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TZB77

MM hell

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So...I wanted to spend a fun sunday with our game....14 games of which 11 low tier....1 mid tier, 2 high tier.....what gives, really? Do I always need to play my tier IX or X ships to have a decent mm? 

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Well hey, at least you didn't have 2 dds on your team.....one a bot that went to J1 and the other one followed him, stayed there for about 10 min and then torped him

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3 minutes ago, Tungstonid said:

If your only concern is to be top tier and you can't have fun otherwise... yeah, you probably need a tier X.

That really is unfair and not what he is saying.

 

I'm quite sure he, as many other ppl, would be way more happy with the matchmaker if there was about an even chance to being downtiered as being uptiered. Even with the scale being in favor as to being uptiered, but not the 80% of that happening you see at certain tiers/with certain shiptypes.

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I think it would be fair to be toptier as often as bottom tier.

Might ofc be preventable if we would get +/-1 MM as the powercreep would be much lower thus it might not matter so much anymore.

 

Basicly the problem i see with the worst MM tier aka T8 is that u get T10 very often. So ppl want to buff them. But when u Buff them and they get T6 MM its just as horrible for the T6 as when T8 faces T10.

Also removes the problem of T5 meeting T7 which creates equal problems.

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50 minutes ago, domen3 said:

Well hey, at least you didn't have 2 dds on your team.....one a bot that went to J1 and the other one followed him, stayed there for about 10 min and then torped him

nowadays it's more like 5 dd's every game....the walls of skill are plenty :-)

 

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50 minutes ago, Tungstonid said:

If your only concern is to be top tier and you can't have fun otherwise... yeah, you probably need a tier X.

My concern is not being top tier....but really....Gneisenau in a match with Friedrichs and Missouri's...a low tier dd can still hide and get his torps off...especially with German BB's....which are meant to brawl....once you are detected, it's half the health gone.....not complaining about that, but the constant low tier is quite annoying

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Give up complaining. I gave up. Doesnt help. +-1 MM is not accepted by majority (apparently), so its like .. pointless to yawn :)

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Just now, TZB77 said:

My concern is not being top tier....but really....Gneisenau in a match with Friedrichs and Missouri's...a low tier dd can still hide and get his torps off...especially with German BB's....which are meant to brawl....once you are detected, it's half the health gone.....not complaining about that, but the constant low tier is quite annoying

And yes, I can give one salvo with citadels to a Missouri, but then I need to get back - certainly as the Missouri and such have awesome concealment.

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1 minute ago, nambr9 said:

Give up complaining. I gave up. Doesnt help. +-1 MM is not accepted by majority (apparently), so its like .. pointless to yawn :)

true....but 12 out of 15 games played being low tier is just sad, right?

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5 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

Give up complaining. I gave up. Doesnt help. +-1 MM is not accepted by majority (apparently), so its like .. pointless to yawn :)

 

I wonder if its really the majority. Or only a handfull of "git gud l2p ppl" that hijack any thread about MM as fast as possible. Im for one all in for +-1 MM and will never be silent about this.

And and @TZB77 depends always, what tier(s) you play. T8 is a s....show, you are <75% of the time lowtier, Id like to say <90% but I dont want to sound like exagurating. Eventho might very well be true. T5 isnt much better. T7 had good MM some time ago, Nowadays I find myself lowtier most of the time aswell, especially when picking a cruiser.

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13 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

I wonder if its really the majority. Or only a handfull of "git gud l2p ppl" that hijack any thread about MM as fast as possible. Im for one all in for +-1 MM and will never be silent about this.

And and @TZB77 depends always, what tier(s) you play. T8 is a s....show, you are <75% of the time lowtier, Id like to say <90% but I dont want to sound like exagurating. Eventho might very well be true. T5 isnt much better. T7 had good MM some time ago, Nowadays I find myself lowtier most of the time aswell, especially when picking a cruiser.

I get what you're saying....still, allthough having several tier 9 and 10 ships...I love my Gneisenau (my only 19 point captain - which I use for my Tier 8 Tirpitz ) and I love my Bismarck (18 point captain - which is why I play the Gneisenau and the Tirpitz that much)....but still, when there is a choice of 20k players, I don't really understand why there is no average in high tier-mid tier-low tier....the initial worry - why I started the thread was me being not-average in the mm game.....and no, no need to play t5  (allthough sometimes I do for fun)

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4 minutes ago, TZB77 said:

I don't really understand why there is no average in high tier-mid tier-low tier....the initial worry - why I started the thread was me being not-average in the mm game....

 

U have to look at the numbers from all classes and it makes pretty much sense.

First: up to T4 they have protected +/-1 MM. So T5 is the first tier which can see +2 aka T7. So they get thrown under the bus for the first time basicly.

T7 enjoys that. (or used to, lately it changed somehow)

Second: Especially Cruisers arent played much at T10. What does that tell us? We need more T9/T8 Cruisers in those matches. Numbers last 2 months T10 Cruisers 550k games played and T10 BBs 700k.

Also T8 German BBs are played to an absurd amount, almost 800k in 2 months! They need all the T6/T7 Cruisers to fill up their matches, aswell as they get thrown in T10 MM too.

 

Cruisers get mostly fucked because they arent represented enough. My feeling playing Bismarck i get much more T6/T7 MM than with a T8 Cruiser.

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1 minute ago, TZB77 said:

I don't really understand why there is no average in high tier-mid tier-low tier....the initial worry - why I started the thread was me being not-average in the mm game

 

I did ask myself the same question. I do have a reasonable answer. First, you have to look at how many players are playing at what Tier. Then, you have to look at the classes. You can use https://eu.warships.today/vehicles

(although right now doesnt load for me) and http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20171111/eu_2month/average_ship.html to find out about that. I did a few times very detailed. What I say, was basicly, that there is an imbalance between classes, the worst beeing T8 and T10. On T8, you have a load of BB-Players - too many to be paired with only T8 cruisers and DDs. Then, on T10, you have a lack of Cruisers all of a sudden. So what is the MM going to do? It will grab T8 cruisers and throws them into T10 games, to fill the gaps. This multiplies the problem at T8, cuz there is already a prob with too high BB-population. So he needs to get rid of the T8 BBs and at the same time fill the T8 matches - with T6 and T7 DDs and Cruisers. While many T8 BBs will be put into T10 matches. Now you ask, how come looking at one specific player, it feels like you are gettin effed? Its math + statistics. There is nothing higher then T10 and there are more games played on T10 then they are play on T7 f.e. Thats why a ship in T7 T8 will be more often low tier, cuz there are like four T8 ships in the queue but eight T10 ships at the same time. Uff I hope you can follow me, im starting to get lost myself in between numbers.

Ill just throw a few numbers after, to show why: Last 2 months, games played in:

Yamato : 201.518

Izumo: 97.726

 

Shimakaze: 296.105

Yugumo: 157.935

 

Then T8:

Bismarck + Tirpitz combined: 804.776 (!) --> this explains, why you will be paired against Yamato and Shimakaze rather then other T8s

but Cruisers: Hipper 139.553

 

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13 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

I did ask myself the same question. I do have a reasonable answer. First, you have to look at how many players are playing at what Tier. Then, you have to look at the classes. You can use https://eu.warships.today/vehicles

(although right now doesnt load for me) and http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20171111/eu_2month/average_ship.html to find out about that. I did a few times very detailed. What I say, was basicly, that there is an imbalance between classes, the worst beeing T8 and T10. On T8, you have a load of BB-Players - too many to be paired with only T8 cruisers and DDs. Then, on T10, you have a lack of Cruisers all of a sudden. So what is the MM going to do? It will grab T8 cruisers and throws them into T10 games, to fill the gaps. This multiplies the problem at T8, cuz there is already a prob with too high BB-population. So he needs to get rid of the T8 BBs and at the same time fill the T8 matches - with T6 and T7 DDs and Cruisers. While many T8 BBs will be put into T10 matches. Now you ask, how come looking at one specific player, it feels like you are gettin effed? Its math + statistics. There is nothing higher then T10 and there are more games played on T10 then they are play on T7 f.e. Thats why a ship in T7 T8 will be more often low tier, cuz there are like four T8 ships in the queue but eight T10 ships at the same time. Uff I hope you can follow me, im starting to get lost myself in between numbers.

Ill just throw a few numbers after, to show why: Last 2 months, games played in:

Yamato : 201.518

Izumo: 97.726

 

Shimakaze: 296.105

Yugumo: 157.935

 

Then T8:

Bismarck + Tirpitz combined: 804.776 (!) --> this explains, why you will be paired against Yamato and Shimakaze rather then other T8s

but Cruisers: Hipper 139.553

 

I respect your calculations, but that does not go to any logical resolve :-) .....your math may be correct, but not logical, if you get the point (in a logical view, not a mathematical one)....still...thanks for this....allthough hopefully it does not apply to this game :-)

 

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Just now, TZB77 said:

I respect your calculations, but that does not go to any logical resolve :-) .....your math may be correct, but not logical, if you get the point (in a logical view, not a mathematical one)....still...thanks for this....allthough hopefully it does not apply to this game :-)

 

still, will read into your answer....which I did not do when typing the previous one....

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2 minutes ago, TZB77 said:

still, will read into your answer....which I did not do when typing the previous one....

reviewed your position....sorry, this does not apply on what I have put out....was hopeful nonetheless....I don't think you grasp the issue of the matter ;-) Be well nonetheless, and thanks for thinking :-)

 

 

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3 hours ago, PzychoPanzer said:

That really is unfair and not what he is saying.

 

I'm quite sure he, as many other ppl, would be way more happy with the matchmaker if there was about an even chance to being downtiered as being uptiered. Even with the scale being in favor as to being uptiered, but not the 80% of that happening you see at certain tiers/with certain shiptypes.

 

Confirmation bias.

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3 hours ago, PzychoPanzer said:

I'm quite sure he, as many other ppl, would be way more happy with the matchmaker if there was about an even chance to being downtiered as being uptiered.

 

Mathematically, with the current ship / tier distribution, this is impossible. Its logical to be downtier more then uptier. Read my post #15 in this thread.

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If u think we are wrong on that one (not sure if u read my post earlier there, basicly said the same thing as ForlornSailor)

Then what do U think is the reason for that?

 

Not sure if u really understood what we were trying to say, maybe lets put more simple:

24 Players are in line waiting for a battle

40% Choose to play BB

27% play DD

33% play Cruiser

 

So we have matchup with

10 BB / 6 DD / 8 CA

 

Out of those 10 BB players 5 want to play T8.

Out of 8 CA players 3 play T8

And out of 6 DDs 2 play T8.

 

So 10 players out of 24 are playing T8, which leaves us with only 14 players for 2 Tiers T9/10. Especially T8 BBs are the majority, they screw up the MM.

While Cruisers and DDs are more or less spread even on the toptiers, BBs are not. The huge amount of Ships have to go somewhere. Still the MM needs to get those 8 Cruisers in the matchup, and we know waiting time is very low.

I think it goes like this:

Take all T10/9 ships in queue. Put as many T8 BBs in there as possible. Fill up with the rest.

 

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Fun fact.. after a bunch of battles, where I considered myself being treated unfairly by the MM and ending as lowtier all... the... time... !!! I took notes for the next 100 battles (or so..) and - ojweh! - it turned out that I was lowtier only in 33% of the battles... and hightier in another 33%... guess where the rest % were spent...

 

Over the course of 100.... 1000.... 10000 battles statistics for low/middle/hightier even out.

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31 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Fun fact.. after a bunch of battles, where I considered myself being treated unfairly by the MM and ending as lowtier all... the... time... !!! I took notes for the next 100 battles (or so..) and - ojweh! - it turned out that I was lowtier only in 33% of the battles... and hightier in another 33%... guess where the rest % were spent...

 

Over the course of 100.... 1000.... 10000 battles statistics for low/middle/hightier even out.

Maybe it levels out yes....but plz take in account you having over 8k battles over me being less than 2k....and I'm talking about the last few days right....all the other times the MM was fine (50% high tier, 50% low/mid tier)

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The MM spread carry over from tanks is frustrating, especially when grinding. Yes, it's nice that sometimes MM will throw you a bone and you'll end up as sole top tier, but it is so rare, and doesn't balance out being bottom tier in terms of the gaming experience. It certainly doesn't make me want to hit battle again anytime soon.

 

The range disparity is a problem - at least in tanks you have the same range as your opponents. To be sat in the loading screen in a stock KGV, as the only tier 7, looking at all the IXs I'm going to be facing, knowing that they've got 4-5km range advantage, and vastly more HP... 

 

The DD issue is another thing that is painfully felt with the MM being what it is. Effectively we have the same four classes as tanks (light, med, heavy, arty), but in tanks scouts are/were afforded MM so that they almost never ended up top tier (happened to me once in 33k games; AMX 13 57F, man that was a brutal game for the T5 guys). In boats, this doesn't exist, so at 6/7 you're often in a situation where you're up against a DD that's two tiers higher, with smoke, radar, massive torpedo salvo, HE pew-pew, and goes like the clappers. 

 

Cruisers seem to be less of an issue - but I've only played a few with my Marblehead and found being a T5 CA in T7 games too awful and given up on it. CVs - no opinion.

 

It's not causing me rage, but it is causing me to lose interest during gaming sessions faster than I would have done in tanks. At least in tanks, when bottom tier, you could stay hidden, or play carefully, and at least take part. With the range and HP disparity combined, when bottom tier in boats you just have to hope you can rack some damage up before you get noticed.

 

Will it change? Probably not - it works in tanks, and it is one of WG's favoured methods of driving gold/XP usage - probably more so in boats because there's less module grind and more boosters with the flags.

 

Sad thing is, it causes a self fulfilling prophecy - player numbers low because frustration at this (and other mechanic issues), which increases the need to spread MM out.

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7 minutes ago, German_Dunc said:

To be sat in the loading screen in a stock KGV, as the only tier 7, looking at all the IXs I'm going to be facing, knowing that they've got 4-5km range advantage, and vastly more HP... 

 

In which of the whooping 1 matches you played in KGV was that exactly?

 

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