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kfa

T10 downgrades

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Alright, so i pretty much stopped at the Fletcher like almost everybody else, because the Fletcher has better range on the guns, arguably better torps (in regards of reaction time), a lot better maneuverability, better camo and to top all of that it is Tier9, a bit softer matchmaking. To gain 1 more pewpew, you have to accept that the ship as a whole is worse.

 

Okay lets accept it, i like my Fletcher, move on to the next line, lets try the Shimakaze. I am currently at the Yugumo, its an excellent boat but here comes my second shock: it is also superior in almost all ways to the Tier10. Yugumo has better guns (rof, dispersion and range), a better maneuverability, better camo and it can launch 16 torps with the booster instead of 15.

 

After all this, i have only 1 question left:

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Who cares about range in a US DD? Gering can fire 4 Guns on atack vector while keeping a slim profile. It's Torps can hit ships that aren't pushing into you unlike any other US DD. 

 

Fletcher has its ownupsides like stealth being more nibble and being less prone to BB AP pens but it's no clear cut thing like Yugumo vs Shima.

 

also gering playstlye highly depends on modules and captain skillchoices. It does well what you chose to do well. 

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8 minutes ago, kfa said:

and it can launch 16 torps with the booster instead of 15.

 

The tradeoff is 1 torpedo more for smoke generator. Its not just simply one more so u gotta look at that as a whole.

 

Not disagreeing otherwise with the shima, but that arguement just sounds wrong that way. Should have rather considered the Reload time of the Torpedoes.

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6 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I suggest you look at server stats.

They disprove your claim.

 

the Tier10 ships have 10k avg damage more but have less winrate. wow thats a quality 20M upgrade

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9 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

They disprove your claim.

Damage > Winrate?

 

IIRC Fletcher has better AA, too.

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24 minutes ago, kfa said:

Alright, so i pretty much stopped at the Fletcher like almost everybody else, because the Fletcher has better range on the guns, arguably better torps (in regards of reaction time), a lot better maneuverability, better camo and to top all of that it is Tier9, a bit softer matchmaking. To gain 1 more pewpew, you have to accept that the ship as a whole is worse.

 

Okay lets accept it, i like my Fletcher, move on to the next line, lets try the Shimakaze. I am currently at the Yugumo, its an excellent boat but here comes my second shock: it is also superior in almost all ways to the Tier10. Yugumo has better guns (rof, dispersion and range), a better maneuverability, better camo and it can launch 16 torps with the booster instead of 15.

 

 

Who is everybody else? And why do these people not get their own opinion?

 

How am I supposed to argue  with you since you obv. have not played Shima and Gearing?

 

So many questions.

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19 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

The tradeoff is 1 torpedo more for smoke generator. Its not just simply one more so u gotta look at that as a whole.

With the cruiser-heavy clan battles, all the Moskvas and Des Moines around for perma-radar, smoke is quite irrelevant imho or situational at best (as last resort option to escape). You can't hide a fighting BB anymore, CAs usually have island cover, and a smoke screen is usually a torp magnet anyway. I could actually see our teams taking torp reload over smoke (let alone pick an IJN DD in the first place) if given the opportunity.

 

edit: woops. Jumped into conclusions that this was aimed at CW. Somehow got stuck with another thread's context :> Need coffee...

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3 minutes ago, deadly_if_swallowed said:

With the cruiser-heavy clan battles, all the Moskvas and Des Moines around for perma-radar, smoke is quite irrelevant imho or situational at best (as last resort option to escape). You can't hide a fighting BB anymore, CAs usually have island cover, and a smoke screen is usually a torp magnet anyway. I could actually see our teams taking torp reload over smoke (let alone pick an IJN DD in the first place) if given the opportunity.

Not so clear cut again shima smoke is needed because it's rather slugish and don't enjoy a stealth advantage over gunboats that rip her a new one each time she gets spoted at minimum detection range.

 

Stealth and significantly so is the sole reason Yugumo is clearly better than shima while Fletcher vs gering isnt so clear cut. 

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I agree with the Fletcher being better than the Gearing. Just a personal opinion though. 

I just seem to get BB blapped every time i play the Gearing. Get spotted and i lose 10-15k HP to a BB. 

Fletcher is very good though. Ill rather take a Fletcher into T10 than a Gearing.  But again personal opinion. I know players that really enjoy the Gearing so its probably just my play style. :Smile_Default:

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26 minutes ago, kfa said:

 

the Tier10 ships have 10k avg damage more but have less winrate. wow thats a quality 20M upgrade

Considering last weeks server stats:

Shima beats Kagero in WR, damage, Kills/Battle and survival.

Gearing does the same except in WR. Which means that Gearings faces more often tougher opposition.

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11 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

Not so clear cut again shima smoke is needed because it's rather slugish and don't enjoy a stealth advantage over gunboats that rip her a new one each time she gets spoted at minimum detection range.

 

Stealth and significantly so is the sole reason Yugumo is clearly better than shima while Fletcher vs gering isnt so clear cut. 

 

Shima is sluggish? Shima is considerably more agile than the Yugumo because of its speed

- Shima 39kn (3rd fastest ship at t10)

- Yugumo 35.5kn (slower than a snail that's not in a hurry to go anywhere)

This means that the shima is able to outrun (with speedboost) any other DD apart from the Khaba at t10. That is crucial. It also means that the Yugumo isn't able to outrun an Iowa with a speed flag.

 

Turning circle wise, the Yugumo is indeed better than the Shima but it's worse than the Gearing. A ship that is that slow can't have a turning circle that big as well. So its better turning circle ends up not mattering at all.

 

Stealth wise, yes the Yugumo has an extra 400m on the Shima (5.5km detection vs. 5.9 km detection) but it's not like that's that massive. It helps, that's it. But when you invariably will get spotted by radar or hydro, the Shima has a chance of running away. In the Yugumo, you need a lawyer that can type fast so you can get your will done before you get farmed for xp.

 

And the guns are more or less irrelevant as either of these boats will get eaten alive if they run into any of the hybrids. And what's more, because of the bigger health pool, a Shima will also beat a Yugumo quite handily as well. 

And as far as torpedoes go, the Yugumo has horrible torpedo loading times relative to the number of torpedoes it puts out.

 

So no, the Yugumo isn't better than the Shima at all. 

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21 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Considering last weeks server stats:

Shima beats Kagero in WR, damage, Kills/Battle and survival.

Gearing does the same except in WR. Which means that Gearings faces more often tougher opposition.

 

THis might happen when u look at the wrong ship? :cap_hmm:We were talking about Yugumo.

F.e. last week (not this week which is still running) Yugumo has higher WR, so its basicly stupid to compare it, because sometimes its Yugumo, sometimes shima.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

 

Shima is sluggish? Shima is considerably more agile than the Yugumo because of its speed

- Shima 39kn (3rd fastest ship at t10)

- Yugumo 35.5kn (slower than a snail that's not in a hurry to go anywhere)

This means that the shima is able to outrun (with speedboost) any other DD apart from the Khaba at t10. That is crucial. It also means that the Yugumo isn't able to outrun an Iowa with a speed flag.

 

I get 34,65kts Iowa with Speedflag? Am i missing something or u?

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14 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I get 34,65kts Iowa with Speedflag? Am i missing something or u?

 

Yeah when the difference is 1 kn, you will not be outrunning anything. If you even touch the rudder though, that Iowa will be on top of you in an instant.

Especially true if your engine gets knocked out as even with last stand you will be going at around 27kn or so.

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30 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

 

Shima is sluggish? Shima is considerably more agile than the Yugumo because of its speed

- Shima 39kn (3rd fastest ship at t10)

- Yugumo 35.5kn (slower than a snail that's not in a hurry to go anywhere)

This means that the shima is able to outrun (with speedboost) any other DD apart from the Khaba at t10. That is crucial. It also means that the Yugumo isn't able to outrun an Iowa with a speed flag.

 

Turning circle wise, the Yugumo is indeed better than the Shima but it's worse than the Gearing. A ship that is that slow can't have a turning circle that big as well. So its better turning circle ends up not mattering at all.

 

Stealth wise, yes the Yugumo has an extra 400m on the Shima (5.5km detection vs. 5.9 km detection) but it's not like that's that massive. It helps, that's it. But when you invariably will get spotted by radar or hydro, the Shima has a chance of running away. In the Yugumo, you need a lawyer that can type fast so you can get your will done before you get farmed for xp.

 

And the guns are more or less irrelevant as either of these boats will get eaten alive if they run into any of the hybrids. And what's more, because of the bigger health pool, a Shima will also beat a Yugumo quite handily as well. 

And as far as torpedoes go, the Yugumo has horrible torpedo loading times relative to the number of torpedoes it puts out.

 

So no, the Yugumo isn't better than the Shima at all. 

You underestimate a few things. When DDs spot another DD during cap confrontations they aren't usally allready in a away position. Yugumo usally due to the stealth advantage can avoid geting spoted in the 1st place by cutting speed and turning in. That gives you a huge advantage in reaction time

 

Shima can't and is under fire often before she had any time to react. 

and IJN DDs bleeds a lots speed in a turn after doing a 180 you usally in the low 20 kn range. If a gering just pushes on you and you dont land the lucky torp he an get as close as 4 km before you build up speed again. At that range your in a world of pain if you don't smoke up and if you wave to avoid a pushing gunboat you cant outrun them. 

 

Shima speed is advantage if you open up at longer range like to reset a cap but not so much in a capencounter at minimum spoting distance.

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23 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

 

Yeah when the difference is 1 kn, you will not be outrunning anything. If you even touch the rudder though, that Iowa will be on top of you in an instant.

Especially true if your engine gets knocked out as even with last stand you will be going at around 27kn or so.

 

For me if a DD is spotted by a BB in his normal detection range, i consider it a misplay by the DD (unless ofc his torperange is lower than his detection range, but we are talking about yugumo here).

U know what happens when the Iowa starts turning his rudder? Kinda the same thing, alltho he needs much more time to accelerate than the DD. And we all know what happens with straightlining BBs...

Also another thing: U compare Shima with speedboost and Yugumo without. Yet i feel it useless to activate speedboost just because. If a mistakes happens or u get detected rather use it then to get out of there asap instead of i use it when its not on CD.

 

But basicly it comes down to this: Can the Iowa spot/chase u without knowing where u are? I highly doubt that. Going just straight ahead in one direction makes him a prime target for Torps.

 

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Just now, Spellfire40 said:

You underestimate a few things. When DDs spot another DD during cap confrontations they aren't usally allready in a away position. Yugumo usally due to the stealth advantage can avoid geting spoted in the 1st place by cutting speed and turning in. That gives you a huge advantage in reaction time

 

Shima can't and is under fire often before she had any time to react. 

and IJN DDs bleeds a lots speed in a turn after doing a 180 you usally in the low 20 kn range. If a gering just pushes on you and you dont land the lucky torp he an get as close as 4 km before you build up speed again. At that range your in a world of pain if you don't smoke up and if you wave to avoid a pushing gunboat you cant outrun them. 

 

Shima speed is advantage if you open up at longer range like to reset a cap but not so much in a capencounter at minimum spoting distance.

 

If the situation is the same (bow into a cap) it doesn't matter if it's a Shima or a Yugumo - either of them will get spotted. The Yugumo later, obviously. But in that situation both of them either smoke or they die. 

If they have the stern toward an enemy the Shima will get away and the Yugumo won't.

I don't see how turning into a cap will help you avoid being spotted in a Yugumo. And yes, you have an advantage in reaction time. And when you react, what do you do, exactly? Again, if something wants to chase you down, it will chase you down. 

With the Shima you have the same reaction time as the enemy. You can at least smoke, turn and then speed boost out of there.

 

At any rate, the Yugumo is not really more agile than the Shima which is not sluggish at all. 

Literally the only thing the Yugumo has over the Shima is 50m better turning circle. 

 

The Yugumo is not a better boat. The Shima is hampered only by the fact that it's top tier all the time so it always has mirrored matchmaking. That means that you will always be up against another Shima, if you're lucky, but, more often than not, you will be up against Gearing, Z52, Grozo or Khaba which usually have more impact on matches.

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14 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

Yeah when the difference is 1 kn, you will not be outrunning anything. If you even touch the rudder though, that Iowa will be on top of you in an instant.

 

Total bollocks. First: its faster. No matter what. Second: Why should the Iowa have a speedflag and the DD not? But. the most important no.3: You are telling me, that the iowa is doing the EXAKT same bearing as the DD. This is MUST to set distance and speed in direct coalition. If the DD will touch the rudder, and change the bearing, the distance will increase. Its Pythagoras. You also learn this in basics of navigation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras#Mathematical_discoveries

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5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

For me if a DD is spotted by a BB in his normal detection range, i consider it a misplay by the DD (unless ofc his torperange is lower than his detection range, but we are talking about yugumo here).

U know what happens when the Iowa starts turning his rudder? Kinda the same thing, alltho he needs much more time to accelerate than the DD. And we all know what happens with straightlining BBs...

Also another thing: U compare Shima with speedboost and Yugumo without. Yet i feel it useless to activate speedboost just because. If a mistakes happens or u get detected rather use it then to get out of there asap instead of i use it when its not on CD.

 

But basicly it comes down to this: Can the Iowa spot/chase u without knowing where u are? I highly doubt that. Going just straight ahead in one direction makes him a prime target for Torps.

 

 

You are latching onto a situation that I used simply to highlight that you cannot get away from an Iowa if it's heading at you, in a Yugumo. That is still true. It's also a situation that obviously doesn't happen very often. 

What does happen often though is you get spotted by radar (which you cannot always see coming) you try to run away, you get shot at, your engine dies, you repair again because if you go at 28kn, you are toast, and then it gets knocked out again before you're out of radar range. And then enemy DDs just chase you down. 

Another thing that happens quite often is you sail around, then an enemy DD pops up in front of you (at 6km or so), and before you can turn, it will be in spotting range. You smoke and hope you get help otherwise, any smart player will just wait for your smoke to run out then kill you... because you canot outrun anything.

 

And 8% out of 39kn means an extra 3.1kn in the Shima. In the Yugumo, you get an extra 2.8kn. That means that a Yugumo with speed boost active won't be able to get away from a Shima or a Grozo without speed boost active.

 

My point is that, once you get spotted, it is very difficult to get away.

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7 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

 

If the situation is the same (bow into a cap) it doesn't matter if it's a Shima or a Yugumo - either of them will get spotted. The Yugumo later, obviously. But in that situation both of them either smoke or they die. 

If they have the stern toward an enemy the Shima will get away and the Yugumo won't.

I don't see how turning into a cap will help you avoid being spotted in a Yugumo. And yes, you have an advantage in reaction time. And when you react, what do you do, exactly? Again, if something wants to chase you down, it will chase you down. 

With the Shima you have the same reaction time as the enemy. You can at least smoke, turn and then speed boost out of there.

 

If something can chase u down from a cap towards your own spawn, then its a) your own [edited]up or b) your teams [edited]up. Most likely the first one if u decide to go into a cap without backup and a slow DD.

Most (all?) hightier Caps are so big that u know before u are spotted that something is inside the cap. Turn in advange, be ready to run, and have speedboost ready. U spot them before they spot u. Even when they chase u, it will take them some time until they detect u, which gives your Cruisers and BBs time to deal with him or make him turn away.

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4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Total bollocks. First: its faster. No matter what. Second: Why should the Iowa have a speedflag and the DD not? But. the most important no.3: You are telling me, that the iowa is doing the EXAKT same bearing as the DD. This is MUST to set distance and speed in direct coalition. If the DD will touch the rudder, and change the bearing, the distance will increase. Its Pythagoras. You also learn this in basics of navigation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras#Mathematical_discoveries

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The distance would increase if it could maintain speed which, once you use the rudder, doesn't happen.

 

You are however missing the point. I was just portraying a situation where the Yugumo would actually struggle. Even if neither of them have speed flag, the 2.5kn difference is almost nothing. Try running a Shima next to a Gearing (3kn difference) and see how long it takes for the Shima to get away.

It's literally just an example to showcase just how slow the Yugumo is. So slow that there are BBs that get close to your top speed.

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1 hour ago, MortenTardo said:

I agree with the Fletcher being better than the Gearing. Just a personal opinion though. 

I just seem to get BB blapped every time i play the Gearing. Get spotted and i lose 10-15k HP to a BB. 

Fletcher is very good though. Ill rather take a Fletcher into T10 than a Gearing.  But again personal opinion. I know players that really enjoy the Gearing so its probably just my play style. :Smile_Default:

Gearing is entirely different beast than Fletcher. Latter can be anything you build into - epic torpedoboat, excellent gunboat, capable AA escort and anything inbeetween. Gearing on other hand is kinda shoehorned into gunboat role - specced as torpedoboat she's inferior to Fletcher, but she can murder all DD opposition as gunboat at close range due to her 2.4s reload and great turret layout - 2/3 firepower at front and rear turret have excellent firing angles. Bigger issue is her increased size and overall clumsiness compared to Fletcher, making BB AP pens more common and harder to evade in first place.

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Just now, DFens_666 said:

If something can chase u down from a cap towards your own spawn, then its a) your own [edited]up or b) your teams [edited]up. Most likely the first one if u decide to go into a cap without backup and a slow DD.

Most (all?) hightier Caps are so big that u know before u are spotted that something is inside the cap. Turn in advange, be ready to run, and have speedboost ready. U spot them before they spot u. Even when they chase u, it will take them some time until they detect u, which gives your Cruisers and BBs time to deal with him or make him turn away.

 

Wait are you teaching me how to play DDs now? Is that what's going on?

Cool  :cap_like:

 

You run into other DDs outside of caps as well. That is especially true late game. And if the enemy DD also has RPF then it will eventually run you down.

 

If the whole argument here is "oh, but I spot enemy DDs 300-500m before they spot me" then there's no point me arguing. If you don't know that distance can be covered by an enemy DD very fast, then there isn't really anything I can do to convince you.

 

The only thing that I dispute is that the Yugumo is a better boat than the Shima. It's not. The stats agree with me (win rate is almost the same - less than 1% difference) while average damage is like 13k higher for the Shima (that's a 37% increase btw). What's more top players in the Yugumo get around 77k avg damage, while in the Shima they get around 97k (that's a 25% increase) which shows us that the Shima has higher potential as well.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

The distance would increase if it could maintain speed which, once you use the rudder, doesn't happen.

 

You are wrong there m8. With a differnce of 10° in bearing the distance between the ships - traveling at same speed - will increase by 17,43%. Already at only 1° difference, the Yugumo - at same speed - would gain 1,74% Distance. Again, you cant go the exakt same course as the DD + the DD is still faster. If you dont follow the same course, distance WILL incrase. You would need to have, meassured in %, the same proportional speedadvantage as the distance increases due to the different course to keep the SAME distance!

 

15 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

You are however missing the point. I was just portraying a situation where the Yugumo would actually struggle.

 

Then call it like it is. You first post wasnt portraying this situation:

 

1 hour ago, Teob_VG said:

It also means that the Yugumo isn't able to outrun an Iowa with a speed flag.

 

Which the Yugumo is. Easy.

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