Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
PricelessPlayingPancake

Prinz Eugen aka Hipper and WG attitude towards her

118 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Beta Tester, In AlfaTesters
120 posts
4,738 battles


Good evening forumites ,

How are everyone today :cap_tea: ? My english is kinda crappy(never learned it on purpose), so pardon for all my mistakes while making constructive sentences. 

Ok, lets start this rant by bringing some analysis of the ship
.shot-17_11.17_23_04.53-0411.thumb.jpg.d5380bfdace421185313a9bab462cdf5.jpg 

We all know thats the Hipper. Main characteristics are the same . Same ammount of 203 guns , same ammo , same speed , same torpedoes . Theyre sisterships , so im not really irritated about these things being almost identical.
The real problem beggins when trying to make this ship perform well. Im clearly not some kind of super unicum in this game and wont pretend being one here. Still 64% for this ship i consider being pretty good . 
Then whyd you complain about underperforming then ? Tier 8 mm..... No , i wont say anything about that. 8 x 203 guns in 4x2 setup with 13!!!!! sec reload,  low speed , bad camo, even with all the possible improvements for it and huge HE inviting superstructure :
 shot-17_11.17_23_14.25-0178.thumb.jpg.0a6b704c9b8bee7e97d97fd5ee6a4ff1.jpg

The 3 good things about this ship are : Good AP/HE velocity, abillity to tank 381 mm and less caliber ap shells , good AA  values (almost as good as theyre on Kutuzov) . 

Sadly, these sides can be easily negated by simple situations in every single game , no matter if youre top tier or not. 
What cruisers fire mainly at you when youre going bow in at them ? 152 IFHE or 203s - shells that dont care about your bow  and superstructure armor at all . Theyre setting you on fire while youre trying to do the same to them. The problem is , that outstanding AP can be used only against broadsiding ships and DPM is so low that you will lose every single duel against ANY same tier cruiser swinging HE at you. Atago got less dpm , but way better HE (and burst) performance , better torpedoes , heal , better camo, speed ..... The only way he can lose to you, its when he goes full ,,Paddle me '' mode . And trust me , that wont happen most of the encounters . Other cruisers like Charles Martel , Kutuzov , Chapaev , New Orleans ,Mogami - they got way higher dpm than you and will easily put you down for good with HE . You cant run away, you cant outdpm any of them , you cant heal back he damage , you cant outspot them. All of that and more makes this ship really frustrating to play time to time . I wont comment glorious charging at low calliber BBs and killing them with torps  , because allmost all cruisers can do that without having to risk getting HE detonated trough the bow. Yep, in my first 2 games with this ship i got detonated by RN bbs blapping me with he , while going bow in at them with intention to torp. Had to insta switch main armament module to magazine , because that wasnt a good start at all. 

At first i tought that its my lack of expirrience or poor use of range . Then i looked at recent QNA with WG , where they claimed that PE is fine , because she got buffs some time agot , together with her sistership. By them statistics showed that these ships are fine , so i got curious to take my own peek at global performance . Then i understood , that its not really my poor plays that made games in this ship sooo frustrating time to time : 

1. This ship got one of worst winrates of all ships in the game and 2nd worst wr of all the premiums . 
1.thumb.png.3c3b24623e4411c09cd2e55f8657f044.png

2. THE WORST Avg. Frags of ALL tier 8 ships (Hipper isnt that far to).


2.thumb.png.91328837ee3761eff939f4470517bf00.png
 

3. THE worst average damage of all tier 8 cruisers ( As you see Hipper isnt that far behind ) 
3.thumb.png.92fcb1e3850845945353361918d5582e.png
4. 2nd worst average XP of all tier 8 ships ( You see the pattern with Hipper) 
4.thumb.png.3711189d1989d405d6b39bd134bfefcd.png
 

5. THE worst K/D ratio of all tier 8 ships 
5.thumb.png.1341690fc0353dac8405a6f12993c28e.png



Soooooooo...... The ship that is on the bottom of all possible measurable cattegories is fine ?:cap_hmm: For what kind of standarts , for what other reasons WG isnt improving this ship and her sister to be competetive?    Elo Serb? :cap_old:

Solutions : 

1.
Decrease the reload to 10 secs as on Charles Martel. Then these two ships would have almost the same dpm as the CM with better AP ammo and armor, while losing on camo, speed , He performance and 1 less gun. 
2.
Give the ship abillity to use tier 9 consumable slot for reload /AA/ Torps / Range improvement 

3. 

Give her HEAL and improve camo values to 10-10.5 km with all the modules(captain perk) and cutting the reload to 11.5 secconds 

Thats it for my evening rant , i hope you guys had a good day and see ya in the comments :cap_look:  Good night Captains! 
 

  • Cool 16

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[UNICS]
Beta Tester
4,481 posts
7,976 battles

She's not very tanky or maneuverable, that's pretty much down to basic historical values, so not much to do about that.

So what can we improve? DPM obviously, either by just increasing rate of fire or improving soft shell stats like Krupp value or auto-bounce angles.

Either would work for me.

DK0umwCUMAAhcK2.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HOME]
Beta Tester
1,818 posts
6,902 battles

Only real way to buff Prinz and Hipper is to buff RoF to 10-12 seconds. 

Historically Hipper has the fastest firing 8" guns at tier 8, yet ingame its the slowest after Mogami/Atago (which has 2 more guns as well as many other pros).

 

Hipper/Prinz's potential RoF right now is way to low so playing risky rewards with too little reward even if you get the chance to shoot at enemy broadsides.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
[NWP]
Players
8,124 posts
11,662 battles

Atleast Hipper/Eugen got an armour buff so can angle vs 15" BB shells plus they get free IFHE.

 

I'm grinding New Orleans and that thing IS trash. It's guns are great with AP vs Cruisers but what isn't these days? Angled BBs laugh at the AP and resist the HE pretty well. Don't even talk about it's pathetic armour...

 

Oh and LOL did OP buy the extra camo? :Smile_amazed:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester, In AlfaTesters
120 posts
4,738 battles
4 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

Atleast Hipper/Eugen got an armour buff so can angle vs 15" BB shells plus they get free IFHE.

 

I'm grinding New Orleans and that thing IS trash. It's guns are great with AP vs Cruisers but what isn't these days? Angled BBs laugh at the AP and resist the HE pretty well. Don't even talk about it's pathetic armour...

 

Oh and LOL did OP buy the extra camo? :Smile_amazed:

:cap_money: yes! I have some news for you - angled bb's laughs at Eugen AP to because it doenst have US AP normalisation values , neither good fire chance , neither rof to set those fires.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NED]
Players
4,194 posts
11,706 battles

tl:dr (all). I didn't like Miss ter (Hipper) at all. After to Lepramore Hipper was the biggest suffer in this game so far. Miss, miss, shatter, bounce, pen without damage a.s.o It took me 2 to 3 months before I bought Roon (needed a lot of alcohol before making that decision). I quite liked the German cruiser grind until Dorck so I was "afraid"of trying Roon. However.. After some practice I really started to like Roon. Kiting away and spamming though my a$$. Heck I got my first "witherer" with Roon (of all ships). Moving on to H'burg. I love that ship to death. IMO Hindeburg is the best allround cruiser in the game. Though my stats will clearly say 'meh, you're doing mediocre at best, Ferry" I still have the feeling I'm playing epic in this cruiser. It can take a hard punch, is doing very fine in kiting spamming but also can play a vital role in a push situation. Specced it as much AA as reasonably as possible, so the CV's aren't scaring me at all.

 

What I am saying: Prinz Eugen is nothing for you if you don't like Hipper. But if you do make Hipper to function, PE is a very good choice to buy as a premium German cruiser.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TCG]
Community Contributor, Beta Tester
117 posts
10,576 battles

I feel you. I'm a hipper guy who also has prinz eugen but it's like hipper is premium as her conc is lower and has more range. 

1 hour ago, PricelessPlayingPancake said:


Solutions : 

1.
Decrease the reload to 10 secs as on Charles Martel. Then these two ships would have almost the same dpm as the CM with better AP ammo and armor, while losing on camo, speed , He performance and 1 less gun. 
2.
Give the ship abillity to use tier 9 consumable slot for reload /AA/ Torps / Range improvement 

3. 

Give her HEAL and improve camo values to 10-10.5 km with all the modules(captain perk) and cutting the reload to 11.5 secconds 

 

I really liked number 2...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PORT]
Modder
1,493 posts
10,994 battles

From a viewpoint of a coop-player, I prefer the Prinz Eugen from all the T8-cruiser. No other can brawl and torp, while charging some bots from behind an island like that. Even more fun with the secondaries-commander lend from the Tirpitz. :cap_haloween:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,648 posts
12,122 battles

Hipper is something between okay and good at everything but excels at nothing. That's basically her key strength and weakness at the same time. I do find her quite tanky though, or at least better than her reputation leads to assume.

She used to have the fastest reloading 203mm guns at her tier but after several buffs New Orleans surpassed that value. I would very much like to see that characteristic again. It does not have to be a huge buff but just slightly faster than NO.

 

edit: Heal was debated quite a lot. I love both ships, Hipper and Eugen, and I would love having 1 heal (max. 3 with premium and SI) but I wonder if that might be a bit unfair towards her peers. Concealment is okay imho. Just the main gun reload needs some adjustment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,743 posts
15,601 battles

give it radar and a reload buff and be done withn it.

(reaload buff also for the hipper and mybe soemthign else to compensate for not getting radar depending on which slot the radar goes)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HAERT]
Players
2,103 posts

Unlikely that Hipper would get Radar (unfortunately), but a change to the reload to 10s would be very welcome and in line with more of the T8 heavies with 203's.

It's been suggested many times that all T8 cruisers would benefit hugely from a heal as they get in T10 BB heavy games all the time, but while I'd love it I suspect that's not likely to happen.

I quite like playing Hipper, but I won't be buying Eugen as it's so similar that there's nothing interesting to make me pay for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BYOB]
Players
3,074 posts
11,057 battles

There's a topic in the cruiser section about the Hipper/Eugen. I have posted there some calculations about the RoF of the ship compared to others:

 

Quote

The list below assumes a fully upgraded ship which fires all guns at once with a normal reload speed:

Admiral Hipper (203mm) - 36,96 shells/minute

New Orleans (203mm) - 45 s/m

Charles Martell (203mm) - 54 s/m

Atago (203mm) - 37,5 s/m
Mogami (203mm) - 40 s/m

 

Mogami (155mm) - 90 s/m
Edinburgh (152mm) - 96 s/m
Chapayev (152mm) -  90 s/m
Kutuzov (152mm) - 90 s/m

 

We can see that Hipper is at the bottom of the list, with Atago close by. Atago however has better concealment and torps, so it can stealth torp and ambush people with a high alpha broadside of 10 guns.

Everyone else can pump several shells more, with the Martell firing a whooping 17,04 more shells per minute than the Hipper. And while the light cruisers are evenly matched, the RoF of heavy cruisers is out of whack.

Upgrading the Hipper's RoF by one second would give it a RoF of 40 s/m, equal to the Mogami's 203mm guns but still lower than New Orleans and Charles Martell.


 

Quote

12s reload gives the Hipper 40 shells per minute, same as the much more slower firing Mogami 203mm.

11s would give it 43,64 s/m,  which almost reaches NO's RoF. That would already be too much, as the Hipper is better armored than the NO.

10s would be overkill with 48 s/m, as Hipper would then become a rapid firing long range monster with few weaknesses. With such a reload the Hipper would be the go to ship for solo carry games.


 

In my opinion both ships do not need a large buff, rather they both need only a small reload improvement not larger than 2s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
[NWP]
Players
8,124 posts
11,662 battles
6 hours ago, PricelessPlayingPancake said:

:cap_money: yes! I have some news for you - angled bb's laughs at Eugen AP to because it doenst have US AP normalisation values , neither good fire chance , neither rof to set those fires.

 

You get free IFHE which costs everyone else 4 skill points. Yeah the rate of fire is slower than the New Orleans and you've got one less gun.

 

T8 is just a horrible tier for Cruisers as the MM often throws you intro T10 games full of BBs.

 

Angled Eugen/Hippers do pretty well vs USN Cruiser AP too...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester, In AlfaTesters
120 posts
4,738 battles
1 hour ago, Aragathor said:

There's a topic in the cruiser section about the Hipper/Eugen. I have posted there some calculations about the RoF of the ship compared to others:

 

 

 

In my opinion both ships do not need a large buff, rather they both need only a small reload improvement not larger than 2s.

Both ships underperforming massively in all stat categories globally. 10 seconds or tier 9 module would make this ship worth playing. Cruiser that got DD like average damage and worst wr of ALL premium ships (Saipan shouldnt be added) wont become something OP if it gets one strong aspect, instead of being slow , easily detectable He punching bag 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BYOB]
Players
3,074 posts
11,057 battles
39 minutes ago, PricelessPlayingPancake said:

Both ships underperforming massively in all stat categories globally. 10 seconds or tier 9 module would make this ship worth playing. Cruiser that got DD like average damage and worst wr of ALL premium ships (Saipan shouldnt be added) wont become something OP if it gets one strong aspect, instead of being slow , easily detectable He punching bag 

 

I don't disagree with you. but we know that WG has been ignoring the issue for a long time, and one of the reasons could be the crazy ideas put forward by players on how to buff the ship. That isn't going to happen.

What might happen is a small buff, which might improve the situation a bit, especially since a 12s reload would be historically accurate. If enough voices are raised we might get it. But going forward with ideas like 10s reload or tier 9 module will get us nowhere.

And what I would like to know is whether @Kandlyor @Tuccy can step forward and say if a buff is considered by WG, based on the bad stats.

 

I would like to stand up and say that while Hipper and Eugen have the same problems, their issues are separate. Hipper can get by with a small buff, after all it's a silver ship and if you don't like it you can push forward to the Roon.

Prinz Eugen however is the worst tier 8 premium, not only because of the horrible stats but also because it offers nothing to the player beside a +50% commander XP boost. For a ship with a fascinating history it has no identity in the game, ships like the Indianapolis or Krasny Krym have a better presence than her. There is no reason to drop 40€ for a ship, if you can just buy the Hipper with silver and add a permanent camo on it.

 

PS: Interestingly enough New Orleans, the ship sandwiched between Hipper and Eugen at the bottom of the stats is getting downtiered with the USN cruiser split.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
3,577 posts
7,342 battles
9 hours ago, PricelessPlayingPancake said:

:cap_money: yes! I have some news for you - angled bb's laughs at Eugen AP to because it doenst have US AP normalisation values , neither good fire chance , neither rof to set those fires.

 

But German HE have 51mm penetration, so all but Yamato decks are open for damage, as well "OP Kebab/Moskau" hulls

3 hours ago, Negativvv said:

 

You get free IFHE which costs everyone else 4 skill points. Yeah the rate of fire is slower than the New Orleans and you've got one less gun.

 

T8 is just a horrible tier for Cruisers as the MM often throws you intro T10 games full of BBs.

 

Angled Eugen/Hippers do pretty well vs USN Cruiser AP too...

 

Non German 203+IFHE have barely 44mm penetration, which leads you to nowhere, so Germans have more gains here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,743 posts
15,601 battles
8 hours ago, BeauNidl3 said:

Unlikely that Hipper would get Radar (unfortunately), but

 

dude seems like youre unable to read....

that is 100% set the hipper wont ever get radar (if wg stys true to their word) and that wasnt what i proposed...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
15 posts
4,971 battles

Meanwhile someone at WG balance department decided to buff the Khaba, a ship that didn't need help what so ever.

It just makes me sad seing how they ignore a ship that needs some love for so long now.

Seriously, can someone explain to me how one can justify a decision like that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,743 posts
15,601 battles
13 minutes ago, Kuro1047 said:

Meanwhile someone at WG balance department decided to buff the Khaba, a ship that didn't need help what so ever.

 

which one are you refering too?

is it something upcoming or youre refering to the  buff it recived with the general line balancing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HOME]
Players
1,680 posts
9,146 battles
14 minutes ago, Kuro1047 said:

Seriously, can someone explain to me how one can justify a decision like that?

Well, because I'm almost at the end of my tashkent grind and I sent a nice mail to WG that I expected something nice of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
15 posts
4,971 battles
2 minutes ago, Gojuadorai said:

 

which one are you refering too?

is it something upcoming or youre refering to the  buff it recived with the general line balancing?

I'm refering to the range module that the Khaba got on the PTS.

It increases its range to 15.6 km, which is ridiculous combined with its speed and survivability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,743 posts
15,601 battles
19 minutes ago, Kuro1047 said:

I'm refering to the range module that the Khaba got on the PTS.

It increases its range to 15.6 km, which is ridiculous combined with its speed and survivability.

 

is it the same mod as reload? if so i guess ist only a "buff for noobs" therefore largely irellevant

(strange i missed that one i always read all patchnotes for pts and live)

 

PS sry 4 offtopic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester, In AlfaTesters
120 posts
4,738 battles
2 minutes ago, Gojuadorai said:

 

is it the same mod as reload? if so i guess ist only a "buff for noobs" therefore largely irellevant

(strange i missed that one i always read all patchnotes for pts and live)

 

PS sry 4 offtopic

Well, range module makes Khaba damage output lower , but - try to hit 43 kts moving dd from 15km - the distance in which shell velocity drops alot , while time gap for Khaba to react and dodge easily increases. I wouldnt call it buff for noobs, because noobs cant extract that new potential wg is giving to this ship. 

Going back to Eugen - she has a potential to be a solid cruiser if rof gets increased.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
15 posts
4,971 battles
4 minutes ago, Gojuadorai said:

 

is it the same mod as reload? if so i guess ist only a "buff for noobs" therefore largely irellevant

(strange i missed that one i always read all patchnotes for pts and live)

 

PS sry 4 offtopic

It was not mentioned in the patch notes if I remember correctly, however it is in the same spot as the reload boost.

Sadly I had no time to go on the PTS myself. But according to flamu this combo is ridiculous.

To get back to topic, WG balance department really has some issues setting their priorities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×