary build in mind to potentially test it (in case the range will be 7km only though). I am not overly concerned about the Turtleback and citadel. I am fine with working around it (hot news: BBs do have a rudder... :-))

 

Can’t wait for this ship!

 

You know what? Go for it.
Have fun with it, that's what the game is about. It won't be competitive in the strictest definition, but it you make it work for yourself then there's really no more need to explain or justify it.
After all, from a meta game perspective, even rainbow marshmallow secondaries can be worth it if you take into account the psychological pressure of it.


And I'm extremely excited to have a branch of BBs (well, at least past T7) with citadels again ! 
I'm a strong advocate of having ships that are punished if they're played poorly. Being kept on your toes makes you play better and be more engaged in battle.

 

 

The ship, along with higher tier FR BBs all look really good. I'm excited to see them ingame. Both in my hands and in my crosshairs.

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Since i am an a person who often closes in the distance, Gascogne will infact recieve all the secondary buffs in my port.

 

I have found myself often below 7.6km, especially in ranked. And while the reload on the 152mm's is slow, we are still talking about 9 152mm barrels and 12 100mm one's. This time, with alot more firepower then the germans, and more fire chance

 

Very competitive? no, but i dislike meta anyway. 

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