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Thracen

Matches you just don't get to contribute in.

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This, this is the only aspect of the game I don't like, all the other issues in the game boil down to this for me. Matches where MM, spawns or some other mechanic beyond your control once you are loaded into a game just turn you into a useless target, worth nothing but the points you lose your team on death.

 

Detonations, Perfect cross drops on dds. The only T8 bb in a T10 game. Spawn locations that deny you any team support! We all know the one, the "free CV Kill" every time they can't be bothered to ruin a dds day on the way over, that spawn. Matches where you have no AA in your team and a strike CV or simply a d/ced or useless one.

The situations where you simply can't play around the hand you have been dealt.

 

Are there other scenarios when this happens? Do you think some of the ones I've mentioned can be played around? I really want to discuss this because removing, reducing or otherwise mitigating those helpless matches would go a long way to giving me more enjoyment from the game. Being able to play more varied ships in both tier and power level for example.

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[BYOB]
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WG has shown no interest in removing situations in which the player has no chance to contribute. Detonations and bad MM are an example of this, the system created by WG is designed to frustrate you to the point where you buy premium, flags, ships, to get an edge.

They are not interested in the fact that such game design might cause older more mature players to leave the game for something more relaxing.

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T8 BB in a T10 MM i dont see that as a "problem" so to say. U still can dish out damage, even tho it might be harder for u to tank the damage, but u still can contribute. If we would compare that to a Detonation f.e., where the only thing u can avoid it is by using the flag (not avoidable when u dont have the flag tho)

 

Some other things could ofc be worked around by with teamwork. But for me a lot of things point that way that WG just doesnt care about Teamwork. Teamwork cant be forced, but when u give lots of ships the ability to help themselves against their biggest threats, then its really your own (aka WGs) fault that ppl dont even think about working together. Also ive been f***** so often because i wanted to help my teammates that its better to let them die. If u help them then they will use that as an opportunity to safe their own [edited]and they will let u jump over the cliff instead...

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26 minutes ago, Thracen said:

I really want to discuss this

 

There is nothing to discuss. You are right, end of story.

 

Seriously, dunno what to do about it. many things need adjustment from WG - f.e. stupid spawns for squishy Cruisers with 12+km concealment like Donskoi, where I dont have any other option but to turn around the first second in game or im catfood.

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I have had other matches where I (as a DD) was unable to get to the action fast enough because the enemy kept dying soo fast... does that count as well?

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32 minutes ago, stewie533 said:

I have had other matches where I (as a DD) was unable to get to the action fast enough because the enemy kept dying soo fast... does that count as well?

 

Yes. There are many instances where one side just folds so quickly the game barely registers for some players.

Had one today, 8 minutes in and we were done. I managed to do s0ome paltry damage and this was it for a daily win. Such games frustrate players too, as they aren't fun because just winning quickly means nothing.

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I really hate those weird spawns on some maps where you start all alone far away from your team where you spend good five or more minutes depending of the speed of the BB with which that happen to you (because those weird spawn points look like BB only spawns). And that's if your team doesn't decide to lemming train to the opposite side of the map so the enemy flank of your side catches up to you or the CV enemy finds you and farms a free kill.

 

WG should really look at the damn spawn points. It's a very easy to solve problem and one of the most annoying ones in that aspect.

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1 hour ago, Thracen said:

more enjoyment from the game.

Can´t believe that i am admitting this, but after two years of playing PvP only, i started PvE a few weeks ago. BBs pushing, destroyers capping, cruisers doing their duties... No camping. And mostly there are more cruisers than battleships, so the BB-flood is not a thing.

 

Not much communication between the players but also no salt whatsoever. I have yet to see someone calling a teammate nubb/retrd/poosy in PvE. No self-declared admirals pinging constantly and giving orders. Just pleasant.

 

The income is less but up to T5 it´s manageable.

 

So if you feel burned out game-wise (i did) take a vacation in Co-op-land and see if you find enjoyment there.

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6 minutes ago, drmajga said:

Can´t believe that i am admitting this, but after two years of playing PvP only, i started PvE a few weeks ago. BBs pushing, destroyers capping, cruisers doing their duties... No camping. And mostly there are more cruisers than battleships, so the BB-flood is not a thing.

 

Not much communication between the players but also no salt whatsoever. I have yet to see someone calling a teammate nubb/retrd/poosy in PvE. No self-declared admirals pinging constantly and giving orders. Just pleasant.

 

The income is less but up to T5 it´s manageable.

 

So if you feel burned out game-wise (i did) take a vacation in Co-op-land and see if you find enjoyment there.

 

If the bots played a bit smarter and less predictable I would be playing PvE constantly.

Because let's face it, many of the bots are better than some of the human players we meet.

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yup a lot of games where you are made useless. mostly by a certain spawn point i feel.

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I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing some of these issues. I really think a smart spawn system would be very helpful and some of the set spawn locations are very stupid, I too got blapped in a Donskoi spawning within detection range with no cover. It's these uncommon situations that really leave a big mark. The MM is always a big issue on the forums but I think there are some very simple tweeks everyone can get behind.

 

Match radar numbers ( I think a gap of 1 here is acceptable but any more than that and I just can't understand why they wouldn't balance the numbers. I know it might cause a problem for those 3 Belfasts in a division but lengthening their Q time and increasing the likelihood of them bumping into their counterparts would be a good thing)

Match rough AA values when CVs are in a match

 

I don't think there is anyone on the server that would find these changes unreasonable?

 

Good news is I think forcing all CVs to have a fighter in the US CV changes might help balance out the AA gap a little at least.

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2 minutes ago, Thracen said:

I too got blapped in a Donskoi spawning within detection range with no cover.

 

Sounds like the spawn on Hotspot. Basicly every time a Donskoi is in the MM its right in the center at B. Ive had 2 times a Donskoi on the enemy team when i got Missouri out. Both times while i didnt devastate him with one salvo i made ~40k damage. Basicly they did nothing wrong. They went ahead and turned to A or C... But when a DD gets close to B they are instantly detected. The only way to prevent that would be to go full revers back behind the islands. Also ive seen this when divisioning with a Donskoi, u cant turn broadside at that map and spawnpoint. Even for a BB its a bad place to spawn, but with CE build they can pretty much get a full broadside salvo against an unsuspecting Cruiser at ~15-16km.

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Supertester
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Yesterday, NC game, kraken, 80k dmg, 10 minutes. I was so frustrated i couldn't deal damage to justify my kraken (which i could of) if the teams weren't so one-sided. 

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15 hours ago, Thracen said:

This, this is the only aspect of the game I don't like, all the other issues in the game boil down to this for me. Matches where MM, spawns or some other mechanic beyond your control once you are loaded into a game just turn you into a useless target, worth nothing but the points you lose your team on death.

 

Detonations, Perfect cross drops on dds. The only T8 bb in a T10 game. Spawn locations that deny you any team support! We all know the one, the "free CV Kill" every time they can't be bothered to ruin a dds day on the way over, that spawn. Matches where you have no AA in your team and a strike CV or simply a d/ced or useless one.

The situations where you simply can't play around the hand you have been dealt.

 

Are there other scenarios when this happens? Do you think some of the ones I've mentioned can be played around? I really want to discuss this because removing, reducing or otherwise mitigating those helpless matches would go a long way to giving me more enjoyment from the game. Being able to play more varied ships in both tier and power level for example.

Scenarios were you are helpless are rare in the extreme.

Most boil down to player issues.

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there are matches where one side steamrolls the other, and from either side, you dont get to do much. if youre winning, the enemy team is so horribly bad, that they practically get cornered and evaporate under the heavy fire and you dont get to do much, if its the other way around, youll try to salvage some XP but still earn very little since its a defeat.

 

its very unfun, and it happens very often  

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

Most boil down to player issues.

Some don't and identifying the difference is the first step to helping people cope with ones that come down to "player skill" and ones that need adjusting. I wonder could you be more helpful than the equivalent of "git gud"?

 

Steam rolls on the other hand are a function of the exponential advantage of taking an early lead in ships, a pretty convincing and comprehensive study on WoT was done about these steam rolls and they are a function of a team game where you lose players, I don't think WoW is as bad as it' a slower paced game with less cover but I think this is a fact of life.

 

Dota even with MM ratings determining player skill and a respawn system that is less punishing of mistakes teams can and do get steam rolled. 

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Steamrolling is just math.

We had discussions about that in the past.

Each ship difference results in a quadratic difference in offensive capabilities as this is the product of firepower and combat time.

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

Steamrolling is just math.

We had discussions about that in the past.

Each ship difference results in a quadratic difference in offensive capabilities as this is the product of firepower and combat time.

 

do you mind reminding me?

 

that sounds very game breaking tbh

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15 minutes ago, Needy_Game said:

 

do you mind reminding me?

 

that sounds very game breaking tbh

It is an unavoidable effect of using a system where the players can't respawn after death/sinking.

Simply put: The team that loses a unit first can not output as much damage per time unit as the intact one thus as the game progresses the stronger team will always inflict more damage and the weaker team will deal progressively less and less damage.

The effect of this is that at some point the stronger team will deal damage while taking almost nothing in return thus the snowball effect will be observed.

 

The only thing that can stop it from happening is if the stronger team through poor decision making create situations where the enemy team will be far stronger locally or if the weaker team has some extraordinary players that can identify and destroy weaker opponents thus making it possible to gain the upper hand.

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15 minutes ago, G01ngToxicCommand0 said:

It is an unavoidable effect of using a system where the players can't respawn after death/sinking.

Simply put: The team that loses a unit first can not output as much damage per time unit as the intact one thus as the game progresses the stronger team will always inflict more damage and the weaker team will deal progressively less and less damage.

The effect of this is that at some point the stronger team will deal damage while taking almost nothing in return thus the snowball effect will be observed.

 

The only thing that can stop it from happening is if the stronger team through poor decision making create situations where the enemy team will be far stronger locally or if the weaker team has some extraordinary players that can identify and destroy weaker opponents thus making it possible to gain the upper hand.

 

that explains why this effect is most noticeable during the weekend or new patches, where the potatoes are most abundant 

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15 minutes ago, G01ngToxicCommand0 said:

The only thing that can stop it from happening is if the stronger team through poor decision making create situations where the enemy team will be far stronger locally or if the weaker team has some extraordinary players that can identify and destroy weaker opponents thus making it possible to gain the upper hand.

 

Tbh those factors come to play in wows all the time. We have islands & range f.e. If it were 12 vs 12 just standing in open waters with everyone is able to reach everyone all the time with a clear defined damage, it would all be matchematics. Added to that, we have torpedos, that are hot or miss, huge damage or nothing, explosions etcetc... Its not so easy to say, that the team who lost a ship first is at such a disadvantage, it cant recover cuz of mathematics. Would be nice to see statistics about this. I however doubt they are far away from 50-50 winchance.

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Based on WOT at least, the likelihood of a steamroller win increases with every difference in casualties between the sides (also depends a bit on which casualties).

i.e. a single tank (in WOT) differential isn't usually catastrophic, maybe not even two-three, but after that a steamroller becomes almost inevitable (*almost* - you get the occasional unicum that can turn hideous odds around, but that's unusual).

 

There are exceptions of course - if you have a competent platoon of three, they can have a disproportionate impact, just by working together; also, if all of the casualties on one side are bottom tier, the impact is less than if they were all top tier (but still significant - a T34-85 is no match for an IS3, say, but it still matters if it distracts the IS3, or blows its tracks off etc).

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I do think that better spawn locations and an increase in map geography would help reduce steam rolls, it'll allow smaller engagements and reduce long range support fire.

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