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Affeks

Kii: buff torpedoes to a usable state

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Ive got 17 games in Kii to this moment and in my experience I find it to be underperforming, Ive got my arguments but Ill leave that for another day.

 

On Kii we can see that it mounts the Type 93 mod. 0.... except that it absolutely does not. The torpedoes on Kii has nothing in common with the Type 93 mod. 0 found on DDs like Akizuki. I'm sure some of you have noticed, but it seems Kii's torpedoes have everything in common with the Type 8 torpedoes found on Yubari... Yes you heard that right, tier 4 torpedoes on a tier 8 battleship.... And while YES I agree that BBs shouldnt have as strong torpedoes as DDs have, they should at least be in line with BB torpedoes of the same tier. What we have to compare at tier 8 is ofc Tirpitz.

 

  Kii "type93 mod.0" Differance Tirpitz G7a T1
Torpedoes 2x3 1 2x4
Reload 90 seconds 0 90 seconds
180 degree turn 7,2 seconds 0 7,2 seconds
Damage 14 600 900 13 700
Range 6 km 0 6 km
Torpedo Concealment 1.6 km 0.3 1.3 km
Torpedo Speed 63 knots 1 64 knots

 

I dont have the exact numbers, but Tirpitz also has a much better forward firing arcs on its torps.

 

All this accumulates in torpedoes that are not very rewarding for aggresive play on a ship that is much worse suited for brawling compared to Tirpitz. Worse turret traverse, armor layout, weaker citadel, worse accuracy, worse turret traverse, worse agility etc etc etc.

 

Also due to the limited range on these torps they are not very usefull for their intended use in kiting. 

 

Kii is weak enough that a buff to torpedoes wouldnt tip it over to anything close to OP territory. 

 

Personally I would like to suggest Shinonome's torps. They have the exact same stats as Kii's, but have 2 km better range. The extra range, but still otherwise relatively weak torpedoes would mean you at least have a worthwhile trade off compared to Tirpitz. It would also mean that a skilled player will know when to turn around when brawling a Tirpitz, as you have more range, but Tirpitz has more and faster torps that are more difficult to detect.

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I disagree. Now I don't have Kii but on Tirpitz it's more a gimmick as well and by far it's main weapon. Only very usefull in close BB combat situations. And that doesn't happen that often. Also the torpedo tubes are made from soaked toilet paper. Any ship looking funny at Tirpitz will destroy the tubes.

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23 minutes ago, Ferry_25 said:

I disagree. Now I don't have Kii but on Tirpitz it's more a gimmick as well and by far it's main weapon. Only very usefull in close BB combat situations. And that doesn't happen that often. Also the torpedo tubes are made from soaked toilet paper. Any ship looking funny at Tirpitz will destroy the tubes.

THe thing is that the rest of Kii as a ship falls short of Tirpitz in too many ways. I even found the guns to underperform even compared to Tirpitz. 

 

I mean if the torps are situational in Tirpitz, then imagine how situational they are in Kii, a much less agile and armored ship with non existent secondaries.

 

Also the Torps on Tirpitz arent really that weak, they mostly explode all the time since they are placed amidships, meaning that they are hit very often compared to on Kii which has them on the aft. Now dont misunderstand, having the torps on the aft is a giant liability in itself. Enemies have much longer time to react and you basically have to account for half the length of the ship when torpedoing fore.

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Tbh I would trade the torps on my Tirpitz for hydro any day of the week. The game is currently at a HE-spam-fest that always results in my torp launchers being blown up as soon as I am spotted. The moments when I could have torped the enemy are lots and lots. So then why didn't I? There was nothing left to torp them with!

I have the same issue in my Scharnhorst, had the same in the Gneis (an back then there were no RN BBs, mind you). I seriously doubt that such change would make a difference on Kii as well...

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4 minutes ago, almitov said:

Tbh I would trade the torps on my Tirpitz for hydro any day of the week. The game is currently at a HE-spam-fest that always results in my torp launchers being blown up as soon as I am spotted. The moments when I could have torped the enemy are lots and lots. So then why didn't I? There was nothing left to torp them with!

I have the same issue in my Scharnhorst, had the same in the Gneis (an back then there were no RN BBs, mind you). I seriously doubt that such change would make a difference on Kii as well...

I agree, another reason why Amagi is much better than Kii, trading tons of gun performance and survivability for AA and Torps that only get knocked out is not good at all. Another reason to either buff the torps or some other part of the ship.

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Guns on the Kii are almost exactly the same as on the Amagi (slightly worse accuracy and 500m less range, that's all the difference), but that's besides the point.

 

Kii is not a torpedo boat, those torpedoes are self defense in brown alert situations, and they do exactly that perfectly fine.

 

And i you want to know what's the tradeoff -> you trade Amagis torp protection, trollish armour and secondaries for Kiis raw armour thickness (which simply doesn't work on any ship), AA and torpedoes (and the elevated front of citadel).

Also you loose good part of the Amagis beautiful looks, but as far as torp hits are concerned Kii is thinner as she doesn't have those bulges on her sides

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4 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Guns on the Kii are almost exactly the same as on the Amagi (slightly worse accuracy and 500m less range, that's all the difference), but that's besides the point.

 

Kii is not a torpedo boat, those torpedoes are self defense in brown alert situations, and they do exactly that perfectly fine.

 

And i you want to know what's the tradeoff -> you trade Amagis torp protection, trollish armour and secondaries for Kiis raw armour thickness (which simply doesn't work on any ship), AA and torpedoes (and the elevated front of citadel).

Also you loose good part of the Amagis beautiful looks, but as far as torp hits are concerned Kii is thinner as she doesn't have those bulges on her sides

You forget that the guns have worse reload, worse traverse AND worse turret armor. That combined with .1 less sigma and reduced range really adds up. The guns are just that much worse, and its not like Amagi had good guns to begin with.

 

Kii is just soooo much worse than Amagi cause unlike ships like Tirpitz you really have no worthwhile trade offs. I mean as you say that raw belt thickness does little to nothing and the lack of torpedo bulges protecting the lower part of the side plating are gone... so despite the higher health pool, in practice you are a much bigger target (as you are higher in the water) and you have much worse protection against HE spam.

 

Those torps arent even good in self defense as they are spotted from the moon and are easily telegrafed due to badish arcs and being all the way at the back of the ship. And even when they hit you only have 3 at most.

 

One of the biggest reasons I want a buff to spesifically the torps is because it would still be situational, but at least it would reward risky play more. On top of that Japan is supposed to be the Torpedo nation, yet they have worse torps compared to Tirpitz in almost every single way.

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2 minutes ago, Affeks said:

You forget that the guns have worse reload, worse traverse AND worse turret armor. That combined with .1 less sigma and reduced range really adds up. The guns are just that much worse, and its not like Amagi had good guns to begin with.

 

Kii is just soooo much worse than Amagi cause unlike ships like Tirpitz you really have no worthwhile trade offs. I mean as you say that raw belt thickness does little to nothing and the lack of torpedo bulges protecting the lower part of the side plating are gone... so despite the higher health pool, in practice you are a much bigger target (as you are higher in the water) and you have much worse protection against HE spam.

 

Those torps arent even good in self defense as they are spotted from the moon and are easily telegrafed due to badish arcs and being all the way at the back of the ship. And even when they hit you only have 3 at most.

 

One of the biggest reasons I want a buff to spesifically the torps is because it would still be situational, but at least it would reward risky play more. On top of that Japan is supposed to be the Torpedo nation, yet they have worse torps compared to Tirpitz in almost every single way.

 

1 second extra, changes literally nothing. Haven't noticed any traverse problems so I'll just assume it's minimal.

Turret armour might be weaker, but it's good enough. It's still not a RN BB which loses 1...4 turrets per game

 

You should learn how that "sigma" works. Point 1 change is so small you could just go ahead and ignore it. Yeah, you'll land like a handful of shells less on the center compared to each other. So what, she's still as good as Amagi at hitting the target. You have exactly the same amo, damage, penetration and so on. Those are the same guns with their soft stats nudged a bit so it's not just a 1:1 copy.

And Amagis guns are amazing, probably the best of the whole tier. They work great at any range, the hit a lot and consistently. Penetration is great, but it's not so much that it would just cut clean through cruisers. And seeing how terrible Monarch is I'd say Amagi still has the best HE of tier 8.

 

 

I told you of the tradeoffs. You sacrifice troll armour for straight up armour and health(as you mentioned yourself). You sacrifice secondaries to get AA. You sacrifice torp protection but get torps yourself.

And a premium ship isn't supposed to be better than line ships, it should be slightly worse or at least as an alternative not just a premium copy of what we have (like Hipper and Eugen).

Tirpitz sacrifices the hydro to get torps, and I'd pick hydro over torps any day.

 

You are about the same size target, and actually weaker to AP while being better against HE. More armour = less HE penetrations. Also less superstructure.

Armour doesn't exactly work on any ship (at least at higher tiers) because ships are fighting in lower ranges than they were designed to. You still can angle the Kii to enjoy the sound of all the incoming bounces. Give flat side and you are weaker.

 

Torps are good enough. They are not your main armament, they are your last chance bonus so to say. If the enemy knows you have them their launch will be obvious anyway. If they don't know - you'll hit them anyway because they won't be expecting them.

 

Yeah, and IJN DDs are supposed to be the torpedo DDs yet pretty much everyone who has torps (including cruisers) is better at being a torpedo boat than IJN DDs. They are already situational, and they are good at that. We don't need idiots rushing the enemy ship to get a torpedo hit because "muh ship guut torpeda!"

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20 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

1 second extra, changes literally nothing. Haven't noticed any traverse problems so I'll just assume it's minimal.

Turret armour might be weaker, but it's good enough. It's still not a RN BB which loses 1...4 turrets per game

 

You should learn how that "sigma" works. Point 1 change is so small you could just go ahead and ignore it. Yeah, you'll land like a handful of shells less on the center compared to each other. So what, she's still as good as Amagi at hitting the target. You have exactly the same amo, damage, penetration and so on. Those are the same guns with their soft stats nudged a bit so it's not just a 1:1 copy.

And Amagis guns are amazing, probably the best of the whole tier. They work great at any range, the hit a lot and consistently. Penetration is great, but it's not so much that it would just cut clean through cruisers. And seeing how terrible Monarch is I'd say Amagi still has the best HE of tier 8.

 

 

I told you of the tradeoffs. You sacrifice troll armour for straight up armour and health(as you mentioned yourself). You sacrifice secondaries to get AA. You sacrifice torp protection but get torps yourself.

And a premium ship isn't supposed to be better than line ships, it should be slightly worse or at least as an alternative not just a premium copy of what we have (like Hipper and Eugen).

Tirpitz sacrifices the hydro to get torps, and I'd pick hydro over torps any day.

 

You are about the same size target, and actually weaker to AP while being better against HE. More armour = less HE penetrations. Also less superstructure.

Armour doesn't exactly work on any ship (at least at higher tiers) because ships are fighting in lower ranges than they were designed to. You still can angle the Kii to enjoy the sound of all the incoming bounces. Give flat side and you are weaker.

 

Torps are good enough. They are not your main armament, they are your last chance bonus so to say. If the enemy knows you have them their launch will be obvious anyway. If they don't know - you'll hit them anyway because they won't be expecting them.

 

Yeah, and IJN DDs are supposed to be the torpedo DDs yet pretty much everyone who has torps (including cruisers) is better at being a torpedo boat than IJN DDs. They are already situational, and they are good at that. We don't need idiots rushing the enemy ship to get a torpedo hit because "muh ship guut torpeda!"

So basically you agree with me that currently you shouldnt even consider that you have torps on Kii as they are not the main armament, which basically forces you to play Kii as you would play Amagi... Yet Amagi is better at the mid range in every conceivable way compared to Kii... I mean sure all those little things dont seem big themselves, but they really add up in the end and proves that Kii really doesnt do Amagis job nearly as good. On the other hand I find Amagi itself to be really bad at mid range as well. Alabama/NC does that job much better and with a smaller ship, better armor layout and better agility to boot. Amagi/Kiis terrible vertical dispersion really doesnt make for good guns. You say that Amagi probably has the best guns at the tier and I must say: YOU HAVENT EVEN PLAYED NC/ALABAMA. Try those ships, get used to the slow shells and see just how insanely bad Amagi/Kiis guns really are.

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4 minutes ago, Affeks said:

So basically you agree with me that currently you shouldnt even consider that you have torps on Kii as they are not the main armament, which basically forces you to play Kii as you would play Amagi... Yet Amagi is better at the mid range in every conceivable way compared to Kii... I mean sure all those little things that are worse with Kii really add up in the end and proves that Kii really doesnt do Amagis job nearly as good. On the other hand I find Amagi itself to be really bad at mid range as well. Alabama/NC does that job much better and with a small ship, better armor layout and better agility to boot. Amagi/Kiis terrible vertical dispersion really doesnt make for good guns. You say that Amagi probably has the best guns at the tier and I must say: YOU HAVENT EVEN PLAYED NC/ALABAMA. Try those ships, get used to the slow shells and see just how insanely bad Amagi/Kiis guns really are.

 

Yes, they are not supposed to be used all the time, you're not a god damn torpedo boat. If that's what you want to do in your Kii / Tirpitz / Scharnhorst - RNGesus pls don't ever put this one in my team.

Yes, the Kii is a reworked Amagi, the basics are all the same. Long range = you get citadelled, mid range you can kite and dominate more or less everyone, close range you simply dominate.

All those little things are so insignificant you can just ignore them. Literally the only thing that Kii has sereously worse than Amagi is that elevated section of citadel under your 1st and 2nd turret, that's about it. It does the job as good as the Amagi would, just generally doesn't live as long.

And if you think Amagi is bad at midrange, you probably are simply playing her wrong. And there is a reason why the Amagi is referred to as a sniper, not other BBs. If you play all BBs with single tactics for all of them - you will fail, and fail hard at it.

I've played NC on other accounts, Amagi is still better. And going by your reasoning Alabama should be called "way worse than NC" :Smile_trollface:

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35 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

I've played NC on other accounts, Amagi is still better. And going by your reasoning Alabama should be called "way worse than NC" :Smile_trollface:

...

Okay so you just admitted you dont read my posts.

 

The whole point is that the sum of the trade offs between Kii and Amagi arent worth it.

 

On the other hand Alabama vs NC trade offs are worth it

 

NC has better Health and accuracy, while Alabama has better turning circle and torpedo protection. All while keeping the roughly same armor layout.

 

These trade offs are about similar in value while Amagi and Kii certainly are not even close in value.

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4 minutes ago, Affeks said:

...

Okay so you just admitted you dont read my posts.

 

The whole point is that the sum of the trade offs between Kii and Amagi arent worth it.

 

On the other hand Alabama vs NC trade offs are worth it

 

NC has better Health and accuracy, while Alabama has better turning circle and torpedo protection. All while keeping the roughly same armor layout.

 

These trade offs are about similar in value while Amagi and Kii certainly are not even close in value.

 

But that .1 sigma!!! So much nerf, can't hit anything anymore! You said it yourself :Smile_trollface:

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Just now, wilkatis_LV said:

 

But that .1 sigma!!! So much nerf, can't hit anything anymore! You said it yourself :Smile_trollface:

Youre not listening at all. Giving up sigma for the ability to actively dodge incoming volleys and be almost immune to torps is a valid trade off.... God youre not even trying any more

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Tirpitz is a close combat ship Kii is a mid range ship why buff something you hardly ever use? if i want a buff on Kii mits wither 0,1 better sigma or he firing secondarys so you can actally build it for close combat ( not that her armor works at that range)

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12 minutes ago, Affeks said:

Youre not listening at all. Giving up sigma for the ability to actively dodge incoming volleys and be almost immune to torps is a valid trade off.... God youre not even trying any more

 

But you said that with .1 less sigma you can't hit anyhing anymore! Ok, you can dodge, but bye bye hitrate #0%hitsohno

 

So is the .1 sigma bad then or can you ignore it/ Works the same in both cases

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2 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

Tirpitz is a close combat ship Kii is a mid range ship why buff something you hardly ever use? if i want a buff on Kii mits wither 0,1 better sigma or he firing secondarys so you can actally build it for close combat ( not that her armor works at that range)

I want Torps to be buffed as torps is kinda the national flavor of Kii, and currently tier 4 torps on tier 8 is kinda dumb. Also the torps are kinda one of the big trade offs with this ship yet they are close to useless. Increasing range will see their use increase exponentionally in BBs.

 

3 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

But you said that with .1 less sigma you can't hit anyhing anymore! Ok, you can dodge, but bye bye hitrate #0%hitsohno

 

So is the .1 sigma bad then or can you ignore it/ Works the same in both cases

Yes sure the decrease in accuracy is a terrible thing, but its worth it for the insanely much better turning circle and torpedo belt.

 

Meanwhile Kii trades that .1 sigma for.. oh wait it trades it for even further nerfs to RoF, Range, traverse, turret armor, torpedo belt, etc etc... oh wait you do get those torps that you yourself said should not even be considered part of Kiis core playstyle.

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