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Trainspite

List of views, problems, and other miscellany on the RN Battleships

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This post is claimed by me, for further details if I need to insert them. I probably will, I didn't detail the tier 7 replacement specifically.

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Weekend Tester
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TL:DR :

Make RN BBs less HE spam, less fantasy, and make higher tiers tankier at the expense of of less concealment and less HE.
Also, no ridiculous 419mm topkek balance Conqueror and KGV at it's rightful T8 spot.

Yes.
All the yes.


No, I don't think I've made myself clear, this is not a "I quite agree", it's a "ALL the yes"
All of them.
Neatly packaged.

Making RN BBs well armored, have good repair and reliable guns, despite not always being the best/biggest/most penetration/etc... as it should have been from the very start.
Dethroning the USN branch as the go-to default of what a BB should be at any given tier, with all others compared to that default ship for better or worse.

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Well written, I agree with you on most of your points. (can't really tell about some of the ships' specifics as I refuse to play these monstrosities)

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Despite my national fervour and almost crack addict level of addiction to my beloved Warspite I have yet to play the RN Battleships, partially due to the overall levels of BB in game(I've been playing more DD's lately like a good chap!) and partially due to not wanting to be spamming HE. I have however been on the receiving end of them all many times and these seem like fair assessments of what I've encountered, a good read and solid points methinks, if I had a hat on it'd be hats off to you sir. 

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I don't feel experienced/qualified enough to seriously comment on your points, but I'd still like to commend on your well-written work. I'll follow the discussion with interest.

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[DUXTR]
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Balancing a line around HE is wrong.

And it has migrated over to other BB lines too.

BBs in so many games just fires HE now.

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  • Tier III weaker than Nassau
  • Tier IV strongest silver BB
  • Tier V similar to König, ID has less WR, but slightly more damage
  • Tier VI very similar to Bayern and NewMex
  • Tier VII strongest silver BB
  • Tier VIII strongest silver BB, but not by much
  • Tier IX by far the strongest silver BB
  • Tier X strongest silver BB, but not by much

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20171104/eu_week/average_ship.html

 

One could argue that the stats from Tier VIII are still influenced by a difference in player quality (more experienced players than weak players).

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[DREAD]
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@Trainspite thank you fot this very detailed analysis of the RN BB Line. I can say I fully agree with your observations. I think "toxic" is indeed the best word to describe their gameplay through the line, OP or not. I also fully agree that again, WG did their fantasy stuff which just sucks and nobody wants (looks like they continue with that on the French BBs as well). 

 

I do like that they toned down the refits on Orion (yes she is stupidly OP) and Iron Dude (more or less balanced).

 

And I 100% agree with your proposal to "normalize" the line's game play and do away with the gimmicky stuff they made up for the line. While you describe very well what could be done (normal fuze for the AP, normal concealment, etc.) I think a toned down fire chance would help as well.

 

To be fair - these ships can hold their own against any opposition without gimmicks. The cartoonish HE-spam-"flavour" was the worst WG could do to the ships and doesn't do this respectable line justice. 

 

I hope @Sub_Octavian reads this thread as your analysis is well written and an excellent basis for further discussion to make this line a good one 

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I agree with almost all of your statements, but I would add that it is not only the 1/4 pen on the HE that is the problem. It is the combination of that plus high base damage plus high fire chance.

 

So I would add reducing the fire chance to just a little better that the IJN as they have the next best HE and maybe reduce the HE alpha a bit maybe by 1k along with the removal of the 1/4 rule.

 

I would probably keep the good concealment but make sure that it is no better than any heavy cruisers (Hindenburg), and make the flavor more Rudder based, though it looks like this might be an Italian trait possibly.

 

Conclusion; RN BBs are a pain to play against with the HE spam and Dull to play as you can ignore target selection and just keep spamming HE and still get good damage numbers.

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I have a feeling, that there are cross-tier-problems in balancing, that need to be adressed before all this. Ill show with a table.

 

  Range Speed
König Albert 11,9 21 kn
Bellerophon 15,0 22,5 kn
Orion 16,7 22 kn

 

So, the often so-called massivly OP König Albert has Zero chance against those 2. Trust me, I know what im speaking of, from both sides. This is not exclusivly to the RN ships, but also applys to many recent additions - like the french cruiser line. It cant continue like this, T III / T IV interaction is broken, this also touches AA. Many ships have 0 AA, but can be paired with a CV and only 2 or 3 other T4 ships.

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2 hours ago, Trainspite said:

QE is probably the worst ship tier for tier in the line. She is not terrible per se, but aside from her very good AA power for tier 6, there is no reason to play her if you have a Warspite, unless you like the ship personally, or are an HE spamming spud taking advantage of the ¼ HE.

 

Hands off QE, she's perfectly balanced in every way. I'd take her over Barnspite everyday of the week (no RN captain with manual secondaries :Smile_sad:)

 

2 hours ago, Trainspite said:

Of note is also that a late war condition QE is a possible C-hull. Giving up the catapult for 16 more dual Oerlikons. Worth it? Probably not, the increase in short range AA is not that good a trade. But it is something to mention as a possibility for those who are frequently abused by carriers and have PTSD of it.

 

Premium 1944 HMS Valiant hype!

 

2 hours ago, Trainspite said:

However, I will express disappointment that there is no 1930s condition Queen Elizabeth.

 

Premium 1941 HMS Barham hype!

 

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Great work :cap_like:, unfurtunately i think the ppl who should care about stuff like that are gonna be like

tumblr_mbwqq1ZpcF1ro3rn6.gif

 

Personaly the ship which i can relate to the most (Orion) id say something like that:

If u nerf the range, i wouldnt care. I dont really fight at maxrange, and with orion i go closer than 14km easily. So personaly i wouldnt see it as a nerf. HE damage should be nerfed into the ground imo. Thats the worst part of the Orion.

 

Playing against the other ships i think

Iron duke seems fine (why not, its like an Orion but with worse MM), but Iron Duke in T4 MM is pretty strong.

QE shooting against it seems very squishy, 20k volleys from Nagato f.e.

KGV pain in the [edited], T8 seems to be a good option for him.

Monarch, well, maybe i was unlucky, but he tends to [edited]Cruisers pretty good.

Lion and Conqueror, i dont care what they do with them, but some things gotta go. Its just overwelming, insane concealment, Crazy heal, lottery citadel (yes can be hit but seems as unlikely as german BBs), too powerful HE/Alpha.

 

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Oh one thing when talking about rebalancing RN BBs - Remove the Zombie-Heal ! totaly redicolous!

 

3 hours ago, Trainspite said:

and I would possibly give Monarch the super heal.

 

what ??? Im not sure if People that agree with you, did really read your stuff.

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15 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Monarch, well, maybe i was unlucky, but he tends to [edited]Cruisers pretty good.

Monach shits on every other T8 BB 1:1 due to the 1/4 pen rule without drawbacks.thats on top of her creap on cruisers and delete them from stealth with little reaction time for them...

Bismark vs Monach:

mon.thumb.jpg.fbcef399282859c57e82624dd95dc6c0.jpg

The only thing he could have done would be turn tail and hide 1:1

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14 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Oh one thing when talking about rebalancing RN BBs - Remove the Zombie-Heal ! totaly redicolous!

 

 

what ??? Im not sure if People that agree with you, did really read your stuff.

Ordinarily I'd be on your side with this one, but Op advocates removing pretty much every other ridiculously overbuffed gimmick of these lines, most importantly the HE pen. If they lose the HE pen and are balanced like every other BB in the game instead of a vacuum, having the super heal is at least acceptable thematically with the cruiser line, which does get the super heal at t8, unlike the Mon(arch)strosity.

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8 minutes ago, FishDogFoodShack said:

If they lose the HE pen and are balanced like every other BB in the game instead of a vacuum, having the super heal is at least acceptable thematically with the cruiser line, which does get the super heal at t8, unlike the Mon(arch)strosity.

 

The reason why the Neptune and Mino need the superheal is because they have elevated citadels. If a BB hits them broadside they will usually hit atleast 1 citadel, ofc smoke doesnt shield them from being citadelled, so i say they desperately need that heal to function.

If u give lion/conqueror an elevated citadel then they can have the superheal...

 

RN CLs are high risk high reward ships. If u cant play them u suck.

RN BBs are the opposite. No matter how much of a bad player u are, u can still pull 100k damage easily.

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Didn't read your entire post OP. But I disagree. The RN BB line is fine as far as I'm concerned.Take Conqueror. Finally I have another T10 BB functioning. Other 1 is Kurry. I don't want Conqueror to be nurtured to a useless twit because Faimu has posted 1 "1 out of a million luck situations" whine post on YT. Where the Montana DID misplay by keeping himself spotted the entire time. Bringing down a Conqueror is easy: just focus fire and teamwork. Heck I'm already getting into trouble with a smoke pewpewing DD with it. And I know: teamwork is a taboo on Random games. But why should I be punished by that? Either learn to do teamwork or keep suffering the consequences. FFS I had a match tonight. A Montana immediately DCP'd 1 fire. Yeah, thanks. I'll keep HE spamming you until you got 3 or 4. He didn't wiggle, he didn't change speed but kept going on happily. Can I punish that please? I would have done the same in any other ship. And the same goes for Lion. Also fire dmg is fully healable. I totally agree with the fire buff on cruisers and DD's. It forces Conqueror (and other RN BB's) to switch to AP when facing cruisers. And oh boy: is that sweet! Oneshot a very healthy Donskoy today with AP. He kept sailing broadside on close range, while I was detected. I could almost hear him thinking "oh, he'll probably going to shoot HE, so why bother?" Again: can I please punish that? He's in a T9 ship for crying out loud. Even if I'd had been spamming HE: in a slim profile he'd had much less chance of being hit. No, he sailed on happily broadside (I was the only BB threat in that situation for him).

 

tl;dr: stop with the whining. The line is fine and each RN BB can be taken down easily with teamwork. as long as that doesn't exist: let me be on my marry way. Stop whining and asking for nerfs for people who can't play this game. I'll have to draw the LTP card on this one.

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2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

     
     
     
     

 

So, the often so-called massivly OP König Albert has Zero chance against those 2.

This comes down to positioning.

If you sail in the open, you might be at a disadvantage, but a smart player knows how to counter them. Most Albert captains seem to do quite well at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Ferry_25 said:

 

tl;dr: stop with the whining. The line is fine and each RN BB can be taken down easily with teamwork. as long as that doesn't exist: let me be on my marry way. Stop whining and asking for nerfs for people who can't play this game. I'll have to draw the LTP card on this one.

 

> Uses free XP to powergrind the RN BB branch, massively outperforms his other tierX BBs with his Conqueror, calls it fine and that people need to L2P

Legit.

 

Tell me though, how does it feel to be outdamaging a Yamato using a KGV?
Hold on, I'm sorry "fire damage is repairable"

You know, granted you don't set twice more fires than your target could possibly hope to extinguish and repair, even with good DCP and repair discipline.

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1 hour ago, Ferry_25 said:

And I know: teamwork is a taboo on Random games.

The line is fine and each RN BB can be taken down easily with teamwork.

 

Ehm, do i need to write more? :cap_hmm:

Only a stupid Conqueror can be killed 1v1 by another BB. Yes i did it (with Bismarck), doesnt mean its fine.

Btw i wouldnt mind that Orion is getting nerfed, but i play it myself, how do u explain that? :cap_hmm:

 

25 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

This comes down to positioning.

If you sail in the open, you might be at a disadvantage, but a smart player knows how to counter them. Most Albert captains seem to do quite well at the moment.

 

blabla teamgame blabla always teams fault... why cant u acknowledge that the balance is off? Every new line needs more gimmicks more everything that everyone goes like this:

giphy.gif

Shitting money into WGs mouth. Thats the only reason why every new thing needs to be more OP than the old one, so all the stupid newbs gonna throw their wallet at the screen to be awesome (in their own little mind because they made DAMAGE!!111). Also make the midtier silvers as crappy as possible, so the Premium Midtiers can crap over them. Another thing it does that u just gonna use money to avoid the painful grind of the "bad" tiers so u can be awesome too at T10:cap_like:

The problem is not only with K.A. as it is pretty powerful anyway. How about to bring other ships back in line with the new ones? Whats the point of favoring lets say the Karlsruhe over a Duguay? Karlruhe was crap when i started the game >1 year ago. Now its even more crap with RN BBs and French Cruisers in the game.

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53 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

This comes down to positioning.

If you sail in the open, you might be at a disadvantage, but a smart player knows how to counter them. Most Albert captains seem to do quite well at the moment.

"Must contradict ForlornSailor cuz have personal vendetta due to many earlier encounters in forum". Now. any other reason that you want to disagree, that there is a problem when a new T3 BB has a range of 15km while most others have 10,9 - 11,9? Why did South Carolina range get buffed to 15,7 km from 11,2? It was inline with other T3 BBs before? Then came the RN BBs. And when a rangedifference of nearly 30% isnt a problem and comes down to positioning, then where draw the line? When 10,9 vs 15 or 16,7 is ok, is 5 vs 16 ok? All a matter of position right?

 

Also, very important: Its lowtier. there are NEW PLAYERS. They are suppose to LEARN the game. They WILL sail in the open - you did too when u started playing and were a newb. Now there are experianced players having also a range advantage of up to 30% - how do you feel when he sh!ts all over you and there is nothing you can do about it. Zero. Just watch your ship go down slowly.

 

And fyi - I am a König Albert Captain. And an Orion Captain. What new do you want to tell me now?

 

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You were talking in absolutes ("zero chance"). That is just very dangerous.

Albert does pretty well even with all the Bellerophons and Orions around. She cannot be that bad.

And Albert is not a ship for new players.

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3 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And Albert is not a ship for new players.

 

Thats interesting, where do you have that information from? Last time I checked, I could buy the König Albert with ... 0 games played. So how is it not a ship for new players? But you know what, make it more easy. Replace it by:

Kawachi - 10,9 km range - oh, look, even worse!

Nassau - 11,9 km

Any T3 cruiser - 10,8....12,9 - and 12,9 is the Friant, which i counted also as recently introduced and has for some reason a longer range then the other T3 cruisers.

 

Ive totaly crippled Bogatyrs, Nassaus, Kawachichs and so forth with Orion on 13-15 km. They were dead in the water, burning, that little AA they had taken away and had NO way to fight me. Waiting for the final shot of the CV that I called in to feast on the easy prey. I actually felt sorry for them - and you talk about... positiong?? Are you telling me, this isnt happening? Am I dreaming or what....

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[YARRR]
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I like QE tbh, literally the only thing wrong with her is her godawful turret traverse. No idea why everyone calls her weak.

Then again I never played Warspite and I also dislike KGV, so maybe it's just me.

 

3 hours ago, Ferry_25 said:

Bringing down a Conqueror is easy: just focus fire and teamwork.

 

Yet if someone writes "Being safe from CV strikes is easy, just use teamwork and stick together." that doesn't seem to be a valid argument in your eyes. :cap_hmm:

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