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__Helmut_Kohl__

DW (anti-cruiser) Torpedoes

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It has already been mentioned in other threads:

 

PA Deepwater-Torpedoes are not a special anti-BB, but a special anti-cruiser weapon. 

 

When normal torpedoes approach BBs from a 90 degree angle, the only chance to evade them, is to have them spotted early, just like DW torpedoes. DW would only provide a real advantage, when hitting BBs from a bad angle. But good DD players will always try to hit them from the side. 

 

Cruisers on the other hand are agile enough to turn into normal torpedoes that have not been spotted early. 

And this is where PA Deepwater-Torpedoes will have the biggest impact. 

The short reaction time prevents cruisers from turning into them, making them a special anti-cruiser weapon. 

 

Objectively, PA DW torpedoes won't make such a big difference for BB players. 

Cruisers are getting shafted yet again. 

 

 

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YUPp... Cruisers were totally OP anyways and way too tough to kill so their survivability just HAD to be nerfed somehow. This was definitely the best way to do that. :Smile-_tongue::cap_haloween::Smile-angry:

 

You know, because of the much talked about and bothersome Cruiser overpopulation... Err, waittaminute...?:Smile_amazed:

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30 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

[...]

Objectively, PA DW torpedoes won't make such a big difference for BB players. 

Cruisers are getting shafted yet again. 

 

Three points here.

1) A lot of BBs are perfectly capable of dodging most torpedoes even if they start turning after they have been spotted. I like to call this the BB ballerina issue. So DW torpedoes will be quite a big difference for BBs. 

 

2) Who decided that cruisers should never be hit by torpedoes? Honestly, if you sail in a straight line long enough in a cruiser to actually be hit by torpedoes, then you made some very dubious choices. DD players don't target cruisers mostly because they know that a slight shift in direction will totally waste a torpedo salvo. 

 

3) Since these torpedoes won't be able to hit DDs, and the main reason why DDs die is other DDs or radar, I think it's totally fine for DW torpedoes to be better against one of the common DD counters seeing as they are totally ineffective against the other.

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2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Cruisers are still much harder to hit as they should be changing course constantly.

 

So u never get torped in a Cruiser? :cap_hmm:

Individually ofc Cruisers dont get hit by so many torps, still they might eat 1 or are CLOSE to get hit by one, but with enough reaction time they can evade. I think he is right about that one, that Cruiser WILL get hit more often, even tho u personaly might not.

 

2 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

2) Who decided that cruisers should never be hit by torpedoes? Honestly, if you sail in a straight line long enough in a cruiser to actually be hit by torpedoes, then you made some very dubious choices. DD players don't target cruisers mostly because they know that a slight shift in direction will totally waste a torpedo salvo. 

 

Never happened to u that u eat torps that most likely werent meant for u? Constantly evading (becuase need to) sometimes put u in such a bad position that u turn right into torps. Lookind behind u might be a BB which was targeted.

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2 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

BB dodging 90 degree torps? 

Doesn't happen in reality. 

Like I said, it only influences bad torp angles.

 

Not all of them. But if you only land 1 of them because the BB did a quick pirouette then it's not really worth it. For example at t10, a Gearing torpedo will do around 8k dmg on a Yamato belt...

 

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

So u never get torped in a Cruiser? :cap_hmm:

Individually ofc Cruisers dont get hit by so many torps, still they might eat 1 or are CLOSE to get hit by one, but with enough reaction time they can evade. I think he is right about that one, that Cruiser WILL get hit more often, even tho u personaly might not.

 

 

Never happened to u that u eat torps that most likely werent meant for u? Constantly evading (becuase need to) sometimes put u in such a bad position that u turn right into torps. Lookind behind u might be a BB which was targeted.

 

I've had that happen to me in DDs. It happens. 

 

I never said I don't think cruisers will get hit more often. I am saying that I don't see an issue with that because I don't think it should happen much more often simply due to how much cruisers bob and weave

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2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

So u never get torped in a Cruiser? :cap_hmm:

Individually ofc Cruisers dont get hit by so many torps, still they might eat 1 or are CLOSE to get hit by one, but with enough reaction time they can evade. I think he is right about that one, that Cruiser WILL get hit more often, even tho u personaly might not.

 

 

Never happened to u that u eat torps that most likely werent meant for u? Constantly evading (becuase need to) sometimes put u in such a bad position that u turn right into torps. Lookind behind u might be a BB which was targeted.

Since when does "much harder" equal "never".

You have an interesting way of reading my posts. :Smile_medal:

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3 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

I never said I don't think cruisers will get hit more often. I am saying that I don't see an issue with that because I don't think it should happen much more often simply due to how much cruisers bob and weave

 

I think everything which makes Cruiser life harder at this point is really bad for the game. The less Cruisers the worse this game will become imo.

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5 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

Not all of them. But if you only land 1 of them because the BB did a quick pirouette then it's not really worth it. For example at t10, a Gearing torpedo will do around 8k dmg on a Yamato belt...

 

That is why you need to stack them at range. So they don't leave wide gaps. 

 

DW will only help with bad/wide sidedrops. 

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4 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

As a CV-main, I recommend all cruiser players to take hydro to spot those DW-torpedos :Smile_trollface:

As a Minotaur-player, I will do so. :cap_cool:

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2 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

That is why you need to stack them at range. So they don't leave wide gaps. 

 

DW will only help with bad/wide sidedrops. 

 

I disagree. We can discuss how to play DDs but I doubt that this is the right place to do it.

 

DW will help with salvos from any angle because, by definition more will hit because the reaction time is lower.

 

6 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

I think everything which makes Cruiser life harder at this point is really bad for the game. The less Cruisers the worse this game will become imo.

 

I agree with that. But like I said, I am of the opinion that the DW torpedoes shouldn't affect cruisers too much unless a cruiser sails in a straight line for a long time.

Also, I guess that people will just have to take hydro or spec into vigilance if they are getting hit by these all the time.

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15 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

I agree with that. But like I said, I am of the opinion that the DW torpedoes shouldn't affect cruisers too much unless a cruiser sails in a straight line for a long time.

 

But as Dfens said, it's not the ones that are meant for you that are the problem, and the loss of reaction time hurts cruisers a lot more than it hurts BB.

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10 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

But as Dfens said, it's not the ones that are meant for you that are the problem, and the loss of reaction time hurts cruisers a lot more than it hurts BB.

 

I get his point, but that's not a very common occurrence. I mean I can tell you from an experienced DD perspective that you rarely hit torpedoes on things that you weren't aiming at. Let's not use a rare situation and treat is as though it happens all the time.

 

So if we agree that's a rare situation then all we have left is deliberate torpedo hits. Those will still be rare because cruisers change direction a lot.

And again, if the contention is that cruisers are able to dodge all torpedoes then there's something wrong. Cruisers will just be careful once they know a PADD is in the area. Similarly to how DDs have to be careful when a Z52 is in the area, for example. Or how a BB has to be careful when a DD is in the area. 

 

So again, not disputing that these torpedoes are better against cruisers than normal torpedoes. I am disputing the extent to which that will happen. 

I simply think that DDs won't be targeting cruisers a lot more.

And I am still of the opinion that BBs will be affected much more by DW torpedoes.

 

 

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Less anti-cruiser torpedoes as much as they're anti-PTFO torpedoes for cruisers and BBs alike.

 

Who's going to get hit by those torps? The cruisers (and rare BBs) that actually play the objective (you know, where those DW wielding DDs will be most of the time unless they're CV chasing knobends), or the maxrange camping BBabies?

 

The entire design philosophy behind those DW torps is utterly misplaced. I get that WG wants to counter BBs (though why they don't simply change the MM algorith or place a hardcap on BB numbers per game is beyond me). However the problem is the BBs that end up getting most effected by those DW torps are those that actually do their job, whilst the idiots humping the mapborders will remain safe until the game has already been decided (ergo zero change to the status quo!). And it just so happens that cruisers also get the shaft with their lower torpedo resistance and HP pool (and again, cruisers are more likely to get hit because they will be closer to the enemy, if anything just due to their lower maxrange).

 

This whole DW torpedo gimmick is just a mess.

 

32 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

I agree with that. But like I said, I am of the opinion that the DW torpedoes shouldn't affect cruisers too much unless a cruiser sails in a straight line for a long time.

Also, I guess that people will just have to take hydro or spec into vigilance if they are getting hit by these all the time.

 

I had a game yesterday with a Black on the enemy team. I knew where the Black was, I was expecting torpedoes, I was angled towards them. When the one quintuple spread had been spotted by a DD along the way, I was angled to sail snugly in between them.

Turns out the Black had actually send both sets, but only one got spotted early. So what felt half a ship's length right in front of my ship, the second spread finally got spotted, with one torp just in the position to clip my ship and with just the less than a handful seconds to react I couldn't dodge that one torp despite trying my best torpedo boogie woogie ... 18k damage. In a tier VIII cruiser without heal to recuperate some of the damage, just like that, a bit less than half my health gone despite every concievable effort done to minimize the expected threat.

 

I know Black torps are very, VERY stealthy (though I was still surprised at how close the second spread suddenly got spotted, oh boy), but at least they're slow as hell. I can only assume that DW torps have similar spotting distances ... but those torps will go roughly 20 knots faster. Tough luck trying to react to those if they get spotted ~300m meters from you and going 60+ knots.

 

The argument that only potato cruiser players straightlining will get hit/punished by those torps is patently false. And you don't have to get nuked by a spread for that to severely impact your game. Dodge every torp except one and that's still roughly half your HP gone.

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1 minute ago, Aotearas said:

[...]

The argument that only potato cruiser players straightlining will get hit/punished by those torps is patently false. And you don't have to get nuked by a spread for that to severely impact your game.

 

I mean, Black torpedoes run at a maximum of 48kn. Even if he launched them from 6-7 km they ran for like 30 seconds at the very least before they hit you. Also, if you knew he was there, why didn't you use hydro? If you didn't have hydro, why would you be able to totally counter that DD? Like what are his options in that case if you can dodge everything with ease?

 

You are also misrepresenting my point. In a 1v1 then yeah, DW torpedoes will hit cruisers more. Otherwise, in normal situations, at 8-10 km, you will have to sail in a straight line for quite a while to be hit by them.

 

But I can't really argue single situations nor am I saying that these torpedoes aren't good against cruisers - they are. I am not even saying they are a good idea. I think they are a silly gimmick that shouldn't have been in the game.

 

What I am saying (again) is that I don't think people will start focusing cruisers with them simply due to how much cruisers change direction naturally. And even then, a cruiser will probably take 1 (where with normal torpedoes they would have dodged everything) and a BB will take 3 (where with normal torpedoes he would have taken 1). I am just speculating though on the numbers. So BBs will still be more affected.

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4 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

I know Black torps are very, VERY stealthy (though I was still surprised at how close the second spread suddenly got spotted, oh boy),

 

There's a huge difference between sailing into torpedoes (100 knot closing speed agasint Black torps in a fast cruiser, or a 5 second reaction time) and sailing away (30 knot closing speed or a 20 second reaction time)

 

Sailing away from the source hard counters torpedoes in a 30 knot+ ship. Hydro and planes turn DW into normal torpedoes too.

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16 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

I get his point, but that's not a very common occurrence. I mean I can tell you from an experienced DD perspective that you rarely hit torpedoes on things that you weren't aiming at. Let's not use a rare situation and treat is as though it happens all the time.

 

But then the things you're not aiming for generally have the agility to avoid them when spotted, which is why you're not aiming for them in the first place, and this is what DWT takes away.

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2 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

But then the things you're not aiming for generally have the agility to avoid them when spotted, which is why you're not aiming for them in the first place, and this is what DWT takes away.

 

We cannot debate a situation that happens very rarely. 

I mean I will happily concede that in the rare situations when that happens then yeah, you will probably eat more torpedoes. 

 

But this is a super rare situation. I hit torpedoes on things that I wasn't aiming at at most once or twice a week.

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2 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

 

 If you didn't have hydro, why would you be able to totally counter that DD?

 

Funny you say that, considering the same method works on every other type of torpedoes, at basically any range. Hell I dodged a full Derzki set of torps from 2km distance in a Mikase with a broken engine ... I like to believe I'm decent at expecting and dodging torps. I also like to believe that is a skill and quite a valuable one to have in this game.

 

Except now WG is introducing a type of torpedo that effectively reduces the reaction time to near zero, so even perfectly prepared players will get hit if RNG spread put just one of those torps on a path you can't dodge.

 

And dodging torps and countering a DD are two entirely different things. Not getting nuked by a DD in a cruiser is one thing, actually actively countering a DD an entirely different matter and even with the best of intentions and tools not always possible given the circumstances. In the example at hand, I couldn't push into the Black even if I had wanted to, nor would the Black need to actually make it a fight since he had already capped and a cruiser pushing into a cap, spotted by the Black with two of his team's BBs just waiting to send AP my way ... not much talk of countering here.

 

 

My point is: DW torps punish those who actually play the objective, i.e. the good players. Yet the performance characteristics of thse DW torps are as such that even good players can't reliably avoid them.

In the meanwhile, the potato BBs sailing around on the boonies being of little use for the team are more or less entirely safe from their supposed harcounter until the game has been decided anyway. And despite being an alleged anti-BB weapon, the DW torps are just as, if not more dangerous to cruisers.

 

The entire concept stinks worse than condensed sewage and I can literally not think of a single reasonable argument in favour of the design that would actually improve the gameplay situation of the game.

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6 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

I mean I will happily concede that in the rare situations when that happens then yeah, you will probably eat more torpedoes. 

 

So you agree it will make Cruisers life harder. Thus its a nerf. So you agree with OP. Then why argue against it? If the impact is 2%, 50% or 0,2% is inessential.

 

33 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

I mean I can tell you from an experienced DD perspective that you rarely hit torpedoes on things that you weren't aiming at.

 

You want a video where I throw torps into a Cap twice with a delay of ~30 sec into a Cap, where i thought, there MIGHT be coming something? Nothing was ever spotted there before, nor was the cap contested at the time i launched Torps. First 4 torps = 2 hits. didnt knew what I hit, still it wasnt spotted. 30 sec later: 1 out of 4 hit, I was already 14 km away. another ~15sec later: Flooding kill Admiral Hipper. Maybe you dont... others have the third eye for it.

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17 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

So you agree it will make Cruisers life harder. Thus its a nerf. So you agree with OP. Then why argue against it? If the impact is 2%, 50% or 0,2% is inessential.

 

 

You want a video where I throw torps into a Cap twice with a delay of ~30 sec into a Cap, where i thought, there MIGHT be coming something? Nothing was ever spotted there before, nor was the cap contested at the time i launched Torps. First 4 torps = 2 hits. didnt knew what I hit, still it wasnt spotted. 30 sec later: 1 out of 4 hit, I was already 14 km away. another ~15sec later: Flooding kill Admiral Hipper. Maybe you dont... others have the third eye for it.

 

I said that I agree that they are better than normal torpedoes against cruisers but I do think it's important to what extent. I never contested it's a cruiser nerf - I do contest to what extent, and I think that's important. A 2% nerf is totally different than a 10% nerf.

 

I think the impact is important and I think it's incredibly silly to say otherwise. 

 

And like I keep saying, I think the impact on BBs will be greater than the impact on cruisers.That's all I've been saying. The only controversial thing that I said is that I don't think it's an issue that cruisers will be taking more torpedoes from PADDs because overall they tend to dodge all normal torpedoes and because I don't think cruisers will be the main target.

The OP was saying that cruisers will be affected more than BBs. I disagreed with that.

 

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29 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

We cannot debate a situation that happens very rarely

 

You're missing the point, it's a rare situation because of agility and reaction time, if you remove the latter it becomes less rare.

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1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

 

You're missing the point, it's a rare situation because of agility and reaction time, if you remove the latter it becomes less rare.

 

Wait what? I said that in the rare occurrence where torpedoes not aimed at cruisers would have been dodged before, they will hit more now. What I said is that I don't think torpedoes will be aimed more at cruisers because of how difficult it is to hit them in the first place.

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