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nerderklaus

Tier 10 is making Tier 8 unplayable

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How severe this gets obviously depends on luck to some degree, f.e. if +2MM happens twice as often to you compared to somebody else in tier 8 ships there obviously is a difference in perception.

 

Anyway, an old WOT pattern carried over to AW and potencially feels even worse. Many people try using the certain toptier spot of a tier 10 ships and the far-too-extreme power creep compared to tier 8 as an l2p replacement. In the beginning this was most common with Yamato and Shimakaze (many of them obviously still don't know of radar), but Montanas got more common, there are other tier 10 BB as well and lately it seems as if a lot of people convert Minotaurs. The type of player who hugs the Western white line while the enemy is doing lemming train or lemming camping in th far East simply is common as with NC, Iowa and tier 10 BB players. The Montana who wants even more injustified buffs so he does no longer need to run away from a half HP tier 9 ship, because it isn't a tier 8 cruiser. Other things would be the Shimakaze spending all game on trying to torp the only tier 8 BB in the other game and not hitting a single torp in the process or the Shimakaze who searches the shootout with the Khaba or the Shimakaze who ignores the the Des Moins at 10km, because it got a couple of km concealment left. Whoever denies that tier 10 is by far the worst one when it comes to player quality must be drugged up to levels that would kill 99% of the people out there instantanously.

 

What is the big problem? As a tier 8 ship you are dealing with differences like the tier 10 ship of the line having up to +50% HP, massive firepower advantages and gimmicks added. Lets say a Bismarck having 8x380mm compared to 12x406mm (and  reload upgrade in the tier 9/10 slot) or other parameters on cannons increase so that you get a comparison like New Orleans vs. Des Moines and it gets even worse when you add the heal into the equation. Another big ones would be the risc of one lucky salvo severely screwing a cruisers goes up time when there are things like the Monatana with it's BS spread on 12 cannons ("we increase sigma on BBs with 8/9 cannons to make RNG more consisted"). To make matters even worse someone had the idea to introduce even more radar carriers with DD concealment. Almost every line, even the ones who are said to have bad AA get massive AA leaps in tier 9 and/or 10 so that when carriers are involved sometimes the power creep gets just passively applied, so that CV gets screwed pretty hard as well (even more than other +2 ships do to CV). A particulary annoying one would be having lots of tier 10 DDs that are good to cap, but none of them bothering to cap and ending up forced to take the risc as a Kiev which usually doesn't end well.

 

Tier 4 had the MM fixed, because +2 MM was too extreme, but most games in my tier 8 ships are unplayable, because of a +2 power creep that is even worse with usually even worse toptier players so that things get utterly unplayable. The MM often litterally composes matches like lots of tier 10, lots of tier 8, few tier 9 so that the tier 8 ships really get screwed hard as if it was intended to give free points for some bad players who play their tier 10 ship most of the time. It certainly is much worse than tier 5 vs 7 and actually I even would recommond tier 7 over tier 8 for premiums currently, because they don't meed the retarded tier 10 players and a power creep as extreme as tier 8 vs 10. In my personal case results vary drastically based on how lucky or unlucky I am with battletiers, f.e. losing over 90% of +2MM in tier 8, because of "reasons", "WG reasons". Another big problem is that in these tier 10 battles range camping is most common and easier to maintain compared to other tiers which makes the RNG noob bonus that gives some players tighter spreads than others even more impactful.

 

Something must be done about this like for example...

  • Protect ALL premium ships against +2MM
  • Reduce the chance of +2MM or somehow normalize it, tier 8 is unplayable when 2/3 of your matches are +2
  • Balance power creep between tiers
  • Do something that extremely bad players can't drive ships that certainly get a toptier spot all the time
  • Get rid of the particular broken stuff like BBs that get cruiserlike spreads

 

If tier 10 was that magic spot where players are better than in other tiers as noob ad hominem claims, there would be no need for such an absurd power creep to a tier they meet most of the time in random battles. Based on the extreme potencial for MM to screw people over based on what kind of people is in tier 10 ships most of the time, it simply is too much what the MM can do there currently. The more severe a power creep between tiers is the less you can do when your toptier is being denied by it's players. The severity of the issue that is being tolerated feels as either this is different on other servers or devs aren't playing this game.

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Or, get to TX, it all seems much better there right?

No +2 ever.

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29 minutes ago, nerderklaus said:
  • Protect ALL premium ships against +2MM

No. That would be P2W.

 

29 minutes ago, nerderklaus said:

 

 

  • Reduce the chance of +2MM or somehow normalize it, tier 8 is unplayable when 2/3 of your matches are +2

 

Less often would be nice, but Tier VIII is not unplayable. DD and BB are fine, but you have to be extremly careful with cruisers.

 

29 minutes ago, nerderklaus said:

 

  • Balance power creep between tiers

Do not know what you mean, but ships of equal Tiers should be equally powerful.

 

 

29 minutes ago, nerderklaus said:

 

  • Do something that extremely bad players can't drive ships that certainly get a toptier spot all the time

No. Better help them to get better

 

29 minutes ago, nerderklaus said:

 

  • Get rid of the particular broken stuff like BBs that get cruiserlike spreads

 

Too poweful ships should be avoided in all classes.

 

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Maybe if more people would play T10 it wouldn't screw you guys over so bad. PREMIUM SHIPS SHOULD NOT be MM protected. One thing will lead to another..I think the issue with limiting t8 ships to +1/-1 is the lack of high tier players...MM is forced to put you T8 vs people like me who play t10 99% of the time. I refuse to believe that T10 camps more than any other tiers because the amount of weetards are equal on all tiers.

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1st) The Bismarck is not matched against the Montana. If your team has a Bismarck, the other team has a T8 BB too. So either the two T8 BBs meet and fight each other, or on both side the T8 BBs fight the 10s. At the end, no team has a advantage or disadvantage, only the individual player has an more harder (or easy) fight.


The isuee is more that sometimes one team has more T10s or T9s than the other one.

That creates true imbalance and is the only real issue with the MM atm imo.


2nd) All T8s can fight T10s - by avoiding them. On most cases, the T8s have better concealment and are more agile. When i play Bismarck, get thrown into a T10 match and iam on a 1v1 against a Kurfürst, i simply dont fight it - i just dodge shells or use my superior stealth to get away and focus on other targets. With my Prinz Eugen i get a majority of high tier battles and i even get 64% winrate with it, and its one of the weakest (T8) cruisers ingame. Just try to avoid the 10s and go for anything you can fight with decent chances. Even if it means you have to play a boring passive match.

 

Quote

Do something that extremely bad players can't drive ships that certainly get a toptier spot all the time

So wait... so your problem is that you are often in T10 matches with your T8 ships, but then you demand that only decent players should play T10s? Wouldnt that make your experience with T8s even worse? Imo there is nothing better than facing a noob in a T10 ship while being in your T8 ship, and their repair and more health pool actually helps YOU go get plenty of credits and XP.

 

Quote

Protect ALL premium ships against +2MM

"I pay money so make my game easier", yes, this is exactly what this game needs :Smile_great:

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T8 is possibly the hardest tier other than T5 maybe.

 

However consider it a challenge. No reason why you can't do well even in +2 MM.

 

 

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The problem with the current system imho, is it teaches passivity and cautious gameplay.   Some people may think of that as a virtue, but it can lead to booring games.

 

In other words, the way to do well at T8 is to be very cautious and careful, this "breeds a new generation" of campers.   

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T8 is a miniature experience of real life where after you graduate from university/college everybody in your first business environment tries and succeeds in EDIT over you until you learn how not to get EDIT.

Edited by Kampa1987
Swearing

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I'm currently back in T8 and yes of course I've noticed this. However I'm viewing it as an enjoyable challenge. I'm running my Monarch at 58 with a full stealth build and making it very hard for the opposing team to hit me. I'm even more stealthy than some of their TX cruisers.

 

I use PT, shoot, wait to be acquired change course and speed and drop back to stealth, rinse and repeat. It makes it very hard for them to hit you if you get it and the engagement ranges just right. I also try hard not to ever show a side where I can.

 

Of course it is a dance that is constantly evolving as the game progresses but seems to be working quite well for me at the moment in this ship. 

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28 minutes ago, Terendir said:

The isuee is more that sometimes one team has more T10s or T9s than the other one.

That's simply not true. Toptier ships are always exactly mirrored. Toptier - 1 BBs are mirrored as well.

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I would agree that beying the lowest tier most of the time is a pain, it would be nice if it was somewhat balanced in a way you get to be all in some 3/3/3 (low/mid/top) way, not 9/10 as the lowest and 1 mid, certanly it would be a dilema in terms of queque, where you would have to wait X time longer for a proper match up, but doubt its worse than just beying the lowest tier again.

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55 minutes ago, nerderklaus said:

Protect ALL premium ships against +2MM

 

Oh but let them have -2 i see... Ofc let Silver ships get screwed by MM, who cares about that right?

 

55 minutes ago, nerderklaus said:

Reduce the chance of +2MM or somehow normalize it, tier 8 is unplayable when 2/3 of your matches are +2

 

Only 2/3? Lucky u. Unplayable is not really true, for me its more like boring crap, because i get forced to play a certain way.

 

55 minutes ago, nerderklaus said:

Get rid of the particular broken stuff like BBs that get cruiserlike spreads

 

? I dont think that exists, they wanted that for the Giulio Cesare, but it didnt go through.

 

 

20 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

No. Better help them to get better

 

Good that u still have hope for WOWS playerbase.. i dont if i see ppl with hundreds or thousand of matches with certain ships and they still suck badly.

 

18 minutes ago, P2Win said:

Maybe if more people would play T10 it wouldn't screw you guys over so bad. PREMIUM SHIPS SHOULD NOT be MM protected. One thing will lead to another..I think the issue with limiting t8 ships to +1/-1 is the lack of high tier players...MM is forced to put you T8 vs people like me who play t10 99% of the time. I refuse to believe that T10 camps more than any other tiers because the amount of weetards are equal on all tiers.

 

Its a combination of: Lots of T8 BBs (which i feel will get toptier MM much more often than Cruisers) with a lack of T10 Cruisers (so u need more lower tier Cruisers to fill the space).

 

16 minutes ago, Terendir said:

The isuee is more that sometimes one team has more T10s or T9s than the other one.

That creates true imbalance and is the only real issue with the MM atm imo.

 

T10s are always matched, but the other is true, ive seen divisions getting matched while one Division is T9 and the other is T8, which is truely bad.

 

16 minutes ago, Terendir said:

Even if it means you have to play a boring passive match.

 

That would be one of the major problems, because u have to play boring matches all the time. I like some of the T8 ships i have, but playing against T9/T10 so much, why would i want to play them anymore if its no fun?

 

 

14 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

T8 is possibly the hardest tier other than T5 maybe.

 

However consider it a challenge. No reason why you can't do well even in +2 MM.

 

While true, but atleast for me its very boring getting forced to play a certain way. Also i never felt T5 to be as bad as T8.

In T5 ships u can do things against T7 ships f.e. ive gone 1vs1 with Marblehead against a Belfast once and once against Nagato which i managed to win (i was rushing towards them, not kiting away). The Marblehead has several features which T8 ships doesnt have against T10s. Very agile, small in size, fast reload. While one could say, they were potatoes, maybe bad RNG, but if id take a HIpper against yamato even a bad player could blob me away. No way i could kill him in a straight up fight. Or take a T8 Cruiser vs a T10 one... no chance.

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5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

 

 

While true, but atleast for me its very boring getting forced to play a certain way. Also i never felt T5 to be as bad as T8.

In T5 ships u can do things against T7 ships f.e. ive gone 1vs1 with Marblehead against a Belfast once and once against Nagato which i managed to win (i was rushing towards them, not kiting away). The Marblehead has several features which T8 ships doesnt have against T10s. Very agile, small in size, fast reload. While one could say, they were potatoes, maybe bad RNG, but if id take a HIpper against yamato even a bad player could blob me away. No way i could kill him in a straight up fight. Or take a T8 Cruiser vs a T10 one... no chance.

 

 

Hmm ok.

 

T8 Cruisers have it bad but no worse than T9. They're at a disadvantage vs T10 as those Cruisers tend to have more armour and DPM.

 

All T8 BBs have 32mm bows and immunity zones vs AP. RN BBs will burn everyone yes but that's not a MM issue.

 

DDs are fine as they've got good concealment and torps at T8. 

 

CVs arguably have it the hardest as T10 MM will mean you can only scout for long periods of a game but again it's not impossible only uphill.

 

Maybe vs a team of unicum then the MM might be an issue but the standard of play in Random Battles is low enough for everyone to make a difference.

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33 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

T8 Cruisers have it bad but no worse than T9. They're at a disadvantage vs T10 as those Cruisers tend to have more armour and DPM.

 

Depends on the Cruiser id say. While Hipper has atleast similar Armor to Roon/Hindenburg, it has very much less DPM than those 2. Sure, Hindenburg has 1 turret more than Roon combined with bad turret placement, but its reload is still very good (with reload module) to take advantage of brodsiding ships.

Cant say so much for the other Cruiser lines, but as ive divisioned a lot with Russian Cruisers, the Chapa does have far better concealment than the Donskoi.

RN CLs... Edinburgh is like Fiji, didnt like it very much, neptune very similar due to its high citadel alltho far superior fire rate.

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56 minutes ago, Dragnorak said:

I'm currently back in T8 and yes of course I've noticed this. However I'm viewing it as an enjoyable challenge. I'm running my Monarch at 58 with a full stealth build and making it very hard for the opposing team to hit me. I'm even more stealthy than some of their TX cruisers.

 

I use PT, shoot, wait to be acquired change course and speed and drop back to stealth, rinse and repeat. It makes it very hard for them to hit you if you get it and the engagement ranges just right. I also try hard not to ever show a side where I can.

 

Of course it is a dance that is constantly evolving as the game progresses but seems to be working quite well for me at the moment in this ship. 

Of course, there are ships which can perfectly deal with uptier MM. When I play the Minekaze, I don't care about T7 in my games.

But for cruisers, this constant +2 MM at T8, in addition to the BB-heavy meta, make things extreeeeeemely hard. You get punished so easily that even playing perfectly well, if you're spotted, you have high chance to receive high damage, or even a dev strike. The only reasonnable option imho would be +1 MM for everybody, but I don't think WoWS has the player base to allow only +1 MM, or I think it would have been done already.

Sub_octavian said they were working on modifications of BB APs and that they would "give love to cruisers and destroyers". I hope it will help cruisers survive at high tier, because like it has been said above, BB and DD can already do fine in +2 MM.

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1 minute ago, elblancogringo said:

 The only reasonnable option imho would be +1 MM for everybody, but I don't think WoWS has the player base to allow only +1 MM, or I think it would have been done already.

 

Most certainly not true (alltho several ppl will tell u otherwise) just compare the lower tiers which do have +/-1 MM and u will see that it would be no problem at all to implement it on higher tiers aswell. Even playing lower tiers u dont have to wait ages for a match to start (maybe 10 secs?) even playing in the middle of the night with only couple of k players i did wait 20-30 sec one time with a T4 ship.

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IMHO...

+/- 1 Tier MM is the way forward... it works at lower tiers fine... have the MM auto adjust to smaller line outs, if it detects longer weight times (if it doesn't already).

+/- 2 Tier works with tanks ok, basically because it's far easier to hide/limit your exposure, hence DD's not suffering as badly.

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2 hours ago, nerderklaus said:
  • Protect ALL premium ships against +2MM

Oh, yes, protect the rich and let the T10 have their fun over the peasants with their "tree ships". lol you made my day. :cap_haloween:

More seriously, it would be nice to have a max spread of tier of 1 but on the other hand, I don't want to wait.

In fact I found the worse is being in T5 against T7. Gosh I had a hard time with my Furutaka first time i got a T5. But now, well, I'm so used to it that it doesn't bother me so much anymore except when I play CV. Then I know I will have a shitty game. 

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4 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

+2/-2 MM is perfectly fine IMO, only the +2/-1 (T5-6) is a turd that needs to be addressed.

 

So basicly everyone gets +2 MM is what u are saying, otherwise it couldnt be adressed. Which would include stuff like

Langley vs Cleveland

Mikasa vs Orion :cap_haloween:

Chester vs Langley

 

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1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

So basicly everyone gets +2 MM is what u are saying, otherwise it couldnt be adressed. Which would include stuff like

Langley vs Cleveland

Mikasa vs Orion :cap_haloween:

Chester vs Langley

 

Of course you are right in the current state of the game but WG has many balancing tools at their disposal, asymetrically restricted MM shouldn't be one of them. Buff the t2-4 if needed but keep in mind they should not be a fair match to tier 6 anyway. And yes, if I had to choose between keeping the +2/-1 and +1/-1 for all, I'd choose the latter

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T8 had its own MM in Wowp where it would see T7&9 but never T10 this was due to the game mechanics where a T10 plane was vastly superior to anything T8 had to offer , At the point they introduced it Wowp was dying off but it was a good idea and seemed to be well supported by the community. 

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35 minutes ago, elblancogringo said:

Of course, there are ships which can perfectly deal with uptier MM. When I play the Minekaze, I don't care about T7 in my games.

But for cruisers, this constant +2 MM at T8, in addition to the BB-heavy meta, make things extreeeeeemely hard. You get punished so easily that even playing perfectly well, if you're spotted, you have high chance to receive high damage, or even a dev strike. The only reasonnable option imho would be +1 MM for everybody, but I don't think WoWS has the player base to allow only +1 MM, or I think it would have been done already.

Sub_octavian said they were working on modifications of BB APs and that they would "give love to cruisers and destroyers". I hope it will help cruisers survive at high tier, because like it has been said above, BB and DD can already do fine in +2 MM.

 

Yes agreed. It cant be any fun for cruisers.  Monarch seems to be ideally suited to it and copes with it rather well. As you say when I'm in My Fujin I could not care less whats in the game...

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Lol...

OP, you're delusional.

1. The most ridiculous claim you make is saying that WoWs is like WoT or worse. The reality is, however, that in WoWs the difference between tiers is much, MUCH less pronounced than in WoT - this is just a fact and can be easily seen when you think about it for a second: there is literally no such thing in this game as a ship you can't hurt due to the tier difference. Yes, a DD might be safe from a BB (although seriously hurting the latter back in 1v1 is another thing) but this is just as pronounced if the DD is two tiers below or two tiers above. Most ships are really quite good at punching up although, obviously, you usually don't want to 1v1 a ship with similar characteristics, just better (due to tier difference). Then again, 1v1 against exactly the same ship usually isn't a good idea either because - unless you SEVERELY outplay the opponent - you'll lose a lot of HP even if you win.

2. There are, in fact, two places where you're right and two tiers (or even one tier) of difference are HUGE. These places are:

 - t7- vs t8+ DDs due to concealment mod that makes the stronger DDs also stealthier, putting them on par or even ahead of lower tier "stealthy" ships, leading us to a situation where one ship both outguns and outspots the other A LOT; seeing how infferior stealth in a DD is something very hard to play around, this sudden drop in concealment at t8 screws lower tier DDs a lot. However, you're complaining about t8, right? And t8 is on the right side of this chasm in performance.

 - CVs of any tier... but, what's that: a t8 CV can never, EVER meet a t9 or t10 CV because there's the limit of 1 CV at that tier already and MM is mirrored. So, what you're left against is the t9-10 AA that certainly does hurt (and hurts a lot) but you can still look for weaker targets and dedicate yourself to scaring away (if not killing) enemy DDs and spotting while you yourself conserve your striking power until later - after all, with the dawn of UK BB HE spam, ships tend to suffer a lot of damage to their AA potential and odds are, by the middle of the battle, with teams more dispersed and partially dead (especially cruisers tend to die young) the CV will be able to find some viable targets even if undertiered.

3. Actually, protecting MM at lower tiers is excessive. It shouldn't be spread to other tiers - it should be removed from t4.

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