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Cuarzo

Heavy cruisers, useless in this meta

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Before anythin else, I am a cruiser main. I don't like the slow pace of mammoths BBs, and DDs are a bit too fragile to my taste. CVs? don't fit in this game, i'd prefer subs instead. At the beginning i played cruisers in more than 40% of my games, but once you past tier 6, cruisers are a no-go, specially heavy ones (203 mm ones).

Their guns don't improve too much; you must fire almost continuously to make some damage, so stealth is rarely useful; they don't have smoke and their armor is like wet paper. On the other side, BBs improve inmensely; their guns get bigger, they outrange every cruiser, armour almost impervious to AP hits from smaller caliber hits and you must rely on HE and fires to get some dmg. And even fires are almost useless against latest Battleships (British) with their OP healing.

So time and again, when you play cruisers, you get games like this:

Atago destroyed after 6 hits

A cruiser deleted in two salvos. It's the same if you are firing from max range, changing speed and course, because each hit is an almost a sure citadel. Can't even count the number of times i've been erased by a BB sitting more than 15km away, or the times i received a lone hit... and it's a citadel.

To make things even worse, once you get past tier 4, you get matched almost 75% of games against superior tiers.

My latest high tier games are a BB vs DD contest, with perhaps a couple cruisers or a CV to spot and harass, while battleships exchange shots at max range, rarely moving and in most cases just sitting there camping bow on.

Pls WG, i know you're here to make money, and little things like your customers, or making all ships playable and enjoyable  don't mind to you, but i believe you should think a bit in the long term.

 

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Yeah... Myoko is pretty useless... or Atago/Takao... Des Moines... and almost all the rest :Smile_sceptic: (the ones I said are the CA's I currently play). With little exceptions, the heavy cruisers now in game are pretty far from unplayable or useless (of course, with this I don't mean that they are in perfect shape, especially comparing them with some IFHE light cruisers...)

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You own tier 8 CAs as the highest tier heavy cruiser so how do you defend extrapolating your limited experience to tier 9 and 10?

 

Come back when you have several tier 9 and 10 heavy cruisers.

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21 minutes ago, G01ngToxicCommand0 said:

You own tier 8 CAs as the highest tier heavy cruiser so how do you defend extrapolating your limited experience to tier 9 and 10?

 

Come back when you have several tier 9 and 10 heavy cruisers.

 

I would second this. The performance and survivability jump from tier VIII to IX is considerable (the latter due to the heal, the former depending on the individual ships of course).

 

Comparing say a Hipper against a Roon and then again a Hindenburg is almost like comparing apples to oranges, the differences are so extreme (mostly due to the Hipper being largely mediocre, but if there is a thing such as excellent mediocrity, the Hindenburg exemplifies that and is quickly becoming my most liked tier X cruiser).

You could also compare the New Orleans to the Baltimore and then the Des Moines. The performance delta between those ships is substantial.

 

Tier VIII cruisers are in a tough spot right now due to the BB overpopulation (lotsa hardcounters shooting at you) and the merciless tier VIII matchmaking, but I recommend to persevere. Tier IX cruisers are a noticably different breed from their lower tiered brethren.

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7 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

The performance and survivability jump from tier VIII to IX is considerable (the latter due to the heal, the former depending on the individual ships of course).

 

The problem is that BB/DD get their big performance jump from T7 to T8.

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I can't wait to get my Baltimore as I consider the NO trash. 

 

The BB heavy meta can make Cruisers very passive as firing your guns is a death sentence as half a team will go of their way to nuke you as they're potentially 1 shot kills for higher tier BB.

 

If BBs were limited to maybe 3 a side then Cruisers would become far more relevant. 

 

I'm doing ok in NO but I'm never playing her again after I get Balti XP. 

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7 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

I can't wait to get my Baltimore as I consider the NO trash. 

 

The BB heavy meta can make Cruisers very passive as firing your guns is a death sentence as half a team will go of their way to nuke you as they're potentially 1 shot kills for higher tier BB.

 

If BBs were limited to maybe 3 a side then Cruisers would become far more relevant. 

 

I'm doing ok in NO but I'm never playing her again after I get Balti XP. 

You may need to lower your expectation about baltimore.

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1 hour ago, Cuarzo said:

[snip]

 

I think you vastly undervalue the importance of stealth, especially on CAs you have which benefit a lot from it: the Atago/Myoko/Mogami and New Orleans.

 

You also undervalue the potency of 203mm AP when used properly, notably when combined with said stealth.
A New Orleans sneaking up to a broadside BB can easily pull off 8k damage salvoes.
Hell, I've seen 12k salvoes when aiming just right.

 


The argument can be made that CAs utility compared to IFHE CLs and the utility of smoke on CLs, but to swear off CAs in general as useless is a tad reductionist, especially at mid tier where 203mm AP can absolutely devastates the softer T7 and down (super)dreadnought-type BBs you still meet.

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1 hour ago, Cuarzo said:

CVs? don't fit in this game, i'd prefer subs instead.

This ... is like whaaaaaaaat ! ? your a cruiser player, and one of the things they are best at you want removed ?(shoting planes) and replace it with a DD funktion... and yes DDs where used to hunt Subs.

 

JOin us at tir 9 and 10 then we will talk about balance .... I dont know how offen i get 5-8 k damage from HE damage from a cruiser and my useless BB cant even hit it and the cruisers offen fire 2-3 times as fast 

 

mang

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1 minute ago, rigawe said:

You may need to lower your expectation about baltimore.

Urgh, thing is USN Cruisers are not that fun to play. I can make them work but it's hard going and I completely understand why someone would BB instead. It's a chore to grind the NO although the Pepsi was ok in the end.

 

Atago can't be muttered in the same breath as USN Cruisers around her tier. Atago has a heavy broadside that starts a lot of fires, plus you can stealth torp with 8+ torps, maybe even 12 without being detected. She doesn't rely nearly as much on constant shooting.

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19 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

Urgh, thing is USN Cruisers are not that fun to play. I can make them work but it's hard going and I completely understand why someone would BB instead. It's a chore to grind the NO although the Pepsi was ok in the end.

 

Atago can't be muttered in the same breath as USN Cruisers around her tier. Atago has a heavy broadside that starts a lot of fires, plus you can stealth torp with 8+ torps, maybe even 12 without being detected. She doesn't rely nearly as much on constant shooting.

 

Just for the Des Memes the grind and possible suffering is totally worth it. That ship is just madness 

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55 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

I can't wait to get my Baltimore as I consider the NO trash.

 

A minor mercy is that the New Orleans at least seems to have a fairly hefty XP multiplier. The NO and the Hipper, which I found to be nowhere near as bad as the NO, both seemed to earn XP out of the wazoo compared to other T8 ships. Just as well, the less time spent with the Nola the better!

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28 minutes ago, rvfharrier said:

 

A minor mercy is that the New Orleans at least seems to have a fairly hefty XP multiplier. The NO and the Hipper, which I found to be nowhere near as bad as the NO, both seemed to earn XP out of the wazoo compared to other T8 ships. Just as well, the less time spent with the Nola the better!

 

Yeah I've noticed this, I got 18k damage and 1 cap in a win yet I came 3rd.

 

A dafaq moment :Smile_amazed:

 

57 minutes ago, Comodoro_Allande said:

 

Just for the Des Memes the grind and possible suffering is totally worth it. That ship is just madness 

 

A bit like Moskva and Mino as both are insane compared to their lower down counter parts I guess. Although I barely play T10 of any ship type after grinding them.

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3 hours ago, G01ngToxicCommand0 said:

You own tier 8 CAs as the highest tier heavy cruiser so how do you defend extrapolating your limited experience to tier 9 and 10?

 

Come back when you have several tier 9 and 10 heavy cruisers.

 

That really doesn't address the problem. The weakness of tier 5-8 cruisers (with exceptions) combined with the uptiering makes the cruiser grind a miserable experience that turns players off trying to grind to the top of the line or grinding any other cruiser lines and, I would wager, is a part of why cruisers are so rare in matchmaking today. Cruiser survivability in those tiers have to be thoroughly looked at, the overmatching mechanic in particular needs an fixing at least for cruisers without smoke screens.

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To be honest the issue isn't with the cruisers, they play OK (with some notable exceptions which have abysmal armour or poor rates of fire or both) it's the excessive numbers of BB's at all tiers which choke off any idea of active cruiser play. This only gets worse the higher up the tiers you go due to their huge and accurate guns.

To the OP from your screenshot it's clear you showed way too much broadside and need to learn to use your concealment, we all make these mistakes, me more than most.

 

What's needed is a hard cap on BB numbers, but since they keep releasing premium BB's this is very unlikely, in T9/10 games it's rare to see more than a couple of cruisers a side per match.

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16 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

That really doesn't address the problem. The weakness of tier 5-8 cruisers (with exceptions) combined with the uptiering makes the cruiser grind a miserable experience

 

Also cruisers are the default line for new players, but they're probably the hardest to play outside of low tiers, which I think kills off a lot of newer players to the game.

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3 hours ago, Cuarzo said:

At the beginning i played cruisers in more than 40% of my games, but once you past tier 6, cruisers are a no-go, specially heavy ones (203 mm ones).

I think its quite the opposite actually. The lack of sustain (repair consumable) really limits the possibilites of mid-tier-cruisers.
Right after the CVs, the mid-tier cruisers are the ships that need changes the most. Stealth is another big issue with mid-tier-CAs. Stealth only becomes important at T8, and its one of the true advantages they have over BBs at higher tiers.

On the other hand, all T10 cruisers can 1v1 a T10 BB if they know how to play.

But 1v1 a Scharnhorst with a Pepsi? Or a Nagato with Myoko? Well you can if you are a pro and the BB is a potato, but with even skilled players, i would always bet on the BB. Until T8 atleast.

 

Quote

Their guns don't improve too much; you must fire almost continuously to make some damage,

It is not the main task of cruisers to deal damage. Their main roles are supportive. (Okay, maybe except the high-tier IJN CAs)
Dont just spam HE on BBs - try to AP some broadsided enemies. And ofc: Fight DDs, thats far more useful than farming damage.

 

Quote

stealth is rarely useful

As soon as you realize what i just said, stealth will become your biggest friend in cruisers.

Usually i dont play the "personal stats"-card, but i think i need to. And what i see there, is confirming my thought:

The cruisers ain't the problem, your playstyle is.


1st thing: You say you are cruiser main, but you have the lowest PR* on cruisers. You perform better on BBs and DDs.
2nd thing: There is only one cruiser that you have played over 100 battles with. Getting used to every single ship is important and i think you'd learn better, if you would focus on grinding one line to T10 first instead of playing multiple lines, all demanding different playstyles.
3rd: You are at T8 atm. Yes at that tier the cruisers become heavy cruisers, but they still lack of DPM and utility (=repair). Like others already said, the difference from T8 to T10 is really high for cruisers, much higher than for BBs. Believe me, you have better chances fighting a Montana 1v1 as North Carolina, than you have as Hipper against Hindenburg, or New Orleans vs Des Moines.

*Yes i know the PR-formula has its flaws, but its not the PR number itself what iam pointing to, its the difference between your DD/BB/CA ratings.

I hope you see that nothing i've said is meant hostile. But you really should try to accept that the heavy cruisers ain't the problem.

Even the stats of the average player show no real difference on the tiers - they are equally bad.

You can see the average performance here: https://wows-numbers.com/ships/

 

Quote

...it's the excessive numbers of BB's at all tiers ...

You should try queue at night. I mean after 1 or 2 am. The BB numbers drop and more and more cruisers play. I often even had games with just one BB each side.

But i have to crush your dreams: The matches still stay campy. In fact... it got even worse. Dodging one salvo from a BB that has 26-30 sec reload is far more easier than doding shells from cruisers with ~8 sec reload (or even less). Its not a huge difference in being oneshottet by a BB, or being sunk by 2-3 salvos from a heavy cruiser. Its a mental symptome: Being shot from BB, especially when it gets penetrations on you while you are angled, just feels more unfair than taking the damage over time from cruisers. Even tho the result at the end is the same.

Everyone who is really thinking, that a Hardcap on BBs will reduce the high-tier camping meta, is a dreamer...

If you overextend as cruiser you will be killed, no matter how many BBs are ingame.

Just try it yourself if you dont believe me. On some holiday or whatever, queue at late night and play cruiser only and enjoy all this 'mighty brawling'...

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10 minutes ago, Terendir said:

I think its quite the opposite actually. The lack of sustain (repair consumable) really limits the possibilites of mid-tier-cruisers.
Right after the CVs, the mid-tier cruisers are the ships that need changes the most. Stealth is another big issue with mid-tier-CAs. Stealth only becomes important at T8, and its one of the true advantages they have over BBs at higher tiers.

 

Check the values. Some BBs even have superior concealment over some Cruisers :cap_haloween:Or the margin is so small that it can be dismissed.

 

10 minutes ago, Terendir said:

On the other hand, all T10 cruisers can 1v1 a T10 BB if they know how to play.

 

Well, not sure about that. Basicly then can all overmatch your armor if they hit in the right place. If they know how to angle aswell u have to pray to RNG aka Fire. Conqueror cant be killed like that imo. He just burns u to death.

 

10 minutes ago, Terendir said:

But 1v1 a Scharnhorst with a Pepsi? Or a Nagato with Myoko? Well you can if you are a pro and the BB is a potato, but with even skilled players, i would always bet on the BB. Until T8 atleast.

 

Scharnhorst is imo a bad example as its more like a Battlecruiser type. He is supposed to hunt Cruisers. I did kill a ~30k HP Nagato once 1v1 with my Marblehead (i was at 14k or so). Did i win because he was a bad player? Ofc otherwise i should have lost it.

 

10 minutes ago, Terendir said:

It is not the main task of cruisers to deal damage. Their main roles are supportive. (Okay, maybe except the high-tier IJN CAs)
Dont just spam HE on BBs - try to AP some broadsided enemies. And ofc: Fight DDs, thats far more useful than farming damage.

 

Cruisers can dish out consistent high damages if they manage to survive long enough. BBs can strugle because of RNG. Single Salvo ofc a BB always wins. Cruiser cant really function in a supportive role when Hydro and Def AA are in the same slot for basicly all cruisers.

 

10 minutes ago, Terendir said:

Everyone who is really thinking, that a Hardcap on BBs will reduce the high-tier camping meta, is a dreamer...

If you overextend as cruiser you will be killed, no matter how many BBs are ingame.

 

The problem is that u cant have 5 BBs on your radar (meaning your personal vision) all the time. THey disappear between shots, they can shoot all over the map. Angle against some BBs might show broadside to the one BB on the other side and he can just evaporate u.

Its not necessary overextending which gets u killed vs 5 BBs. But when there would be like 7~ Cruisers per side and all play more aggressive u get more single engagements imo. U cant just be  like "oh i focus the Cruiser at 16km to punish his broadside when u have several cruisers closer to u. BBs can do that.

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Amazingly my damage and caps were enough to propel me to 2nd place on the winning team.

 

I still didn't enjoy the game as I had to push aggressively with the DDs where as our BBs followed leisurely at long range. If our DDs and myself died the BBs would simply have turned to go into the border...

shot-17.11.23_00.15.39-0971.jpg

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3 hours ago, Negativvv said:

NO although the Pepsi was ok in the end.

 

 

you're kidding, right?

that floating turd that always runs away? are we talking about the same boaty?

 

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Just now, Butterdoll said:

 

you're kidding, right?

that floating turd that always runs away? are we talking about the same boaty?

 

 

Pepsi guns do some very nice damage and the MM doesn't F**k you as hard.

 

It still isn't amazing but I got on ok with her in the end.

 

I still HATE the New Orleans, as you never get a break from the MM. Literally about 3 games I've been top tier and I've got about 80k XP in her now, that's A LOT of bottom tier games...

 

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Don't like very much those guns, either.

 

At least you can blame the MM, The "turd" doesn't even have  this excuse. And, yes I know that NO it's very similar to the "turd" and in the top of that have that MM thing.

But I'm like you, as you, I want Baltimore too. (I'm expecting to be other Cleveland). But I can not stand that boat.

So I'm waiting for the US line split, to pick up again that line.

Yes, I relate to that, but do you know what?

Being bottom tier in a ship you like it's very different to be bottom tier in a ship you don't like.

 

Case and point.

I'd like to return to furutaka, a ship that I not fully enjoy it, because reasons (Hurry to reach Mogami, etc).

I like that ship very much, one simply buff in turret transverse speed and it's a great brawler/ dd hunter in close quarters (contesting caps).

Even if that means to be bottom tier.

 

In fact, now I'm with a ship  that I'm in no hurry at all, just having fun with him. Best ship until the moment, suites me almost perfectly.

 

 

 

 

 

  

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32 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

I still HATE the New Orleans, as you never get a break from the MM. Literally about 3 games I've been top tier and I've got about 80k XP in her now, that's A LOT of bottom tier games...

 

Insider tip: Try to division with a T8 BB and u might get better MM atleast sometimes. Definetely worked for me. Usually 2 Cruisers its constantly T9/T10 MM, but 1 Cruiser/1BB (bismarck works best i think) seems like 50/50.

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5 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

I think you vastly undervalue the importance of stealth, especially on CAs you have which benefit a lot from it: the Atago/Myoko/Mogami and New Orleans.

 

You also undervalue the potency of 203mm AP when used properly, notably when combined with said stealth.
A New Orleans sneaking up to a broadside BB can easily pull off 8k damage salvoes.
Hell, I've seen 12k salvoes when aiming just right.

 


The argument can be made that CAs utility compared to IFHE CLs and the utility of smoke on CLs, but to swear off CAs in general as useless is a tad reductionist, especially at mid tier where 203mm AP can absolutely devastates the softer T7 and down (super)dreadnought-type BBs you still meet.

Stealth does only do so much and once your open fire thats it your free prey at T8 especally with the maps geting more and more open killinggrounds for BBs at that range. Not saying you cant cope but if your for example in a Hipper that isnt really mobile to begin with your drawing the short strawn in a lots of matches. Even the best angeling and wigeling wont save you from 16 inch RNG lotery in a cruiser while you usally have to keep the fire coming down for a extended period of time to get resuts thats BBs can get in 1 -2 salvoes if RNG smiles at them. 

 

Thats why its important to not despair and keep it coming T9 brings heals and acess to reload or range Mods wich either can bost damage or let you stay further back depending on your playstyle.

T10 Cruisers overall are all pretty decent just dont expect cruisers at any level do hard carrys like some other classes can pull off.

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2 hours ago, Terendir said:

 

1st thing: You say you are cruiser main, but you have the lowest PR* on cruisers. You perform better on BBs and DDs.
2nd thing: There is only one cruiser that you have played over 100 battles with. Getting used to every single ship is important and i think you'd learn better, if you would focus on grinding one line to T10 first instead of playing multiple lines, all demanding different playstyles.
3rd: You are at T8 atm. Yes at that tier the cruisers become heavy cruisers, but they still lack of DPM and utility (=repair). Like others already said, the difference from T8 to T10 is really high for cruisers, much higher than for BBs. Believe me, you have better chances fighting a Montana 1v1 as North Carolina, than you have as Hipper against Hindenburg, or New Orleans vs Des Moines.

I hope you see that nothing i've said is meant hostile. But you really should try to accept that the heavy cruisers ain't the problem.

 

 

1. Because cruisers (obviously i'm talking about CAs) are the hardest and less rewarding to play. As soon as you fire you are the target of every BB in range, unless said BB has much more urgent demands to attend. And even when evading you're punished by RNGesus and BB dispersion.

Have you seen the picture i posted?. Curiously i was heavily angled (Yes, @BeauNidl3, i know how to angle, but you can't angle always against 4-5 BBs who fire on you as soon as you're seen 'cause you're the XP piñata) both times to the firing ships, bow to the Gneisenau and stern to the Bayern, and manouvering radically, yet all the hits penetrated and 66% of them were citadels thx to overmatching rules.

2. I have also a lot of ships in the same case, yet i have no problems dealing with them. Are CAs the only ships who demand such exclusive attention? where is the balance -and fun- then?

3. yes, i'm at tier 8, even though i started grinding cruisers early in the game and i like them most, like i said. Why? because NO, Mogami and Yorck are a pain-in-the-[edited], so i stopped grinding them. Shchors is much better thx to its fantastic guns, but i don't like the playstyle.

And that leaves me to another problem: MM is horrendous to tier 7/8. About 2/3 of my games on those cruisers are against T10 ships, adding insult to injury (is that well said?). Where is the fun when you have to play ships against superior tiers once and again?

 

And don't worry, no offense taken.

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