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nerderklaus

Tier 10 is making Tier 8 unplayable

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Am i really only one who dont really care if its vs T10 in T8 except in Carriers, since AA goes up drasticly.

 

Protected MM isnt required in higher tiers, carriers could use it bit more than other classes.

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RethyI   

Frustrating as it is, being uptiered in a game should potentially teach better positioning and stuff. 

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29 minutes ago, Dragnorak said:

 

Yes agreed. It cant be any fun for cruisers.  Monarch seems to be ideally suited to it and copes with it rather well. As you say when I'm in My Fujin I could not care less whats in the game...

Cruser problem is not MM it is BB overpower and overpopulation. Unitl WG can fix BBs we will get BBs vs DDs games. And i dont belive wg will even try to fix bbs. 

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1 hour ago, Guillotine said:

Am i really only one who dont really care if its vs T10 in T8 except in Carriers, since AA goes up drasticly.

 

Protected MM isnt required in higher tiers, carriers could use it bit more than other classes.

IJN carriers are still ok, at least Shokaku is with T10 MM as you can offer huge map control and spot anything that's out there and you can brute force strike stuff in a pinch. Granted you have to be patient but it isn't unplayable in my view.

 

USN stuff however lol

 

A Kaga vs a good Saipan in a T5 heavy MM (so no AA is around to support you) is unplayable in my eyes though.

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Capra76   
3 hours ago, Negativvv said:

T8 is possibly the hardest tier other than T5 maybe.

 

However consider it a challenge. No reason why you can't do well even in +2 MM.

 

 

T8 BB & DD can handle being uptiered quite well, I think it's more a problem for the cruisers.

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3 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

T8 BB & DD can handle being uptiered quite well, I think it's more a problem for the cruisers.

Yeah with DDs it isn't an issue and often better as T10 BBs can be very easy to torp due to their huge dimensions.

 

BBs have a fair time being bottom tier. By T8 they get very competitive armour so it's harder to get nuked. Unlike say a New York vs a Nagato where the T5 ship is utterly scr3wed as she's slower, under gunned and her armour is useless vs 16" shells.

 

Cruisers are just cruisers sadly, almost all of them. Even T10 run the risk of being nuked from full HP from making a mistake. T9 is the low point for Cruisers IMO as T8 gets better MM and the lines I've played don't differ much in ability between T8 and T9 to make facing T10 more of the time worth while.

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4 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

No. Better help them to get better

Not religious at all, but AMEN!

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Though I am not as pessimistic about my chances as OP when I do get uptiered I too don't like the overly high probability of being uptiered. Maybe change matchmaking algorithms to create full T10 matches first and only throw any remaining T10s in lower tiered battles? Apart from having to play less uptiered battles as a T8 then it also is a huge difference if the setup of T10/T9/T8 is 2/5/5 or 8/2/2 per team.

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I think a lot depends, if you're bottom tier, is the number of ships in the +2 tier rather than the same or +1 tier.

 

I've been in games in a T5 where there is on T6 BB and the rest are all T7 BBs, T6 or T7 CAs and similar mix of DDs.  I've had similar MM in T7 and T8.

 

I understand that with a big enough sample then this should even itself out but I've not had that many games yet!

 

 

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and Tier 9 makes Tier 7 unplayable..

wait.. buIIshit!

 

it's not about the ships participating, it's about the the awareness of map, ships, (limits of your) own skills and the ability to make a conclusion out of this which role your ship has to play in that battle.

 

if you lack of it in a game, you lack of it on the long run - simple is that

 

I love to be low tier any game! More Exp, more possible damage, more effort and more challenging.

 

Just accept you can't be the dominating ship as the top tier every single game. But you can be the edge to victory if you play your role the best you can.

 

All this crying about tiers, ships, changes wargaming make is buIIshit and nothing but a misinterpretation of your awareness of the things mentioned above. Accept it, learn out of it or get a hobby that makes you more happy then angry and sad.. :Smile-_tongue:

shot-17.11.02_19.46.48-0003.jpg

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2 minutes ago, _artista_ said:

and Tier 9 makes Tier 7 unplayable..

wait.. buIIshit!

 

it's not about the ships participating, it's about the the awareness of map, ships, (limits of your) own skills and the ability to make a conclusion out of this which role your ship has to play in that battle.

 

if you lack of it in a game, you lack of it on the long run - simple is that

 

I love to be low tier any game! More Exp, more possible damage, more effort and more challenging.

 

Just accept you can't be the dominating ship as the top tier every single game. But you can be the edge to victory if you play your role the best you can.

 

All this crying about tiers, ships, changes wargaming make is buIIshit and nothing but a misinterpretation of your awareness of the things mentioned above. Accept it, learn out of it or get a hobby that makes you more happy then angry and sad.. :Smile-_tongue:

shot-17.11.02_19.46.48-0003.jpg

 

Agreed entirely, the problem is that some players do not adjust their playing style and instead lament the fact that they aren't in the biggest and meanest ships in the match. They complain over and over that there's nothing they can do against ships 2 tiers higher than themselves. Newsflash - you aren't meant to take on ships 2 tiers higher unless there's a massive difference in player ability, instead a lower tier player is expected to provide support rather than the spearhead. Everyone must pull their weight on the team and those that don't will always have problems, regardless of whether that is due to them pulling below their weight or trying to punch above their weight - either route causes problems.

 

The important thing is that the teams themselves are balanced, not necessarily every single ship being balanced against every other ship. It's fine to have some weaker team members who have to rely heavily on their allies as long as the opposing team has some too, just as it's okay to have some leviathans that are a nightmare to bring down as long as both teams have them - the winner will be the team that best adjusts it's playing style based on the ships involved and the differences between the teams (in playing style, not power).

 

Plus, being top tier places a huge amount of responsibility on the player. Being bottom tier gives a more relaxing game as the team isn't reliant on you to carry, you just have to support everyone else and help them do their job.

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9 minutes ago, _artista_ said:

and Tier 9 makes Tier 7 unplayable..

wait.. buIIshit!

 

it's not about the ships participating, it's about the the awareness of map, ships, (limits of your) own skills and the ability to make a conclusion out of this which role your ship has to play in that battle.

 

if you lack of it in a game, you lack of it on the long run - simple is that

 

I love to be low tier any game! More Exp, more possible damage, more effort and more challenging.

 

Just accept you can't be the dominating ship as the top tier every single game. But you can be the edge to victory if you play your role the best you can.

 

All this crying about tiers, ships, changes wargaming make is buIIshit and nothing but a misinterpretation of your awareness of the things mentioned above. Accept it, learn out of it or get a hobby that makes you more happy then angry and sad.. :Smile-_tongue:

shot-17.11.02_19.46.48-0003.jpg

 

Yeah, post a picture like that when you're in a Cruiser or a BB with a +2 MM :cap_book:

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The problem for me is not that T8 ships can't compete in a T10 battle - they can... or rather, they could, if one wasn't teamed up with cute little kittens driving the T10 BBs..

 

I often wonder how I  make it in my Bismarck one of the top 3 spots in the results screen in a T10 battle with 3 T10 and one T9 BB, that all end up behind me... And often enough near the end of the score list..

 

My very personal impression is, as soon as I choose a T8 to play, I have a 50% chance to end in a T10 battle. And in most of those battles I manage to get into the top 5 results, winning or losing. With quite a few T10 ships behind me...

 

For me THAT is the reason why I don't like to be upgraded into T10 battles when playing T8

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17 minutes ago, RamirezKurita said:

Plus, being top tier places a huge amount of responsibility on the player. Being bottom tier gives a more relaxing game as the team isn't reliant on you to carry, you just have to support everyone else and help them do their job.

 

Yeah, like the average potato cares about responsibility. The huge amount of T10 BBs who are totaly imcompetent is frightening to say the least. And good luck when u have a tripple division of them. If i wouldnt care about carrying the game even in bottom tiers, oh boy i guess my WR would drop drastically.

 

Btw having more EXP being lowtier: ofc for good players its naturally easy(ier) to accomplish, because u know, getting more EXP for damaging higher tier enemies :cap_hmm:Getting highest XP being toptier i find harder to accomplish.

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16 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

The problem for me is not that T8 ships can't compete in a T10 battle - they can... or rather, they could, if one wasn't teamed up with cute little kittens driving the T10 BBs..

 

Quoted for truth!

 

@_artista_ posting 1 screen like this doesnt chance anything. We all have screens like this. But we get it. you are awesome *yawn*

 

24 minutes ago, RamirezKurita said:

Newsflash - you aren't meant to take on ships 2 tiers higher

 

Good that you agree on +/-1 mm

 

On another note: With all the different nations, shiplines, gimmicks etc. +-2 mm faces another huge problem - equally dividing ships with same strenghts. There are the occasional 4 vs 0 Radarships f.e. There are enough ships available for +-1 mm to make for existing games with loads of different ships. It wouldnt be like years ago 5 Nagatos vs 5 Nagatos and 4 Pensacolas vs 4 Pensacolas.

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El2aZeR   
9 hours ago, nerderklaus said:

Get rid of the particular broken stuff like BBs that get cruiserlike spreads

 

I don't think Yamato needs any nerfs.

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mariouus   

I would say that tier.8 BB (and probably DD)s can play at tier.X with-out much problems. Tirpitz or Bismarck for example is just small and maneuverable enough do fight on tier.X maps. Sure their firepower is lacking, but the fact that they can manouver  in the places, where tier.X BB can not, is nice. I, for one, prefer Tirpitz in tier.X anyday, over Iowa or Montana. The reason why I do not play tier.9 and tier.10 BBs, is that they are so large and unmanouvrable that they are very hard do play aggresively. Lets face it, if you play your Tirpitz or Bismarck and your secondaries are not firing, then you are doing it wrong.

 

But yes, I hate playing tier.8 cruisers in tier.X battle.

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Just quickly going through some points made...

 

"No +2 would be P2W"

Emmm, certainly not. Tier 8 is very popular meaning there would be other tier 8 that are toptier too and facing tier 9 would be still possible.

 

"DDs and +2"

Emm, tier 8 DDs can meet ships from tier 6 to 10. It's up to you to look up radar data based on which of these tiers are encountered and how hydros get better. Belfast has it's reputation for doing certain things, but right now there is a certain rare DD and two regular DDs are in the making. They will probably get weaker cannons the a Belfast, but using such tools with DD concealment and even having torps are game elements I don't really want to be teamed up with, because it's too much reponsibility on random team members I can't influence. The other things is that obviously as a DD you have a better time when there are no radars or less radars.

 

"BBs and +2"

Emmm, one of the extremely severe power creeps. In case of every line the tier 10 ships is so much better that it feels like old WOT MM as a tier 6 that was meeting 9s and 10s almost every game and got the ace tanker the one single time it only faced tier 8.

 

"Helping average tier 10 players (extremely bad by standards of all other tiers)" and "there is a tier 10 ship to deal with the enemy tier 10 ship"

They certainly don't progress from a negative number to something considerable within one game and the other big thing is that the tier 8 ship often has to directly combat tier 10 ships, because the own tier 10 are far inferior in comparison with a coop bot. Eventually this just makes for running against a wall and a game with not only a 100% unchangable result, but a cap on a generally bad match as well just because some extremely bad players want to power creep two tiers lower ships all day long. Maybe it is a stupid idea to potencially make people not want to play tier 8 where most of the premium revenue comes from.

 

"Tier 10 population"

Maybe there are reasons that nobody wants to play that broken tier with these [edited]. I mean even statpadders who desperately look for the worst enemies they can find to claim it means the same as beating good players often don't wanna go there, because it's too annoying and that really means something

 

"The system teaches camping"

Even though standard battles have been returned to high tier to help campers and bad players there is domination in most battle and this mode is pretty simple. For someone who is even remotely mentally able it should be obvious that usually the caps win these games which is active, not passive. Granted, some people fail to get that, but this is on them.

 

"Chances of getting +2"

Varies a bit from ship to ship. With BBs it's roughly 2/3 lately, but for carrier it's much worse lately. Seems like them being limited to one per match and things looking like imbalances make most people quit CV at tier 7 or 8 really make it very bad for them.

 

Comparison with T5/T7

The big difference is that ranges are shorter and ships turn better in regards to gameplay and generally ship power creep is lower. This results in 5vs7 being drastically more enjoyable compared to 8vs10 even though it's still extreme. Another big problem is that playerskill can do more. These low manouverability ships combined with the high ranges drastically increase the impact of some people simply getting better RNG than others meaning things like 15km+ shell exchanges and one guy firing tiny groups while the other one shotguns most of the time.

 

"Cruiser 8vs9"

It seems to be in line what happens between these tiers. Now basically Atago and Fiji have heals there, but AFAIK all cruisers get heal at tier 9 and Neptune gets a much better heal. The ability of cruisers to take some shots, hide for a bit while repairing and then come back with more reserves makes for more difference than it seems on the first look. The only one that really doesn't care is MK since IFHE.

 

Comments of butthurt tier 10 abusers

Keep proving me right you dum***ses

 

Statements like "Challenge"

There might be some challenge to getting damage and such, if you care for it, but based on it being the game the ultimate objective should be victory. This is kinda hard with such an insane power creep, if you own toptiers often are  failing to a degree that looks as if they intentionally do as bad as possible like the Monatana that hugs the Western white line when all enemies are far East. You can really hurt a Yamato when you catch it off-guard, a Shimakaze has a long time of effectively being disarmed and Minotaur has it's citadel, but there are Montanas with lowered citadel and spreads that encourage range camping and the Conqueeror. Monarch is being used as example a lot here, but lowered citadel, heal, better camo than some involved cruisers, RN BB HE. It's basically fighting broken game designs by picking broken game designs which in return says "avoid non-broken, remotely OK and anything in between game designs"...

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lup3s   
8 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

That's simply not true. Toptier ships are always exactly mirrored. Toptier - 1 BBs are mirrored as well.

 

But not per class.

 

Imo tier mirroring per class is more important than tier mirroring in the entire team.

e.g. 2 T8 Cruisers vs 2 T9s; 2 T9 DDs vs 2 T8s

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Capra76   
2 hours ago, lup3s said:

 

But not per class.

 

 

Er, yes they are, you will always get the same number of top tier BB, top tier CA and top tier DD.

 

The only slight wrinkle is that the top tier ships can be mirrored at zero, so your T-1 DD might be the highest tier DD in the game, but not matched against a same tier ship on the other team.

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12 hours ago, nerderklaus said:

What is the big problem?

 

0:3 Radar ships and 3x tier 8 ships at rank 1-3 in this tier 10 battle:

 

shot-17.10.15_22.56.39-0831_yug.jpg

 

So, what is your real problem?

 

Random matches are low skill matches. Tier differences and so on aren't very important in low skill matches. Just play smart and you will be successful in random matches.

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20 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Er, yes they are, you will always get the same number of top tier BB, top tier CA and top tier DD.

 

@lup3s gave a perfect example, what he meant. But better not quote that part, when answering, right? Way to participate in a discussion on a decent level, you go! :cap_fainting:

 

16 minutes ago, darky_fighter said:

So, what is your real problem?

 

Random matches are low skill matches.

 

:Smile_facepalm: Yea nice. You found a screen where you beat 3 Radars without one yourself. Btw - Chapayev doesnt have radar on default. And did anyone argue, this isnt possible to win? Again: When you look at matchmaking issues, you leave skill out of it. If you put a skilled players into T2 DDs, they gonna trash a bunch of newbs in any Tier. What point does this prove about matchmaking? Exactly, nothing.

 

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2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

And did anyone argue, this isnt possible to win?

 

There are a lot of threads about matchmaking (radar ship differences, tier differences and DD differences) and the title of this thread is: "Tier 10 is making Tier 8 unplayable". So I choosed a tier 10 match with radar AND tier differences. Random matches are low skill matches. Tier differences aren't important in low skill matches. We have skill differences in almost every match. This is the important point. But people often think that they lose because of tier differences, radar ship differences or DD differences. So they blame the matchmaking. But this is the wrong way. They should better check win rates of teammates and opponents. Then they can see the real reason why they lose a match.

 

This is the real reason why people lose matches:

 

c810bb-1484229015.jpg

 

This is the real reason why people lose matches:

 

vr3wkufp.jpg

 

This is the real reason why people lose matches:

 

b4gfmwg7.jpg

 

And so on.

 

Matchmaking is fine. Tier 10 isn't making Tier 8 unplayable. The players are the problem.

 

I like the +/-2 MM. You have to adapt your playstyle when you are low or high tier. This is interesting. This gives variety.

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