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ollonborre

Z-46 struggle

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So far the German DD line have been a blast. The Gaede is pretty good, I adore the Maas and the Z-23 is also a barrel of fun. But I just can't seem to get the Z-46 moving past the "meh" impression.

 

On paper it should be good. Good guns with decent range and nice velocity, great torps, stealth is on par with most other same tier DD's, nice HP pool and Hydro. But there is some not so nice fineprint attached to the paper stats.

 

The guns are good, but the turret placement is awkward with 1 turret in front and 2 in the back meaning chasing is annoying. The HP pool can easily vanish since it is so fat and loves to arm BB AP. The Hydro, while better than on the Z-23 is not that much better, meaning that even if you face a lower tier german DD for example the distance it has to cover to also spot you is neglible at best.

 

Now it might look like I'm complaining, and in a sense I am. But I still think it is an alright ship. I just struggle to get consistent results out of it. One game you get blapped by radar/hydro/plane/BB AP and HE before you even have the time to consider popping smoke. And other games you run around torping and stealthcapping everything without competition.

 

The Z-23 and Maas I could pull consistent results in, and it was fun to contest caps and chase down other DD's and torping what was left. In the Z-46 it feels like I have to be so very careful I sometimes don't even dare to go into caps since I'm not sure I can get out alive.

 

So any suggestions? Or is just a big l2p issue when you hit tier 9 DD's?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ollonborre said:

Or is just a big l2p issue when you hit tier 9 DD's?

Yes

 

1 hour ago, ollonborre said:

So any suggestions?

Good stealth, good and fast reloading torps, what does this tell you? Yep, mainly a torpedo boat. While the Z-46 is a really good ship (i consider it better than the so called best DD in the game, Fletcher) you have to play it different than its predecessors. This tells you already the placement of the turrets. Z-46 is mainly a torp boat and a kiter. You can not charge blindly into enemy DDs and hope hydro will save you. Starting with the Z-46 you have to learn to be really patient with your trigger finger (when to open fire) and when/how to torp enemy ships. The maneuverability of the high tier german DDs is something to get used to, because they turn like bricks. They have a slower rudder shift than i.e. US DDs and a much bigger turning radius. Up to the Z-46 you should use your hydro mainly as defensive tool to control caps and protect your allies. The hydro range is simply too short to rush every enemy DD you see and hope you make it out alive with the smoke/hydro strat. It does not work well, if the enemy DD had backup. This changes later with the Z-52, which play in a whole different league. It has a better turret placement (2 bow, 1 stern) and a long range hydro of just shy 5.9km while Z-46 only has 4.7km.

Also, as T9 ship you meet the big dogs and are pretty much always in T10 battles. This means, your favourable MM is mostly over. While with Maass, Z-23 you have often lower tier enemies and you can profit greatly from ship upgrades that are not available for the lower tier ships, the T9+ ships all have same conditions.

 

TL;DR

Z-46 has to be played more passive, it's not a charge in DD but a taunt and kite DD. Get used to the difficult handling (slow rudder and huge turning radius) and learn to control your urge to pull the trigger immaturely. Use hydro as a defensive tool and get rid of the mindset that you have to use hydro to rush down enemy DDs.

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12 minutes ago, ThePurpleSmurf said:

Use hydro as a defensive tool and get rid of the mindset that you have to use hydro to rush down enemy DDs.

You hit the nail on the head perfectly I think. The Maas and Z-23 rewarded cap rushing, and since I'm not a very good DD player overall I think this is my biggest flaw: simply adapting. Will try a bit more defensive play and see if I find any improvement.

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Checked your stats. Could I please turn around your question? How the heck can I become as good a player as you are??

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9 hours ago, Ferry_25 said:

Checked your stats. Could I please turn around your question? How the heck can I become as good a player as you are??

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not since I have been playing crappy last week or so, somewhat hard to tell in text.

 

On 2017-11-18 at 5:54 PM, ThePurpleSmurf said:

-snip-

Followed your advice and played more passively, and things started to click more. A lot of the annoyances I had sort of went away when I started to use torps more and less guns, only using the guns while in smoke, to finsih off low HP targets or when the target is 100% distracted. Will soldier on and see if things improve more.

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5 hours ago, ollonborre said:

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not since I have been playing crappy last week or so, somewhat hard to tell in text.

No absolutely no sarcasm from my part. When I look at your stats I'm bewildered and wishing I could yield the same results as you are. Just meant for a hail to a clearly much better player than I am. 1 crap week? I'd tray that for anytime. Cause I seem to have a "crap career" when you bother to check my stats....

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22 hours ago, Ferry_25 said:

Checked your stats. Could I please turn around your question? How the heck can I become as good a player as you are??

 

Since the answer to the initial question was answered, I hope nobody will mind me going a bit off topic here.

 

The way good players get good in this (or any game) is best exemplified by this thread here. The OP is a good player but when he felt like he was under-performing on a ship, he asked for help.

Basically good players tend to be self-critical and they don't make excuses for when they suck. The game simply isn't fun for good players unless they are performing well.

 

Personally I managed to stop sucking only when I took a good hard look at myself. Watched replays of my games and compared them to replays of amazing games played by others etc. I used to be terrible. Like 45% win rate terrible. 

Being good at this game is not that difficult and the biggest hurdle you have to overcome is yourself.

It is also incredibly fun and engrossing when you do start to improve. It's like a game in itself. :Smile_Default:

 

If I were to sum up WoWs community in a nutshell it would be "While some people are busy getting good at the game, others are busy at getting good at making excuses for why they are not good at the game" 

 

If you struggle to figure out where you are making mistakes, I am more than happy to watch some of your replays or play a couple of matches with you and help out.

 

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It is a bit of a mystery why you do badly with the ship. I will admit I skipped her because I wanted to z52 so badly. But I went back to her, and quite enjoy playing her. My only problem is that I don't wanna play her without a 13pt captain minimum. And I don't have a German 13pt captain available at the moment. But I feel that the Z46 is better than the Z52. Just like I feel like the Fletcher is better than the Gearing.

 

I don't wanna presume to know to tell you how to play the Z46, you have a lot more battles under your belt than I have. And Ferry said your stats are good.

 

@Ferry_25 Just like Teob, if you want someone to have a look at your matches, post a replay. I'll also check it and see if I can give some constructive feedback. Just know, my expertise is with USN and KM DDs.

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On 11/20/2017 at 0:24 PM, Teob_VG said:

If I were to sum up WoWs community in a nutshell it would be "While some people are busy getting good at the game, others are busy at getting good at making excuses for why they are not good at the game" 

You were so nice limiting it to the WoWs community. It's a human fact :)

 

@Ferry_25  Teob is one of the most helpful guys in the community. He helped me improving my Grozovoi gameplay (I am still learning). 

 

@ollonborre I unlocked the Z-46 yesterday and I enjoy her quite a lot. Other than suggested I set her emphasizing guns which led to a great DD hunter hence my stats are low damage but high kill ratio per game.

Still experimenting tho. Would like to try as a torp boat too.

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5 minutes ago, xenopathia said:

 

@Ferry_25  Teob is one of the most helpful guys in the community. He helped me improving my Grozovoi gameplay (I am still learning). 

 

@ollonborre I unlocked the Z-46 yesterday and I enjoy her quite a lot. Other than suggested I set her emphasizing guns which led to a great DD hunter hence my stats are low damage but high kill ratio per game.

Still experimenting tho. Would like to try as a torp boat too.

 

1) you are far too kind. We should team up again sometime. 

 

2) The way I would spec both the z46 and the z52 is PT, LS, AR, SE, BFT, DE, CE. That way you have enough firepower to handle other DDs, which also works well with DE. And since a lot of your damage comes from dot stacking, DE is very good as well.

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13 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

1) you are far too kind. We should team up again sometime. 

Definitely, not too far from Z-52.

22 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

2) The way I would spec both the z46 and the z52 is PT, LS, AR, SE, BFT, DE, CE. That way you have enough firepower to handle other DDs, which also works well with DE. And since a lot of your damage comes from dot stacking, DE is very good as well.

A unique set-up with DE.  I am using RL so I have 1-PM  2-LS,AR  3-SE,BFT and 4-CE,RL   with Gun Reload module.

So far(in 17 games) I am very happy with RL. A game from yesterday it helped me hunt down 2 DDs (a z-46 and a Lo Yang) in the last minutes which won us the game even tho we were 4 ships behind. 

I think this set-up suits me better, but still I may swap SE with DE to increase damage potential towards the end game when all the opponent DDs are cleared. What do you think?

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35 minutes ago, xenopathia said:

A unique set-up with DE.  I am using RL so I have 1-PM  2-LS,AR  3-SE,BFT and 4-CE,RL   with Gun Reload module.

So far(in 17 games) I am very happy with RL. A game from yesterday it helped me hunt down 2 DDs (a z-46 and a Lo Yang) in the last minutes which won us the game even tho we were 4 ships behind. 

I think this set-up suits me better, but still I may swap SE with DE to increase damage potential towards the end game when all the opponent DDs are cleared. What do you think?

 

I would not give up SE on any DD, no matter what.

RL is good but most of the time, I can tell where enemy DDs will be anyway. They either go for objectives or for BBs. I find that I don't need it as much on the z52. I do run it on My Gearing and my Shima though because I might need to avoid people when playing those.

 

I find that my setup just has really good synergy overall. I forgot to mention I also have PM as well. AR works really well with SE, BFT and DE are a match made in heaven, further augmented by the fast torpedo reload (I use the torpedo module) and PM helps with not having my torpedoes knocked out all the time and PT is amazing.

By the way, don't discount DE even for fighting other DDs. I've killed a lot of people by setting 2 fires on them. It's quite a lot of damage.

I just don't have space for PT (even though I do like it).

Since changing to this spec my average damage and win rate have been very good. 

 

Btw, as a bit of a tip, which you may or may not know, by watching your PT when knifefighting other DDs, you can tell exactly when they fire their torpedoes because PT only triggers when targeted with the main battery guns. It's a neat little way to avoid torpedoes.

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4 hours ago, xenopathia said:

[...]

@Ferry_25  Teob is one of the most helpful guys in the community. [...]

[...]

I would agree with this statement

4 hours ago, Teob_VG said:

[...]

2) The way I would spec both the z46 and the z52 is PT, LS, AR, SE, BFT, DE, CE. That way you have enough firepower to handle other DDs, which also works well with DE. And since a lot of your damage comes from dot stacking, DE is very good as well.

This is the build I am going for with my Z46 at the moment. I am limited by the fact that I jammed a new commander on her since the old one went to greener pastures (Z52).

Currently I am at PT, LS, SE and CE. These are core DD skills in my opinion. The next one I'm going for would be either BFT or DE, but with a 10pt captain that is quite a while away.

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forum messed up and created a double post

 

Edited by tmGrunty
double post

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DE is hot garbage on German DDs because you don't want to shoot HE in the first place. 

Whenever possible you want to shoot AP because it is so much better.

 

So take BFT (I even life AFT on Z-46) and then SI to get more smoke and Hydro. Some even like TAE but I think that is overkill and not worth the points for what you actually get out of it.

But please don't take DE.

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1 hour ago, tmGrunty said:

DE is hot garbage on German DDs because you don't want to shoot HE in the first place. 

Whenever possible you want to shoot AP because it is so much better.

 

So take BFT (I even life AFT on Z-46) and then SI to get more smoke and Hydro. Some even like TAE but I think that is overkill and not worth the points for what you actually get out of it.

But please don't take DE.

 

I don't think DE is "hot garbage" at all. You actually want to be shooting HE quite a bit. You do damage by DOT stacking. So you use your torpedoes that do low damage to score a hit with flooding then you want to set fire in multiple places. If anything is angled then your AP does nothing. Even on DDs AP is useless against things that too thin so HE ends up being the better choice.

 

Yes, you shoot AP when possible. But that's not always possible.

I for one find SI to be overkill. I almost never run out of smoke/hydro.

 

I agree that TAE is not needed though.

 

Edit: that said, I believe the Z52 to be very versatile and I it has multiple setups. You can actually pick up TAE if you want more torps, SI is a valid choice as well. Some people even run a very gun focused spec. There are players that swear by Radio Location on it. I would be hard pressed to decide on a single optimal spec because it does depend a lot on how you want to play it.

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7 hours ago, Teob_VG said:

RL is good but most of the time, I can tell where enemy DDs will be anyway.

I need 2-3k more battles to be able to assume what RL does for me  :)

 

3 hours ago, Teob_VG said:

Edit: that said, I believe the Z52 to be very versatile and I it has multiple setups. You can actually pick up TAE if you want more torps, SI is a valid choice as well. Some people even run a very gun focused spec. There are players that swear by Radio Location on it. I would be hard pressed to decide on a single optimal spec because it does depend a lot on how you want to play it.

This.

I think the German DD line is one of the lines that may differ in many ways and non would be the "best" or "garbage" @tmGrunty

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Well my statement especially regarding the Z-46 comes from having way over 100 games in it on each NA and EU server.
And I'm actually 4th in WTR (3rd in damage on EU) regarding to warships.today on both of those servers.

So I like to think I know what I'm talking about especially since those stats are mostly solo play.

DE in general is one of (if not THE) most overrated skills in the game for (non Russian) destroyers.

This is especially true for German DDs which have abysmal HE performance. You will get your fires eventually as the firechance isn't that bad to begin with.

But there are just so many other good T3 skills to take. I'd literally take every other skills except BoS and the CV skill before even considering DE there.

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1 hour ago, tmGrunty said:

Well my statement especially regarding the Z-46 comes from having way over 100 games in it on each NA and EU server.
And I'm actually 4th in WTR (3rd in damage on EU) regarding to warships.today on both of those servers.

So I like to think I know what I'm talking about especially since those stats are mostly solo play.

DE in general is one of (if not THE) most overrated skills in the game for (non Russian) destroyers.

This is especially true for German DDs which have abysmal HE performance. You will get your fires eventually as the firechance isn't that bad to begin with.

But there are just so many other good T3 skills to take. I'd literally take every other skills except BoS and the CV skill before even considering DE there.

 

Right. Or, consider this, maybe there are more ways to go about it. I mean pulling stats is cute and all but it doesn't quite support your point unless everyone in the leaderboard has achieved those results with the exact same spec. 

 

So basically you are saying that your way is the only way/the best way to spec it. I am saying that there are several ways to spec it.

 

Now as far as actual arguments, German AP is one of the worst performing shells as far as penetration at t10. You can check these values here

For ease of use, I will include the relevant chart here:

lDmamYR.png

 

The orange line is Gearing AP pen, the blue line is Z52 AP pen. The Z46 has the same gun performance as the Z52. So relying on it alone might work but I prefer not to do that.

 

And DE is actually a pretty great skill if you want to start fires and it is especially good with BFT.

This reddit thread is a pretty good read. Basically split by number of fires per minute, DE + BFT is great (at the very least a 30% increase). This obviously doesn't take into account the fact that sometimes your window of opportunity is not really that large so starting two fires instead of one can mean the difference between killing something or not.

 

The point is there really are more ways to perform well in these boats.

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Z46 is amazing after Z23.

 

The T8 ship is a big fat PoS with slow turrets, lel DPM and is generally unsatisfying to use.

 

Z46 is nimble and had real DD guns with fast turrets to match. Plus she has the Chicken player's favourite with 2 rear turrets so you get decent DPM when running :Smile_hiding:

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1 hour ago, Negativvv said:

Z46 is amazing after Z23.

 

The T8 ship is a big fat PoS with slow turrets, lel DPM and is generally unsatisfying to use.

 

Z46 is nimble and had real DD guns with fast turrets to match. Plus she has the Chicken player's favourite with 2 rear turrets so you get decent DPM when running :Smile_hiding:

The gun placement is also great for hiding 80% of your ship behind an island while shooting. And just accelerate the last small amount behind the island when targeted. 

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Grinded to Z-46 myself in the mean time. I think it's a very good ship to play. I'm getting very good results. Only thing I'm seeming incapable is winning... Below are the results of today so far. All losses of course. in 1 and 2 I was first of the team. The third I was 8th. Stumbled upon an ever lasting radar with at least 13 km range. No, I didn't understand it either. Guess I must have missed something. Results aren't any stuff of legend but quite decent I'd say.

 

 

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2.jpg

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Lol. I literately lost my way to Z 52 today. Winrate wise this is one of the worst ships I'm having. Still I can't stop muself loving this ship to death. In the overly vast majority of my matches I ended in the top 5. I took your advice to heart: not play too aggresively and take the ruddershift module. I wasn't allowed to win much but oh SJ! How much fun did I have in this boat. Scored 3 dev strikes in 1 match today...  A rare win....

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Sorry for reviving my old thread, but I wanted to say thank you for the tips. I have been playing the Z-46 a bit more recently and it has finally clicked a lot more for me. I have understood how to play it effectively and I'm finally feeling useful. 

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Biggest issue for me with the German DD line is their HE completely sucks.

 

1500 damage is awful and other DDs can outgun you.

 

The AP however performs arguably even better than RU AP vs broadside targets.

 

I've grinded up to z52 and I'm not sure I like the line all that much other than the fast torp reloads.

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