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JollyRoger1516

GZ Stuka Airspeed

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Ok slightly angry question.

 

Can somebody please explain to me how the Stukas are completely outrunning fighters? They are supposed to have a flight speed of 135knots but I can barely keep up with my fighters while they have bombs on and after their drop they seem to turn into jet fighters and outrun absolutely everything.

Given that for example Hellcats had a max speed of 629kmh (not the number in game I know) and Stukas had one of around 390kmh I cant really understand who they would outrun everybody... This should somehow transition into the game while currently the Stukas unless spotted early are completely immune from being hunted down by fighters (not even mentioning that big block of fighters)...

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18 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

They are supposed to have a flight speed of 135knots  [... ] Stukas had one of around 390kmh [...] This should somehow transition into the game

 

Yea... you are right! So we must increase the speed from 135 kn to 211 kn. Thats what you just said.

 

Before you start to argue with me - my next answer will be:

9 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

Real speed doesn't matter, it's all about game balance.

 

This.

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The thing abut game balance is that this means they are effectively untouchable unless they fly into the fighters. That's not balanced.

Especially GZ's are completely ignoring covering their strike wave knowing that they will just outrun any dangers.

If this is for balance sake then you could simply make them 20% slower while carrying bombs then the fighters at that tier thereby making interceptions (and therefore covering) a thing and once the bombs are gone they are only 5% slower thereby not completely foregoing covering but at the same time also allowing them to emergency drop and buy themselves a significantly higher chance of survival.

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Stuka ingame speed: 135kn (with bombs)

Corsair ingame speed (Lex fighters): 169kn

Shiden ingame speed (Shokaku fighters): 171kn

Hellcat ingame speed (Enterprise fighters): 166kn

 

So unless they've dropped their bombs (which gives them enough of a speed boost to outrun fighters, a feature that applies to all bombers) GZ bombers cannot outrun contemporary fighters. I certainly never had problems catching them when playing both Enterprise and Shokaku.

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As I'm not testing the GZ I'll just not comment on it...

 

But when I red the title for the 1st time I managed to miss the "t" in the Stukas so I opened this expecting something rather funny not just a question about stats :cap_haloween:

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You are aware that if you make the bombers slower than the fighters even after the drop, they can simply be farmed after they have dropped which would drain the CV of its reserves quite quickly? Especially the ones that already lost their fighters to escort the bombers to the target and the current USN CVs (below tier IX?) which don't have any fighters while using the strike deck.

 

I sometime curse, too, that I can't catch enemy bombers after they have dropped. But you should intercept and destroy them BEFORE they drop anyway.

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Ju 87 C 135 kn

ME 109 T 175 kn

Gumman F6F 166 kn (Enterprise)

Vought F4u-1 169 kn (Lexi)

Kawanishi N1K5-A 171 kn (Shokaku)

 

Ju 87 even with Bombs droped dont outrun anything. If they have a good headstart you might have troble catching them before they reach friendly AA cover but thats it.

 

Edit: well just waking up just seeing the OP compares real live values This game is arcade not a simulator. Even if it was neither planes nor ships traveled at their max speed becasue that would servely limit their range, You usally only had small windows were you flew/traveled at max speed. ......and E2aZeR allready did teh speed comparison...

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Additionally scales are pretty off in this game.

As already said, balance, arcade, ...

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On 24. 11. 2017 at 11:21 PM, Commander_Cornflakes said:

Real speed doesn't matter, it's all about game balance.

 

stupid balance excuses again...what about balance them around actual data or pick other plane which fits the data...would require too much thinking i suppose

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5 hours ago, puxflacet said:

pick other plane which fits the data

 

Even the lowest tier planes (aka some of the first carrier-based planes) have irl top speeds that far exceed the ingame speed of even T10 aircraft.

So yeah, that's not exactly an option.

For example, a F3F biplane fighter (Langley upgraded fighters) has a top speed of 229kn. An ingame F8F fighter (Midway upgraded fighters) flies at 181kn.

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On 11/25/2017 at 9:25 AM, Spellfire40 said:

Ju 87 C 135 kn

ME 109 T 175 kn

Gumman F6F 166 kn (Enterprise)

Vought F4u-1 169 kn (Lexi)

Kawanishi N1K5-A 171 kn (Shokaku)

 

Ju 87 even with Bombs droped dont outrun anything. If they have a good headstart you might have troble catching them before they reach friendly AA cover but thats it.

 

Edit: well just waking up just seeing the OP compares real live values This game is arcade not a simulator. Even if it was neither planes nor ships traveled at their max speed becasue that would servely limit their range, You usally only had small windows were you flew/traveled at max speed. ......and E2aZeR allready did teh speed comparison...

I have now on several occasions chased Stukas and they managed to drop out of visual range on open water without a cyclone. That is only possible if they actually outran the fighters. I am fully aware of these numbers hence why I asked my question in the first place.

I am also fully aware about regular travel speeds of planes. However the speed differences would still show even at 60% flight throttle (each). In addition given the chase scenario only a pilot who still has one hell of a long trip ahead of him would not utilise WEP at that stage.

Real live values are a reference point nothing more. At not stage did I say adhere 100% to these values. SO instead of going on a rant about my question and suggestions how about you get that stick out of your arse and actually try to have a sensible talk instead of just bashing at stuff.

 

On 11/25/2017 at 9:00 AM, Tungstonid said:

You are aware that if you make the bombers slower than the fighters even after the drop, they can simply be farmed after they have dropped which would drain the CV of its reserves quite quickly? Especially the ones that already lost their fighters to escort the bombers to the target and the current USN CVs (below tier IX?) which don't have any fighters while using the strike deck.

 

I sometime curse, too, that I can't catch enemy bombers after they have dropped. But you should intercept and destroy them BEFORE they drop anyway.

Indeed you should intercept them prior as a full value for your team. However catching them after the drop still means preventing future attacks (after you got a few). Making the bombers slower than fighters means that fighters have to cover the strike group - quite a realistic scenario in fact. As I stated I am only asking for a slight advantage for the fighters (once bombs have been dropped). They are not supposed to catch up from the other side of the map but only when already close by and in pursuit. Currently dropping bombs is a get away free while providing no cover whatsoever card.

And a CV that has lost all of his fighters usually is quite crap in the first place or at this stage needs to play very carefully. Wasting your fighters should actually have an impact other then being camped.

 

I really don't get why people always think that balanced gameplay can't have reference values and scenarios from real life. It is actually really not that hard and nobody asked for a 1:1 transition.

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4 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

SO instead of going on a rant about my question and suggestions how about you get that stick out of your arse and actually try to have a sensible talk instead of just bashing at stuff.

 

I see you know how to practice that "sensible talk" perfectly yourself...

 

7 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

And a CV that has lost all of his fighters usually is quite crap in the first place or at this stage needs to play very carefully. Wasting your fighters should actually have an impact other then being camped.

 

If you cant stop a CV, that has lost all his fighters, from flying in, dropping & flying back home - then you are doing something wrong. Adjusting the speed by a few knots wont help you.

 

8 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

. Currently dropping bombs is a get away free while providing no cover whatsoever card.

 

If the guy drops his bombs somewhere, just to escape beeing caught by your fighters, he lost a lot of time. He needs to fly back, rearm, start again. Aditional to the time he spent, flying to that point, where he dropped. Time is limited, especially fpr a CV. In a scenario like this, it wouldnt actually matter if you catch his bombers or not. He couldnt deal damage or spot, thus was useless for a few minutes. What are you complaining? Its selfish thinking, that only a shot down plane is good. A CV, that is constantly denied to attac, is as valueable as an afk or dead CV.

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17 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

I see you know how to practice that "sensible talk" perfectly yourself...

I'm Scottish and I live in Ireland mate. That is still the diplomatic stage :P

 

17 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

If you cant stop a CV, that has lost all his fighters, from flying in, dropping & flying back home - then you are doing something wrong. Adjusting the speed by a few knots wont help you.

Wasn't talking about adjusting speeds for the air dominance. Please read carefully. Once I got air dom I will literally just camp the enemy CV with anything that isn't spotting DDs, etc. He wouldn't even take off. However mid game the fact that CVs feel no need to cover their planes is what grinds my gears.

 

17 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

If the guy drops his bombs somewhere, just to escape beeing caught by your fighters, he lost a lot of time. He needs to fly back, rearm, start again. Aditional to the time he spent, flying to that point, where he dropped. Time is limited, especially fpr a CV. In a scenario like this, it wouldnt actually matter if you catch his bombers or not. He couldnt deal damage or spot, thus was useless for a few minutes. What are you complaining? Its selfish thinking, that only a shot down plane is good. A CV, that is constantly denied to attac, is as valueable as an afk or dead CV.

And again you miss the point entirely. Nobody was actually talking about emergency drops. But even if we are. It should not do more then buy him time. While yes this was still useful and clearly sort of a win (please bear in mind anything that isn't a kill of sorts doesn't get you any credits or XP - while useful for your team the successful CV still gets screwed over in the end results - blame WG for forcing peoples hand here) this shouldn't see him just fly off without cover.

 

Dropping the bombs early or on target should make your strike group fast enough to NEARLY outrun the fighters thereby either being able to reach the safety of nearby CA or CV AA before the enemy fighters catch up or to allow buying some time for the friendly fighters to show up and block any attacks. It should however NOT be a guarantee for safety and NOT make the strike group faster then fighters thereby eliminating the need to actually cover them.

 

I dunno this all doesn't seem unreasonable or unbalanced to me as all you gotta do is have some fighters close by/sneak the attack in/have an escape plan or risk it (literally only one of these is already sufficient to get a successful strike and escape).

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12 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

I'm Scottish and I live in Ireland mate.

 

That must put you in a very bad place. What do you prefer - Bowmore Legend or Bushmills Single Malt ^^

 

20 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

please bear in mind anything that isn't a kill of sorts doesn't get you any credits or XP - while useful for your team the successful CV still gets screwed over in the end results - blame WG for forcing peoples hand here

 

Thats actually true and part of a bigger problem, that hits any class somehow, if trying to be usefull for the team - tanking BBs, spotting DDs, DDs that smoke up team, CAs using radar/hydro so that the team can take advantage of that etc... Nothing it credited to the player who is actually willing to go the extra mile to help the team. In the end, its only damage/kills that really matter. Stupid, I know, and I do blame WG.

 

But on topic:

 

On 25.11.2017 at 3:30 AM, El2aZeR said:

Stuka ingame speed: 135kn (with bombs)

 

On 25.11.2017 at 3:30 AM, El2aZeR said:

So unless they've dropped their bombs (which gives them enough of a speed boost to outrun fighters, a feature that applies to all bombers) GZ bombers cannot outrun contemporary fighters. I certainly never had problems catching them when playing both Enterprise and Shokaku.

 

55 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

I have now on several occasions chased Stukas and they managed to drop out of visual range on open water without a cyclone. That is only possible if they actually outran the fighters. I am fully aware of these numbers hence why I asked my question in the first place.

 

Is it maybe possible, that WG has done some more testing and changed the speed? as @El2aZeR said, its technically impossible, what you describe. But for sure im not gonna put my head out of the window, relying on the information that the 135kn is accurate. Maybe they have changed the speed of the Stukas on some setup? Do you have a replay of an encounter, where the Stukas escaped? Seeing that would actually be a better ground to discuss then talking paper numbers.

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I don't record my games so unfortunately no but Darth Glorious just provided us with the necessary details.

Also as I don't own the GZ myself I unfortunately have to rely on outside data or the data of the ship visible in port with Aslan's full tech tree (I have no clue if that is the current version played by people and whether the stats shown are accurate).

 

The numbers provided however are nearing the actual real life speed of 210 kts while its opponents are far from it. That does seem a bit out of whack to me.

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44 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

but Darth Glorious just provided us with the necessary details.

 

I thought it was pretty clear, that after dropping the bombs they are outrunning fighters?

See:

On 25.11.2017 at 3:30 AM, El2aZeR said:

So unless they've dropped their bombs (which gives them enough of a speed boost to outrun fighters, a feature that applies to all bombers)

 

I thought, you are questioning the speed WITH bombs -->

On 25.11.2017 at 0:10 AM, JollyRoger1516 said:

Can somebody please explain to me how the Stukas are completely outrunning fighters? They are supposed to have a flight speed of 135knots but I can barely keep up with my fighters while they have bombs on

 

46 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

The numbers provided however are nearing the actual real life speed of 210 kts while its opponents are far from it. That does seem a bit out of whack to me.

 

Again, all about balance. They need to be near the other bombers of IJN / US.

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6 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

I thought it was pretty clear, that after dropping the bombs they are outrunning fighters?

 

I thought, you are questioning the speed WITH bombs -->

Again, all about balance. They need to be near the other bombers of IJN / US.

I'm semi questioning that bit. They feel a bit too fast for 135 but I would have no data to back me up on it hence why Im not really going there. The problem really is when you can barely approach them on the attack and then they completely outrun you after the drop on top of that.

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