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196 posts in this topic

24 minutes ago, Thracen said:

 

Oh and I can't ever remember playing a multiplayer game where I "felt" that 1 character, loadout or class was so much more responsible for the match outcome than the others. CVs in wows,

 


Base units in Star Craft and Warcraft, you can have specialist units all you want, but if you don't have a strong support of those base units at first, it's auto lose in most cases.

Carry characters in MOBA games. As one of those, you can do without a good support by playing safe, but if your team doesn't have a good carry and if the enemy team isn't completely incompetent, you lose. If you want proof, trying playing 5 support characters versus 5 carry characters.

Inversely, healers in a lot of MMORPGs with team arenas and boss raids. You can have all the DPS and tanks you want, if you don't have a good healer, you're lost before you started.

 

Vehicles in Battlefield series. Get some bad players in tanks, and it's auto lose.

 


I could go on for a while.


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On 11/14/2017 at 5:29 PM, BeauNidl3 said:

Just got deleted by Enterprise AP bombs 5 mins into a game from about full HP in Bismarck after a Lion shot away my AA in 2 salvo's.

In fun and engaging terms CV's ruin games, they have no counter if their driver knows how to play at all well.

How many times have you ruled the fun of a cruiser? Not that it matters if you had full AA unless you spec manual AA in a Bismark with us bomber groups....


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On 11/16/2017 at 9:46 AM, Exocet6951 said:

So there are people asking for buffs on their favorite ships, no surprise there.
I've seen people asking for Yamato buffs and Kebab buffs.

You can't just take that extreme and generalize to all "CV players".

 

 

He did NOT! He said in his NEXT sentence, that he is targeting ONE guy - the OP.

On 11/16/2017 at 0:45 AM, DFens_666 said:

Yet i read ppl who have 70-80% WR with CVs claiming they need buffs. Dont u think that is odd? :cap_hmm: That would be like me saying Buff Fiji, which wouldnt make any sense as it is a strong ship, but ppl can do terribly bad in it.

Look at the guy who opened this thread. U think his oppinion is correct because he has 2000+ matches with CVs? I hope not...

 

But that wouldnt be convinient to attack him, no wouldnt it, so just take his sentence out of context. *Edited

Also:

 

On 11/16/2017 at 9:46 AM, Exocet6951 said:

So there are people asking for buffs on their favorite ships, no surprise there.

 

Decent people dont ask to get their toy buffed. If they know, they only get a good winrate out of it, cuz that specific ships allows it, due to a loophole in the system or having better capabilities, they would use their good view on it to ask for a nerf - I do all the time for RN BBs, yet I have a winrate of 76% in them. Shall I go and ask for... buffs? I myself would find it absolutly stupid to ask this. Im calling for a nerf.

 

And then go on telling me:

 

On 11/16/2017 at 9:46 AM, Exocet6951 said:

Wow, look at me asking for someone to have actually PLAYED a unique class with unique mechanics before they tell everyone HOW they should be played.

 

I cant take your serious, if you "discuss" on this level. First: Where do you have the hindsight, that tells you, I never did? Just cuz THIS profile doesnt show. You have a lot to learn. Second: Ill say it again - Judge the people by what they say, not what their stats tell. and, last but not least:

 

On 11/16/2017 at 0:45 AM, DFens_666 said:

How could mankind invent anything when they didnt know before they did it how it actually works?

 

So, please, stop using cars, fire, electricity, cloths and go back to the stonecave, because you can change your logic to everything that mankind has ever invented.

 

On 11/16/2017 at 6:53 AM, El2aZeR said:

Generally speaking though in a PvP game the losing side always has less "fun" (if any at all) than the winning one

 

Exactly ma thought when reading the comment before. Many games are even worse, take a Beat-em-Up in a 1vs1. If the enemy is out of your class, he will not only dominate you and play with you and for both players its clear from second one, who will win. What makes the loosing player come back? The will to improve. He sure doesnt come back because he enjoys getting trashed. Now I think 2 things in wows are in the way here: First, BBs dont get beat up hard enough when doing things wrong. Quite the opposite, when doing very bad, they will borderhug and be so out of focus that they often enjoy a 20 min cruiseship-simulator. So they might not have as much fun as someone who plays a BB to all his abilities, but they arent beeing angered either. So they have no will to improve? They also dont see their mistakes.

And second about the will to improve: With a passive mechanic like AA in place. How does a player improve on AA? Sure, you can skill your captain for it. Gameplay is still passive. You can slot DefAA, giving up Hydro, and maybe be pissed the next round, cuz there was no CV but all of a sudden 5 DDs and you sink by torps in minute 2. You can learn, which is the best way to steer your ship when you see a CV coming for you - thats the most active part of that engagement.

Thats why I, for a while now, have strong oppinions that a) CVs should be able to punish Ships (especially BBs), that missplay, even more and b) Cruisers must have all the tools to do their jobs at all times, thus having Hydro AND DefAA.

 

On 11/16/2017 at 4:37 AM, HaganeNoKaze said:

Any class should start to be fun before being efficient. In the case of the CV, I would find better to hit with 150 torpedoes each game dealing each for 1 point of damage instead of having 1 torpedo nearly impossible to hit with able to OS any ship, or even a nuclear warhead !... the first case is fun, even if you deal only 150 damage per game, the second is not and stupid above that, even if you deal thousand and thousand damage.

 

I understand what you are coming from. But it would remove 1 thing from CVs that every other class has - the capability to devasted an enemy. BBs have it - no doubt - Cruisers have it - if the enemy misplayed or they use torpedos - and DDs have it with their torps aswell. Yesterday, when watching flamu playing the GZ Test II I was thinking: Maybe WG isnt moving in such a bad direction? Lets look at the Graf Z there. His planes are lowtier /t6/. So he cant go near the fleet (it happened, when he tries to strike the Colorado), cuz he will lose planes. He has 10 planes per squad (fighter and bomber). So the enemy can shoot down a few planes without the Graf Z losing that much strikingpower. Also, the Bombs are strong against BBs. So basicly, the Graf Z hunts down lonly ships and can devasted them quickly. It lacks however the crazyniss to ignore a fleets combined AA and thus can hardly touch a group of ships. Its basicly what im looking for in a CV. There is one but: +/-1 mm is an absolute must for a CV like this, no question in my mind. You cant balance it around +/-2.

 

 

@159Hunter Please, I know, the thread is long. But go back and read the recent posts. Its obvious - you didnt. Number 3 of the solo-WR-guys and even more has been broken up and discussed. Read up and then feel free to join the discussion.

Edited by Nohe21
*This post has been edited by the moderation team due to disrespectful comments.

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3 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

A cooldown on strafing maybe? I must admit, it does feel a little bit dirty when I shred all squads of an inexperienced CV player with mutltiple strafes. :cap_hmm:

 

That sounds pretty good i think :cap_like:That way Saipan could receive his much needed nerf:cap_haloween:

 

3 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

You can't just take that extreme and generalize to all "CV players".

 

Then u cant say that everyone who has little CV experience has no clue what should change about them. Its the same thing basicly.

 

5 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

A won: 120 / 220 = 54,5%

B won : 380 / 780 = 48,7 %

 

Ye so the total WR for that CV Tier is 50%...:fish_palm: It always is. Basicly its less because of Draws. U cant look at total Server WR and argue that something is not OP (not saying that it is, but to prove this point) when they need to have 50% WR. If there would be 2 Flints Every time they meet they wouldnt have 70% anymore. So they arent OP then? :cap_hmm:

 

5 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

That is btw not what Avenger is saying, he is saying: they are OP. Look at their ludicrous WR. That's what he said. As for .... CERTAIN .... CERTAIN... . Are you telling me now that a Flint is less OP than a Saipan?

 

Actually f.e. what ive been saying is, that the top CV players have a higher WR than top Players in the other 3 Classes, yet most ppl will deny that even tho u put the numbers right in front of them. Go back, i posted a screenshot with last weeks matcheds from the best players. If 10 out of 100 players have a WR >90% and the other 3 classes combined dont have that, so than CVs actually do have a higher WR than other classes when played by the best players.

At the same time probably CVs have also the worst WR from the bottom % of players.

5 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

Look at number 3, he manages to do so.

 

Once again go back a page or 2 or look at this guys profile. 6k matches with Orlan, yep surely that qualifies for anything :fish_palm:


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5 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

 Are you telling me now that a Flint is less OP than a Saipan?

 

Actually after looking at the top WRs i come to the conclusion that Saipan is infact more OP than the Flint. Basicly the top WRs from Flint are mostly only just above 30 matches. Saipan top WRs are >100 matches. So they are much more consistent in winning matches. Also they do have higher WR in general, but now u will say but the Flint guy has 96+%.

Ok i looked at his profile, 29 out of 30 matches he played with 3-Man Division. IN that matches he shot down an AVERAGE of almost 15 planes! What does that tell us? He divisioned with a CV mostly if not in all games, which might have been a Saipan.

2nd guy in the Flint ranking? 20 out of 36 matches 3-man Division (all won btw), but again almost 15 planekills on average.

Now look at the first in Saipan WR. While he did play 65~% of the matches in 3-man Division, his WR in 2-man Division is even better, but ofc Solo is worse, but still 77%

Also in theory a Flint is given as a reward to the best players of this game, so they naturally have a high WR in it. A Good CV player might not own saipan because he doesnt want to spend money.

 

I would put it like this: Both ships are OP, yet the one with the bigger match influence takes the victory, aka the Saipan because a CV does have that. Especially Saipan has that because of his "features".


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Carriers are simply massively OP.
Especially if you find yourself sailing:
USN CAs, RN CAs, RU CAs, high tier KM CAs, high tier RU DDs, high tier USN DDs, USN BBs, RN BBs, higher tier KM BBS... (I probably missed few more).
Or you are dumb enough to sail close to some of that ships.
Man, they can simply do whatever they want.

 

 

 


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7 hours ago, Thracen said:

OK, how can you guys say most players are idiotic mouth breathers, then go on to describe idealised mechanics that this baseline player just isn't going to grasp?

 

Implying sticking together with your teammates or using the chat for basic team communication demands a ludicrous amount of skill.

 

5 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

With a passive mechanic like AA in place. How does a player improve on AA?

 

By not exposing yourself in the first place and playing with your team. However, no one ever tells you that. The game itself is contradictory on this point. It rewards selfish actions while teamplay mostly gets neglected, thus the first logical conclusion a normal person comes to is that they should be able to deal with air strikes alone as well, even if it is utterly wrong.


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6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

zYe so the total WR for that CV Tier is 50%...:fish_palm: It always is. Basicly its less because of Draws. U cant look at total Server WR and argue that something is not OP (not saying that it is, but to prove this point) when they need to have 50% WR. If there would be 2 Flints Every time they meet they wouldnt have 70% anymore. So they arent OP then? :cap_hmm:

Ofc for that TIER. But TIER =/= SHIP. So by looking at the numbers you'll see the imbalance between the ships at that tier. And if one clearly has better WR it means that said ship is better than the other. What does that mean? CV A will outplay CV B and thus it will frustrate: CV B player, cause his ship is not balanced with CV A, it will annoy the players on team B cause their CV gets outplayed over and over again. So maybe a first step would be to balance A and B to match up.

Secondly, their is the aspect of players. You can't fix stupid. So if people insists on sailing solo when a CV is in game, then ofc. CVs will Always be OP to them. Same as people who average 35k dmg in a Saipan will call them UP. But that's the playerbase, can't fix that.

 

Actually f.e. what ive been saying is, that the top CV players have a higher WR than top Players in the other 3 Classes, yet most ppl will deny that even tho u put the numbers right in front of them. Go back, i posted a screenshot with last weeks matcheds from the best players. If 10 out of 100 players have a WR >90% and the other 3 classes combined dont have that, so than CVs actually do have a higher WR than other classes when played by the best players.

At the same time probably CVs have also the worst WR from the bottom % of players.

So what you are saying is that unicum players do great in a CV, potatoes do bad. Won't deny that. Does that make the class OP?

 

 

6 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

@159Hunter Please, I know, the thread is long. But go back and read the recent posts. Its obvious - you didnt. Number 3 of the solo-WR-guys and even more has been broken up and discussed. Read up and then feel free to join the discussion.

You said it was impossible, I gave you an example that it was possible. Nothing more, norhing less. If you want to make generic statements, expect these responses.

Same as people calling all CVs OP, a generic comment which is wrong. Some are OP ( I won't deny that, as some other ships are OP ), but others aren't. And what's even worse is that most of the players claiming they are OP have never even touched a high tier CV...


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1 minute ago, 159Hunter said:

Ofc for that TIER. But TIER =/= SHIP. So by looking at the numbers you'll see the imbalance between the ships at that tier. And if one clearly has better WR it means that said ship is better than the other. What does that mean? CV A will outplay CV B and thus it will frustrate: CV B player, cause his ship is not balanced with CV A, it will annoy the players on team B cause their CV gets outplayed over and over again. So maybe a first step would be to balance A and B to match up.

Secondly, their is the aspect of players. You can't fix stupid. So if people insists on sailing solo when a CV is in game, then ofc. CVs will Always be OP to them. Same as people who average 35k dmg in a Saipan will call them UP. But that's the playerbase, can't fix that.

 

Uff... it was never about that. It was about ppl saying CVs have lower Server WR without understand why it HAS TO BE THAT WAY. Also in your own example Same type CVs play against each other so the WR is ofc 50%. Its logical that some CVs do ofc have higher WR because a) they are just better b) they usually dont play against the same kind because they are played less or by less players in total. This is true for Premium CVs, because they are stronger and played by fewer ppl. Also its true for silver IJN vs US CVs, because the latter is inferior to the first one, and they represant the majority of CV matches.

 

1 minute ago, 159Hunter said:

You said it was impossible, I gave you an example that it was possible. Nothing more, norhing less. If you want to make generic statements, expect these responses.

Same as people calling all CVs OP, a generic comment which is wrong. Some are OP ( I won't deny that, as some other ships are OP ), but others aren't. And what's even worse is that most of the players claiming they are OP have never even touched a high tier CV...

 

First of, u are obviously confusing us with some other CV haters, because we didnt say that they are OP. Yes, Saipan is OP, i said that, no denying there. If Kaga or GZ are/will be OP, not sure about that.

Doesnt change the fact that

a) Top CV players have higher WRs than top other class players. This is also true for the worst players where CVs have lower WR than the other classes.

b) The high skill ceiling for CVs is frustrating when u have a potato CV on your team, who uses autodrop/doesnt strafe on *insert any hightier CV*

Sure everyone is allowed to play any ship they want, yet  playing a class which has a decisive impact on the game outcome and totaly suck in it is pretty awful for the other teammembers. But thx to WG new CV players cant learn Manual drop properly on lowertiers where it is easy (easier) to learn.


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@159Hunter if you so persistently avoid reading, then dont participate in the discussion. You still didnt read up. Please dont quote me anymore, I wont try to get through to you. Have a nice day.

 

58 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

By not exposing yourself in the first place and playing with your team. However, no one ever tells you that. The game itself is contradictory on this point. It rewards selfish actions while teamplay mostly gets neglected, thus the first logical conclusion a normal person comes to is that they should be able to deal with air strikes alone as well, even if it is utterly wrong.

 

This also. Ive never understood, why most ppl dont care about the fighters first, f.e. Isnt it an easy conclusion, that: "If I help my CV getting rid of the fighters = he will have air-superiority = im safe from enemy CV aswell". Sure, the game could and should give you those kind of tips (other games do this, they give very basic tips but also pretty specific, deep informations) but every player should be able to come to this conclusion aswell? Its not even limitied to ppl in Cruisers and Battleships. In 2 vs 2 CV games, its pretty common that atleast 1 of the 4 CVs doesnt get this and screws the first encounter of all fighters.

 

 


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16 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

But seriously, it shouldn't be too hard to show a little advice to new CV players about manual attacks, even for WG. Just knowing that they exist should help many players.

 

It shouldn't be too hard to make a huge notification window appear when a player gets his first T6+ CV:

 

"

You have unlocked a mid / higher tier CV, now you can use Manual Attacks with your planes - they require more practice and control, but you will deal more damage to enemy ships (with bombers) or enemy plane squadrons (with fighters).

You can also use this new feature to get out of dogfight if needed, but this will cost you 1 plane.

We suggest to practice the manual attack in some Coop Battles.

Get ready to farm delicious anti-CV whiners' tears.

Kind regards,

#####

"


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22 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Sure, sure. :)

 

:fish_palm:

Spoiler

 

subtle_hint.thumb.JPG.f767ffa26fbb5af1d018c8cd342c3bdf.JPG

 

rhetorical questionts regarding your nonsensical "arguments" = real questions regarding CVs

confirmed

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:


Base units in Star Craft and Warcraft, you can have specialist units all you want, but if you don't have a strong support of those base units at first, it's auto lose in most cases.

..................

 

CVs being 1/12 of a team playing the major role in the outcome of the match over everyone else, fits your description perfectly I guess. )))))))))))

 

 

 

 

Another small hint:

 

2 teams full or red baddies, one side with a purple Zao/Montana/Shima/whatever, the other side with a purple Hakuryu, now let this match happen 100 times.

 

Guess who will decide the major amount of the matches for himself. CVs very balanced.


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12 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Isnt it an easy conclusion, that: "If I help my CV getting rid of the fighters = he will have air-superiority = im safe from enemy CV aswell".

 

Really, it should be. Sad truth however is that most CV players view their fighters only as either a means to get strikes through or as a secondary bonus task. Protecting your own team is paramount, it should be given the same as, if not perhaps a higher priority than scouting and dealing damage, yet most will put their focus only on dealing damage as that is the only thing directly benefiting themselves. And in a way that's not actually wrong as damage is still the primary source of income for all ships.

So technically speaking CV players have facilitated this behavior themselves, but it is part of a broader problem as selfish play plagues the entirety of the playerbase.

 

1 minute ago, avenger121 said:

rhetorical questionts regarding your nonsensical "arguments" = real questionst regarding CVs

 

Yes, yes, keep diverting attention away from the actual question at hand, as you know you have no way of defending your pathetic agenda otherwise. :)


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11 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

@159Hunter if you so persistently avoid reading, then dont participate in the discussion. You still didnt read up. Please dont quote me anymore, I wont try to get through to you. Have a nice day.

 

That's the easy way out. fyi, I have read the entire topic.

But hey, your call.

 

11 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Uff... it was never about that. It was about ppl saying CVs have lower Server WR without understand why it HAS TO BE THAT WAY. Also in your own example Same type CVs play against each other so the WR is ofc 50%. Its logical that some CVs do ofc have higher WR because a) they are just better b) they usually dont play against the same kind because they are played less or by less players in total. This is true for Premium CVs, because they are stronger and played by fewer ppl. Also its true for silver IJN vs US CVs, because the latter is inferior to the first one, and they represant the majority of CV matches.

Okay, so avenger says they have ludicrously HIGH WR, you say they have LOWER WR. Which one is it?

I agree on the Italic part.

 

11 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

 

First of, u are obviously confusing us with some other CV haters, because we didnt say that they are OP. Yes, Saipan is OP, i said that, no denying there. If Kaga or GZ are/will be OP, not sure about that.

Doesnt change the fact that

a) Top CV players have higher WRs than top other class players. This is also true for the worst players where CVs have lower WR than the other classes.

b) The high skill ceiling for CVs is frustrating when u have a potato CV on your team, who uses autodrop/doesnt strafe on *insert any hightier CV*

Sure everyone is allowed to play any ship they want, yet  playing a class which has a decisive impact on the game outcome and totaly suck in it is pretty awful for the other teammembers. But thx to WG new CV players cant learn Manual drop properly on lowertiers where it is easy (easier) to learn.

Ofc Saipan is OPn Kaga prolly as well. But only when played by a player that knows what he's doing in a CV. Same as any other ship. Put a potato in one and he'll fail.

a) So a unicum CV player will have higher WR, okay. But now, is that only becaus he knows how to play well? Or is that also because the general server population seems to be dumbing down, not knowing how to react to a CV?

b) And again, having a potato CV doesn't mean an auto loss, same as having a unicum CV doesn't mean auto win. How else would I be able to win in my CV when playing against Reyte? It's because as soon as the game started I gave my team a headsup and they acted accordingly, whilst Reytes team messed up by solo yoloing and what not.

So yes, unicum players tend to do great i CVs, but only if the enemy team allows him and if his own team keeps him in the game.

 

I actually agree with WG removing strafing and manual drops from lowtier CVs. Way too much easy sealclubbing with 19p captains was happening on tier IV and V, which was ruining the game for new CVs and other low tier ships with no AA. Sure, now they need to learn it at a later stage, and there WG should step in and create a mandatory tutorial for any player that unlocks/buys a +V CV. Just show him how much more valuable strafing and manual dropping is and they "might" see the light.


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2 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

 

Okay, so avenger says they have ludicrously HIGH WR, you say they have LOWER WR. Which one is it?

I agree on the Italic part.

 

One person is talking about the WR of the class itself, which is always going to be limited due to mirror MM.

 

The other is talking about the solo WR achieveable by a good player - that a good player in a CV is capable of achieving a higher WR than a good player in a DD/BB/CA.

I havent looked at solo WR so I don't know what the actual figures are


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1 hour ago, Xevious_Red said:

I havent looked at solo WR so I don't know what the actual figures are

 

@Commander_Cornflakes and me did look at the Top 10 in Solo Winrate on the Server its this + the next post. Edit: actually its this + my post two below. I have the other guy inbetween on ignore ;)

 

1 hour ago, Xevious_Red said:

One person is talking about the WR of the class itself, which is always going to be limited due to mirror MM.

 

The other is talking about the solo WR achieveable by a good player - that a good player in a CV is capable of achieving a higher WR than a good player in a DD/BB/CA.

 

Careful there m8. He didnt understood when @avenger121 said it first. Then I tried to explain this exakt thing to him, twice, then @DFens_666 stepped it. We all got called "making no sense". He is gonna do the same to you. At this point, Im not even sure if he deliberatly dont want to or cant understand, what now 4 people are trying to tell him. Eventhough its not hard to understand the effect of mirrored matchmaking on the overall WR, isnt it?


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4 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

Okay, so avenger says they have ludicrously HIGH WR, you say they have LOWER WR. Which one is it?

I agree on the Italic part.

 

@Xevious_Red answered u about that, maybe u understand it now? Server WR for a class which is ALWAYS mirrored does only tell u limited things i.e. Premium CVs are better than Silver CVs and IJN CVs are better than US CVs.

Avenger meant that INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS can have an insane high WR with CVs.

 

4 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

Ofc Saipan is OPn Kaga prolly as well. But only when played by a player that knows what he's doing in a CV. Same as any other ship. Put a potato in one and he'll fail.

 

But if u put them in a CV they have a larger impact on winning/losing than in a BB/DD/CA. If u put the same Bad player in a CV or in a BB on your team, u will win more often when he plays a BB.

asd.jpg.f73ed4124b1ce0c225ff68faf69556f9.jpg

 

4 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

a) So a unicum CV player will have higher WR, okay. But now, is that only becaus he knows how to play well? Or is that also because the general server population seems to be dumbing down, not knowing how to react to a CV?

 

No, because CVs (can) have a higher Influence on the Game.

 

4 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

b) And again, having a potato CV doesn't mean an auto loss, same as having a unicum CV doesn't mean auto win. How else would I be able to win in my CV when playing against Reyte? It's because as soon as the game started I gave my team a headsup and they acted accordingly, whilst Reytes team messed up by solo yoloing and what not.

 

Ye ofc not, even bad players need to win sometimes when they have 30% WR aswell as good players need to lose sometimes otherwise they would have 100% WR.

 

4 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

I actually agree with WG removing strafing and manual drops from lowtier CVs. Way too much easy sealclubbing with 19p captains was happening on tier IV and V, which was ruining the game for new CVs and other low tier ships with no AA. Sure, now they need to learn it at a later stage, and there WG should step in and create a mandatory tutorial for any player that unlocks/buys a +V CV. Just show him how much more valuable strafing and manual dropping is and they "might" see the light.

 

Could have implemented other things to prevent that. Btw u do know that ppl still use 19 pt cptns on lower tiers? Ive seen several (atleast 10+ pt cptns) and i played like ~25 CV games after they changed Manual drop. I would say its even worse now, because a good CV player can still bring in high damage numbers on lowtiers. And with 7 fighter planes Langley is pretty much king of the battle field, i dont know why he did it, one time, but i managed to bait him over 3! allied ships in my Hosho which meant 7 vs 4 Fighters, and i STILL LOST. But on the positive note he lost enough planes that i did take Air-control after i launched my 2nd squad.

Learning Manual drop on T6 is so much harder than on T4. Basicly i had to do both because i started to play CVs just before they changed the mechanics. I was a liability for my team for several matches when i played my Independence after months without using manual drop.

 

Currently thats basicly how it goes down:

- Start playing CV, click attack enemy Fighters, click drop enemy surface ships with your Bombers.

- Get to T5 and when u get a match with 4 CVs, 2 of which are T6 then, they can strafe your squads and u cant do anything about it. Even if u wanted to learn it u are not allowed to use it.

Thats a huge difference to how it was before. If u got strafed at T4 u had the option to learn to use it.

Also as i said before, learning manual drop vs fast ships with better AA is very hard. Atleast i had some training before i had to do it on T6. But when u have to learn it from 0 it think it will be so frustrating that u just keep using Autodrop. Atleast for the average joe.

 


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6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

@Xevious_Red answered u about that, maybe u understand it now? Server WR for a class which is ALWAYS mirrored does only tell u limited things i.e. Premium CVs are better than Silver CVs and IJN CVs are better than US CVs.

Avenger meant that INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS can have an insane high WR with CVs.

Now that makes more sense. That's what a forum is about, discussing and explaining.

@Xevious_Red ty

6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

But if u put them in a CV they have a larger impact on winning/losing than in a BB/DD/CA. If u put the same Bad player in a CV or in a BB on your team, u will win more often when he plays a BB.

asd.jpg.f73ed4124b1ce0c225ff68faf69556f9.jpg

 

Sounds logical, but does that make CV as a class OP?

Or is it because one BB is just one of a few of that class. So you can compensate for a bad BB with a few good BB to flatten the skill of all your BB class ships in a game?

 

6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

No, because CVs (can) have a higher Influence on the Game.

Sure, that's how WG designed them. But there is a perfect counter to it which is called teamplay. ( and for the record I don't care about sealclubbing with IV and V CVs, I'm talking tiers where AA actually exists ). It's so easy to severely negate the CV's influence on a game, but the overall stupidity and lack of communication of the playerbase just makes this very hard. So blaming everything on CV and nothing on playerbase is just a cheap way out.

 

6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

 

Ye ofc not, even bad players need to win sometimes when they have 30% WR aswell as good players need to lose sometimes otherwise they would have 100% WR.

And why does a 30% WR player win? One could say that those 30% are the only games where the team played well and negated the CV effect. A proof that you can counter CVs?

Ofc, a potato is way easier to counter than a unicum player.

 

6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

 

Could have implemented other things to prevent that. Btw u do know that ppl still use 19 pt cptns on lower tiers? Ive seen several (atleast 10+ pt cptns) and i played like ~25 CV games after they changed Manual drop. I would say its even worse now, because a good CV player can still bring in high damage numbers on lowtiers. And with 7 fighter planes Langley is pretty much king of the battle field, i dont know why he did it, one time, but i managed to bait him over 3! allied ships in my Hosho which meant 7 vs 4 Fighters, and i STILL LOST. But on the positive note he lost enough planes that i did take Air-control after i launched my 2nd squad.

Learning Manual drop on T6 is so much harder than on T4. Basicly i had to do both because i started to play CVs just before they changed the mechanics. I was a liability for my team for several matches when i played my Independence after months without using manual drop.

Sure, people still do bring 19p captains to the table. And if people want to sealclub, it's their game. But by removing manual drop and strafe you remove the skill bit and allow players to get used to the ui and the different playstyle.

The reason you lost is because AA is non-existent at those tiers, that's why playing CVs at those tiers is easy, you don't need to look where you fly your planes. Making sealclubbing that much easier.

Sure they could have done other things, as in limit the amount of captain points, or look at amount of battles played in a tier IV / V CV and when you reach a certain threshold that would allow you to grind the next tier, they'd no longer match you to new CVs. But that only solved part of the problem, the rest of the ships where still affected ( remember, they also need to learn how to deal with CVs).

 

 

6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Currently thats basicly how it goes down:

- Start playing CV, click attack enemy Fighters, click drop enemy surface ships with your Bombers.

- Get to T5 and when u get a match with 4 CVs, 2 of which are T6 then, they can strafe your squads and u cant do anything about it. Even if u wanted to learn it u are not allowed to use it.

Thats a huge difference to how it was before. If u got strafed at T4 u had the option to learn to use it.

Also as i said before, learning manual drop vs fast ships with better AA is very hard. Atleast i had some training before i had to do it on T6. But when u have to learn it from 0 it think it will be so frustrating that u just keep using Autodrop. Atleast for the average joe.

 

And that's a flaw in the solution WG provided, they should never allow tier VI CV in matches with tier V CVs.

Why is it frustrating? Because WG is not helping players, they have to go look on YouTube for Farra's guides to learn something about CVs. Compared to WG, CCP managed to have great tutorials for EVE 10 years ago ( and those were questionable at best).

 

@ForlornSailor pro tip: if you ignore someone, making indirect referrals to post you are supposedly ignoring is kinda dumb. You know, just saying.


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1 minute ago, 159Hunter said:

Now that makes more sense. That's what a forum is about, discussing and explaining.

 

1 minute ago, 159Hunter said:

 pro tip: if you ignore someone, making indirect referrals to post you are supposedly ignoring is kinda dumb. You know, just saying.

 

Thx for the tip. Here is one from me: If 2 people before you had a problem understanding 1 thing, and you are number 3 arguing the same thing in the same thread - one start to have a feeling of fighting windmills. At some point, you will give up. Thats why I told you to go back and read. Which is my tip. Obviously you got it now, atleast something.

 

3 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

And why does a 30% WR player win? One could say that those 30% are the only games where the team played well and negated the CV effect. A proof that you can counter CVs?

 

There are explanations for this also. Two CVs with low WR will ofc face each other also. 1 of them has to win. Ofc there are other factors aswell - A bad CV paired with a very good Div of 3, which have the potential to carry the game. And yea, in conclusion, before you try to nail my logic on Divisions are OP - Divisions have a too big impact on random games, im fully standing behind this. 3 Potatoes will ofther gather to a Super-Potato-Division - or a "Bag of Potatoes" - and hardly anyone can carry that. You can spot them before the game stars. 3x Großer Kurfürst is a good sign. So is 1 Tirpitz and 2 Scharnhorst.

 

10 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

The reason you lost is because AA is non-existent at those tiers, that's why playing CVs at those tiers is easy, you don't need to look where you fly your planes.

 

Oh I beg to differ. 76 DPS @ 5km on T4 can do some decent damage to planes. There is also more possible.

 

13 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Sure they could have done other things, as in limit the amount of captain points, or look at amount of battles played in a tier IV / V CV and when you reach a certain threshold that would allow you to grind the next tier, they'd no longer match you to new CVs.

 

You could ofc always change the impact of captain skills, depending on the tier of the CV. One Captain skill has it. So I wonder, why WG cant get the idea to introduce it on a broader level. Its not even limited to CVs or captains. Give all T8 Cruisers a heal when they are in a T9+ match.


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4 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Sounds logical, but does that make CV as a class OP?

Or is it because one BB is just one of a few of that class. So you can compensate for a bad BB with a few good BB to flatten the skill of all your BB class ships in a game?

 

As i said before, i only consider the Premium CVs OP. Espacially Saipan, Kaga to lesser extend. About GZ time will tell. IJN and US CVs are just out of balance. As for me the biggest problem is the difference in skill is too far apart from good to bad. Getting punished too hard by good CVs early on will only make u quit playing CVs or u just dont give a [edited]about how u perform and u wont improve yourself. Sure some ppl will, but i think the majority doesnt, they are rather go back to play CA/DD/BB.

Sure a bad player in another class can be compensated for much much easier than a CV.

 

4 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Sure, that's how WG designed them. But there is a perfect counter to it which is called teamplay. ( and for the record I don't care about sealclubbing with IV and V CVs, I'm talking tiers where AA actually exists ). It's so easy to severely negate the CV's influence on a game, but the overall stupidity and lack of communication of the playerbase just makes this very hard. So blaming everything on CV and nothing on playerbase is just a cheap way out.

 

The problem here is (what i fell), that WG doesnt care too much about teamwork (recent changes encourage that thought). While true in theory, in practice it doesnt work nearly as good, as u say yourself.

If every match would have one CV it would be a good start so speccing AA is more needed (said that several times already xD), but Cruiser need DefAA and Hydro on seperate slots aswell then.

 

4 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

And why does a 30% WR player win? One could say that those 30% are the only games where the team played well and negated the CV effect. A proof that you can counter CVs?

Ofc, a potato is way easier to counter than a unicum player.

 

I think 2 reasons:

A) his Team might have worked well together (in case the enemy CV was superior)

B) he got an equal bad or low skilled CV player in the enemy team, so the impact from both was low, so the other ships decided who won.

 

4 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Sure, people still do bring 19p captains to the table. And if people want to sealclub, it's their game. But by removing manual drop and strafe you remove the skill bit and allow players to get used to the ui and the different playstyle.

The reason you lost is because AA is non-existent at those tiers, that's why playing CVs at those tiers is easy, you don't need to look where you fly your planes. Making sealclubbing that much easier.

Sure they could have done other things, as in limit the amount of captain points, or look at amount of battles played in a tier IV / V CV and when you reach a certain threshold that would allow you to grind the next tier, they'd no longer match you to new CVs. But that only solved part of the problem, the rest of the ships where still affected ( remember, they also need to learn how to deal with CVs).

 

One thing for me would have been to negate (basicly not allow) the Cptn skill for +1 Fighter/bomber for T4 and T5 CVs. Maybe removing Strafe from T4 would have been viable but leave it for T5 so u can have a learning curve. First learn basics and Manual Drop, without getting strafed to death. At T5 now learn how to Strafe. T4 and T5 CVs shouldnt be put in the same match again, but thats a no-brainer like T5 getting T6 CVs right now which is horrible and should never happen.

 

 


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On 14/11/2017 at 5:13 PM, HMCite said:

Air Craft Carriers are the seriously ignored class of Ships in the game.
These are the reasons Why

1- In lower tiers its playable, but as one advances , the insane AA makes it impossible for CV players to maintain interest in the game.
2- Every now and then Buffs are coming for different ships except for CVs
3- New ships/lines being introduced are having such insane AA. Others have Defensive AA.
4- Every Player has the ability to increase his captain skills to Be able to increase his AA DPM by basic , advance and Manual skills, yet CV doesnt get any Captain skills for improvement of Squaderent health and endurance.
5- BBs and cruisers who are AA specked are already untouchable, add to that new DDs like KIDD and Grozovoi and US DDs Defensive AA, so CV can actually have no impact in the start of the game.
6- CV does spotting, Defends allies and also at times harldy manages to strike on enemy despite all defensive AA and enemy CV AA planes and at the end the Reward for CV is the worst in all the ship types.

7- New changes to DDs AA is further Humiliation to CVs.

Either CVs need to be buffed or AA needs to be nerfed with good rewards at the end
If wargaming keeps the same trend , one day people will say, remember when there used to be CVs in the game??

Not bad, not bad. I like more playing with no CV...

 

A DD player!


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