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Kuro1047

Hipper and Eugen DPM problem

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Players
15 posts
4,971 battles

Hello

I usually don't post on the forums, however there is something I would like to tell the dev. team about.

Recently you said that there are no plans on buffing Hipper or Eugen.

It has been said that in your opinion they perform just right. Now i looked at their stats and immediatly noticed that both ships are underperforming in almost any way.

The recent changes didn't help solving the issues the german T8 CA's have, which is terrible DPM.

So my question is, can you look at these ships a bit more and make them at least competative to all the other T8 cruisers?

They really need a bit love.

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Beta Tester, In AlfaTesters
120 posts
4,715 battles
On 11/6/2017 at 5:06 PM, Tuccy said:

Hipper and Eugen are NOT DPM ships. Their damage structure also shows that - the DPM ships usually farm damage on battleships using the HE (so repairable damage),  hence the damage dealt advantage may not translate into battle winning advantage (as citadeling a cruiser or two may be worth more than ten salvos against battleship ;)). Unless you are really high performing player. This is why damage is not really good way how to compare ships unless you look into details. Win rate in general shows the ship's influence on battle the best and Hipper and Prinz Eugen - and why, when we plot them against owner's average WR, they are performing basically the same as, say, Kutuzov in the band where you have 90+% of players. You have ships that may have even worse performance here, only to o wild in the "high performing" bracket, you have ships that have better performance here and drop off at high performing bracket, you have ships that excel at low performing bracket... All in all the German Tier VIII cruisers seem to be "reliable, but not exciting" and with pretty comfortable performance level, though lower performance ceiling for extreme cases... And that is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

Also note that 190k damage is way past average - it is kinda like complaining that you won just second prize in a lottery and not the 1st ;) 

 

 

Then why Eugen got THE worst winrate of all non-cv premium ships in the game , combined with THE worst average damage of all tier 8 cruisers, by far the worst  k/d ratio for all tier 8 ships, THE worst average expirrience of all tier 8 ships (together with Hipper) exept Ognevoi .
Source: https://wows-numbers.com/ships/
 

IDK who nuked Eugen harder - US after WW2 ending or WoWs balancing team :cap_hmm:

 

So , based upon which underperforming stat, buffs to the ships are delivered then ? Tirpitz , Scharnhorst seccondarry range increase , Indianapolis radar range increase. And the newest ,,pearl'' -  Khabarovsk range module option on 9.14 PTS. Destroyer that is on top of every single statistical category , compared to other tier X dd's really needed a buff .... (EDIT.: ,,It was a PTS bug''  - Flamu) And if low winrate isnt a factor - why then New Orleans getting moved into tier 7  - ship that sits on the bottom of all tier 8 cruisers, stat wise  , just above Eugen and below Hipper(if not counting on new US cruiser branch)

Both Eugen and Hipper underperforms ,,reliably'' and are ,,not exciting'' to play. The difference is that Hipper is just a bump towards highly valuable Hindenburg and is the most played tier 8 cruiser for that reason, wheres Eugen is the least played tier 8 cruiser , not counting not long ago introduced Charles Martel.  Alot of CC's pointed weaknesses of these ships long time ago and declared ideas of possible buffs , that would make these ships comfortable to play , but not overperforming .

Tier 9 module slot - reload/range/aa/torpedo reload module options. Thats my own suggestion. Its not that hard to drop that into the next patch testing, give it to players ,see how ship performs on wide audience and decide to add that option or not. IMHO that would make these ships exciting, because player would have the chance to turn them into really fearsome AA platform, either Moskva type long range sniper , either a brawler with comfortable, yet not over-the border main battery reload.  

 

 Feedback delivered. @Tuccy

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Beta Tester, In AlfaTesters
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Got Eugen, after many many tries managed to squeeze 190k damage game .... Thats it. Dpm is so low , that its not even funny when any he spamming cruiser can demolish you if he angles to negate your AP threat. You cannot run away, you have no heal to get back all the damage he can inflict with fires onto your absolutely massive ,,forehead", you have no radar , no concealment and 13 sec reload on 4x2 guns..... 27mm bow is nice, but only against 381 >  mm AP.  Well,because you have massive forehead and youre not very fast they can just ignore your bow and just blaze you even without IFHE and most bb's youre facing have over 400mm guns, so your only strenght  is negated once more. Its just a sad ship. Get reload down to 10 or  seconds - then we can talk 

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Players
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I have played both Hipper and Eugen for a fair amount of time, I even got some great games in them.

However overall the ship just feels incredible lackluster compared to an atago, which does not only have a heal, but it also comes with quite a lot of other nice features.

Meanwhile the only thing that makes the Hipper/Eugen somewhat unique is its 27 mm bow and free IFHE.

Simply not enough to make the ships worth it.

Giving them a heal or slightly faster reloading guns would certainly help a lot.

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The problem that Hipper and Eugen have is that they are just undergunned at their tier. Only eight barrels with long reload is simply not enough to compete.

As much as I would like to use lots of AP as my main ammunition type on Hipper/Eugen, they lack reliability. Yes their per shell damage is great but as long as you cant penetrate your opponents armor reliably, this effect becomes negligible. So people are forced to use the bad HE shells on top of being outgunned by every other T8 cruiser.

That would be acceptable if the ships made up for it in another aspect, but they dont, not in survivability and not in versatility.

 

And yes, 190k damage is way past average but I could have done this in any other T8 cruiser as well but with much less effort.

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[WG-EU]
WG Staff, Community, Alpha Tester
3,389 posts
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Hipper and Eugen are NOT DPM ships. Their damage structure also shows that - the DPM ships usually farm damage on battleships using the HE (so repairable damage),  hence the damage dealt advantage may not translate into battle winning advantage (as citadeling a cruiser or two may be worth more than ten salvos against battleship ;)). Unless you are really high performing player. This is why damage is not really good way how to compare ships unless you look into details. Win rate in general shows the ship's influence on battle the best and Hipper and Prinz Eugen - and why, when we plot them against owner's average WR, they are performing basically the same as, say, Kutuzov in the band where you have 90+% of players. You have ships that may have even worse performance here, only to o wild in the "high performing" bracket, you have ships that have better performance here and drop off at high performing bracket, you have ships that excel at low performing bracket... All in all the German Tier VIII cruisers seem to be "reliable, but not exciting" and with pretty comfortable performance level, though lower performance ceiling for extreme cases... And that is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

Also note that 190k damage is way past average - it is kinda like complaining that you won just second prize in a lottery and not the 1st ;) 

 

 

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