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wilkatis_LV

Poor implementation of CB rankings and modes durabilty

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I'll just run down, well, at least some points that I remember that make no sense, at least in my opinion.

 

For the simplicity I'm using the "better known" names for leagues as Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum, and a numbers 1 through 3 to represent division (B3 is the lowest rank, P1 is the highest).

 


 

3 divisions in each League, each worth of 100pt. Or are they?

 

Lets say you are at 95 pts. You need 1 win to go to a higher division. You win your next game.

And now in the new division you start with what seems to be the difference between what you earned and what you needed.

Why do you start up in a new division with some points under your belt?

This effectively makes it 1 division of 300pts not 3 divisions of 100pts each.

 


 

Clan spread and resulting pt gain.

 

Everyone started B2, meaning that even if you lose you will fall by just 1 division - no lower than B3.

This leads to a massive clump up of Clans in the bronze ratings, which leads to a massive difference between pt gained for a win and pt lost for a defeat, easily 1 win per 3...4 losses.

This promotes climbing ranks with winrates as low as 20...25% WR.

Not only ranks above the starting position need space to disperse players, lower ranks also need to have space to disperse the falling ones.

 


 

Relegation games.

 

With quick climbing being as promoted as it is, there should not be a system that stops people from falling if they can't win. Of course, you can have a bad luck strike, but your rank should determine the opponents you meet and, assuming you deserved the rank that you fell from, now you meet weaker opponents with greater chance for your success.

 


 

MM spread.

 

The whole point of all the separate leagues and divisions is so that clans with vastly differing skill levels wouldn't fight each other, or at least fight each other as little as possible.

So how comes that clans in Silver can go up against clans who are already in Platinum? That is 2 full leagues difference between them.

haven't payed enough attention to know if Bronze gets matched up with Plat, hopefully at least that is not a thing.

 


 

Durability of the gamemode and reasons to keep playing it.

 

You've reached Plat, you've got your 30 wins in it. Now what?

There is no rank decay and no post-season rank related rewards.

So there is actually no reason to keep playing it other than "why not".

As the top clans stop playing next ones below them become the current "top clans". And they now reach their 30 wins in Plat and... no more reason to keep playing, so they stop. And so on.

It promotes reaching highest rank for the masses and removes the competitive "this clan is better than that clan" element from CB.

 


 

 

I feel like I forgot something, but hey, can just write it later in the comments.

As you can see this is in no way related to what ships are played / can be played or any playstyles, as those are not connected to how the ranking system is works.

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54 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

As the top clans stop playing next ones below them become the current "top clans". And they now reach their 30 wins in Plat and... no more reason to keep playing, so they stop. And so on.

It promotes reaching highest rank for the masses and removes the competitive "this clan is better than that clan" element from CB.

 

Yep. And its sure wanted by WG. Its just another gamemode, very similar to ranked. Has really not much to do with beeing competetive or finding out, which clan is the best or whats the top 5 clans. But when I said this before the CW started - oh boy was I hated :)

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My gripe with clan battles is that the small maximum size of clans can prevent more casual clans from playing clan battles. Currently, you need to have nearly 25% of the guild online and willing to have a clan battle at the same time to even play a match. For example, our Scrub clan is divided into three separate clans and we'd have much easier time to gather enough people for clan battles if we could have everyone in one single clan.

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There is no points limit I believe at the highest league, so the best teams can still battle it out for bragging rights.

The leagues are still being formed really, so I think it will settle down into fairly competitive play.

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2 hours ago, Armorin said:

There is no points limit I believe at the highest league, so the best teams can still battle it out for bragging rights.

The leagues are still being formed really, so I think it will settle down into fairly competitive play.

 

No points limit, yeah.

And no rewards past your 30th win in Plat.

There is no reason to play other than "why not".

 

And yes, they are still forming, but because of how overflooded the lower leagues are the elo system simply doesn't let people to fall down. With just 3h per 4 days a week in 9 weeks total runtime there just isn't that much time for them to settle properly. That's 108h of CB of whom 21h have passed already. That's 19.44% of the whole season gone, and we don't have the ranks "settled".

 

It's just not really a competitive gamemode, it's "get your rewards and forget it exists" kind of game

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Maybe for the next season, they will use the results of this season as the starting point for the league formation?

I like the 7v7 format. Much more fun for playing classes other than BB. I feel like I can actually play my ship role. I'm beginning to learn which ships I can rip to shreds, and which ones are my ships nemesis. Sometimes it is highly situational, depending on what the enemy choose to do.

Ofc, we didn't get promoted straight to the top of the league like some of the mighty clans. We got promoted on the third attempt and hope not to have to fight a relegation. We rotate our team quite a bit so that everybody who can make the session and is eligible has a go. We have some good players, but most of us are average, and quite a few of us are using rent-a-ships at the moment.

The main point is that we are having fun. I hope WG listens to some of the feedback and that the clan functionality improves over time.

 

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I think the OP might have a point where the top clan stops playing as so not to risk losing their number 1 status. I'm not an expert on the ELO system though.

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1 hour ago, Armorin said:

Maybe for the next season, they will use the results of this season as the starting point for the league formation?

I like the 7v7 format. Much more fun for playing classes other than BB. I feel like I can actually play my ship role. I'm beginning to learn which ships I can rip to shreds, and which ones are my ships nemesis. Sometimes it is highly situational, depending on what the enemy choose to do.

Ofc, we didn't get promoted straight to the top of the league like some of the mighty clans. We got promoted on the third attempt and hope not to have to fight a relegation. We rotate our team quite a bit so that everybody who can make the session and is eligible has a go. We have some good players, but most of us are average, and quite a few of us are using rent-a-ships at the moment.

The main point is that we are having fun. I hope WG listens to some of the feedback and that the clan functionality improves over time.

 

In my experience playing a DD in this format is the most frustrating thing ever, simply because there is no radar cap. You get radared constantly, everyone runs hydro, so torp hits are very rare, and most of the time it is better for you not to even shoot your guns but rather turn away and out of detection range.

 

Extremely frustrating.

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19 minutes ago, Tekacko said:

In my experience playing a DD in this format is the most frustrating thing ever, simply because there is no radar cap. You get radared constantly, everyone runs hydro, so torp hits are very rare, and most of the time it is better for you not to even shoot your guns but rather turn away and out of detection range.

 

Extremely frustrating.

 

Not got a TX DD yet to have a go. I install radar on my Mino and go DD hunting. Just hope I don't come across a ship that can punch through me at any angle.

The team xp is shared, so damage is not so important. I would have thought a DD could spot, use torps to force enemy to show broadside and perform other team winning tactics.

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Well rewards are quite decent so i see no reason to stop, elite captain XP and free XP.

 

Also fighting vs competant opponents is fun in organised teams. I dont see anything wrong fighting higher ranked opponents is great way to learn, we fought OMNI and had chance to win it but then we made few mistakes and lost, but it was great fight.

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1 hour ago, Tekacko said:

In my experience playing a DD in this format is the most frustrating thing ever, simply because there is no radar cap. You get radared constantly, everyone runs hydro, so torp hits are very rare, and most of the time it is better for you not to even shoot your guns but rather turn away and out of detection range.

 

Extremely frustrating.

 

Arent you glad that you dont have CV planes sitting over you constantly anytime you leave your teams AA bubble?

 

As someone who has played DDs in numerous tier 8 competitive games, CBs is much more enjoyable and you have a lot more freedom, even more than randoms due to the lower ship count in some games.

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17 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

I'll just run down, well, at least some points that I remember that make no sense, at least in my opinion.

 

For the simplicity I'm using the "better known" names for leagues as Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum, and a numbers 1 through 3 to represent division (B3 is the lowest rank, P1 is the highest).

 


 

3 divisions in each League, each worth of 100pt. Or are they?

 

Lets say you are at 95 pts. You need 1 win to go to a higher division. You win your next game.

And now in the new division you start with what seems to be the difference between what you earned and what you needed.

Why do you start up in a new division with some points under your belt?

This effectively makes it 1 division of 300pts not 3 divisions of 100pts each.

 


 

I guess that you dont see why there are 3 divisions in each league instead of just 1 bigger one. Sadly I am not getting your problem with that beside that it "makes no sense, at least in your opinion". To understand that you have to look into human psychologie. To make a game fun you have to set short, mid and longterm goals that are desireable. For example a short term goal is to win the next game to gain points. A long term goal could be something like win 30 battles in typhoon. A nice mid term goal could be "climb to the next division in this session/week". Climbing up a division feels more satisfying than going from 94 to 109 points. Also seperat divisions give a cleaner look at each league.

 

 

17 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Clan spread and resulting pt gain.

 

Everyone started B2, meaning that even if you lose you will fall by just 1 division - no lower than B3.

This leads to a massive clump up of Clans in the bronze ratings, which leads to a massive difference between pt gained for a win and pt lost for a defeat, easily 1 win per 3...4 losses.

This promotes climbing ranks with winrates as low as 20...25% WR.

Not only ranks above the starting position need space to disperse players, lower ranks also need to have space to disperse the falling ones.

 

I am sorry again, because I cant see a problem in that. Again you need to look at human psychologie. If you could drop infinitly, you would stop playing very soon as climbing up is much harder than just forming a new team. I cant see a problem giving easy pointgains for lower leagues as it is more fun to have gained points at the end of a session even with a negativ winrate than having lost points. This mode is made to get player playing and not to scare them away. I can ensure you that it will be a lot more difficult to gain points in the higher leagues, which is good.

 

17 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Relegation games.

 

With quick climbing being as promoted as it is, there should not be a system that stops people from falling if they can't win. Of course, you can have a bad luck strike, but your rank should determine the opponents you meet and, assuming you deserved the rank that you fell from, now you meet weaker opponents with greater chance for your success.

 

Just as stated before, quick climbing works only for the lower 2 leagues. Relegation/Promoting games are a fun mini "final" and if you cant win you will get thrown a league back, cant see a problem there.

 

 

17 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

MM spread.

 

The whole point of all the separate leagues and divisions is so that clans with vastly differing skill levels wouldn't fight each other, or at least fight each other as little as possible.

So how comes that clans in Silver can go up against clans who are already in Platinum? That is 2 full leagues difference between them.

haven't payed enough attention to know if Bronze gets matched up with Plat, hopefully at least that is not a thing.

 

 

MM does not (only?) depend on the league and points you have. There has to be a hidden elo rating that (mostly?) determins who you play. If you win a lot of games quickly in a lower league you will face higher ranked opponents very quickly as the elo system tries to match equal opponents. Also an agressive (fast matching) MM reduces que times. It happens very rarely that you face an opponent way below or above you. To us that happens maybe once or twice an evening (~10% of the games) which should be fine.

 

17 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Durability of the gamemode and reasons to keep playing it.

 

You've reached Plat, you've got your 30 wins in it. Now what?

There is no rank decay and no post-season rank related rewards.

So there is actually no reason to keep playing it other than "why not".

As the top clans stop playing next ones below them become the current "top clans". And they now reach their 30 wins in Plat and... no more reason to keep playing, so they stop. And so on.

It promotes reaching highest rank for the masses and removes the competitive "this clan is better than that clan" element from CB.

 


 

I feel like I forgot something, but hey, can just write it later in the comments.

As you can see this is in no way related to what ships are played / can be played or any playstyles, as those are not connected to how the ranking system is works.

 

If CB will provide a reason to play them over the whole season for the top clans remains to be seen. Right now I have more fun carrying 6 instead of 11 bobs ;). (Or getting carried...)

WG has to provide long term goals to keep players interested. Additional rewards depending on your position on the ladder might be one thing, on the other hand it is just cool to be inside the top20/10/5/3. Also I cant see that many clans getting to typhoon. Yesterday they said on stream that there were aroung 1000 Clans playing, i cant see more than 50-100 max getting to typhoon. That would be something between 5-10%.

Also 2500 base XP for a win are a nice incentive to keep playing.

 

I hope that I could explain the points bothering you, to me they all make sense.

 

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4 hours ago, Armorin said:

Maybe for the next season, they will use the results of this season as the starting point for the league formation?

I like the 7v7 format. Much more fun for playing classes other than BB. I feel like I can actually play my ship role. I'm beginning to learn which ships I can rip to shreds, and which ones are my ships nemesis. Sometimes it is highly situational, depending on what the enemy choose to do.

Ofc, we didn't get promoted straight to the top of the league like some of the mighty clans. We got promoted on the third attempt and hope not to have to fight a relegation. We rotate our team quite a bit so that everybody who can make the session and is eligible has a go. We have some good players, but most of us are average, and quite a few of us are using rent-a-ships at the moment.

The main point is that we are having fun. I hope WG listens to some of the feedback and that the clan functionality improves over time.

 

 

That's not the point. As I sated - I'm not talking about what ships you play or or can play, not talking about how you play. I'm talking about how the system works. And currently - it simply doesn't.

 

3 hours ago, Armorin said:

I think the OP might have a point where the top clan stops playing as so not to risk losing their number 1 status. I'm not an expert on the ELO system though.

 

I've played Ranked in ELO system for about 5 years at this point, and it's not like there was a very popular display of implementation out there, is it? A game that has been played by millions for hundreds and thousands of games each year for the last 8-ish years? No no, no examples found :Smile_trollface:

 

And to be fair, the ELO part is the part that should be working well here, it's the everything around it that doesn't. You don't start from 0, you can't really fall, MM spread is a bit wild.

 

2 hours ago, Tekacko said:

In my experience playing a DD in this format is the most frustrating thing ever, simply because there is no radar cap. You get radared constantly, everyone runs hydro, so torp hits are very rare, and most of the time it is better for you not to even shoot your guns but rather turn away and out of detection range.

 

Extremely frustrating.

 

But CVs were removed so DDs wouldn't be permaspotted, how can you be frustrated now?! It's not like it was everyone could see that without a CV everyone will go for Radar and Hydro :Smile_trollface:

 


 

oooh, the last one is a big one, I'll answer that separately

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39 minutes ago, TobiAssho said:

 

I guess that you dont see why there are 3 divisions in each league instead of just 1 bigger one. Sadly I am not getting your problem with that beside that it "makes no sense, at least in your opinion". To understand that you have to look into human psychologie. To make a game fun you have to set short, mid and longterm goals that are desireable. For example a short term goal is to win the next game to gain points. A long term goal could be something like win 30 battles in typhoon. A nice mid term goal could be "climb to the next division in this session/week". Climbing up a division feels more satisfying than going from 94 to 109 points. Also seperat divisions give a cleaner look at each league.

 

 

But going from S3 95pt to S2 25ps is the same as going from S 95pt to S 125pt.

If it's a separate "bracket" it should have separate points, not whatever was left over from the previous "bracket"


43 minutes ago, TobiAssho said:

 

I am sorry again, because I cant see a problem in that. Again you need to look at human psychologie. If you could drop infinitly, you would stop playing very soon as climbing up is much harder than just forming a new team. I cant see a problem giving easy pointgains for lower leagues as it is more fun to have gained points at the end of a session even with a negativ winrate than having lost points. This mode is made to get player playing and not to scare them away. I can ensure you that it will be a lot more difficult to gain points in the higher leagues, which is good.

 

 

Who said anything about infinity? I said about dropping overall. You just can't fall. There is just 1 division below your starting point, meaning that it immediately is overflowed.

The WR part should have explained this part by itself -> it's WRONG that you can climb with just 20...25% WR. That means you lose up to 4 of every 5 games you play and you still climb higher.

There simply needs to be more space for players to spread out. Don't set B2 as the default, set S3 as default. More place to spread down below, and that will mean slower climb up top. The MM will balance out quicker, and suddenly you wont clib by losing every game you play.

 

47 minutes ago, TobiAssho said:

Just as stated before, quick climbing works only for the lower 2 leagues. Relegation/Promoting games are a fun mini "final" and if you cant win you will get thrown a league back, cant see a problem there.

 

 

Relegation games is a fun little "don't worry that you played 50 games and lost all of them, we at WG know you are good enough to keep your current rank"

My clan's in Gold right now, and the ratio is still 3:1 or even 4:1 to points gained for win compared to lost per loss. So we still could climb with just 25...30% WR.

Promotion is there to stop you from climbing too fast, "just a win-streak isn't good enough, prove yourself a few more times".

 

50 minutes ago, TobiAssho said:

MM does not (only?) depend on the league and points you have. There has to be a hidden elo rating that (mostly?) determins who you play. If you win a lot of games quickly in a lower league you will face higher ranked opponents very quickly as the elo system tries to match equal opponents. Also an agressive (fast matching) MM reduces que times. It happens very rarely that you face an opponent way below or above you. To us that happens maybe once or twice an evening (~10% of the games) which should be fine.

 

 

Have you played any games with ELO ranking previously? :cap_old:

ELO is your ranking, it's just visually represented by these leagues and divisions.

The skill gap between divisions is supposed to be quite noticeable (except, it's not there because every last potato can climb in this one).

1 full league spread - makes sense. p2 goes against people in G2 or higher - why not. We don't have that many players to make this spread tighter. But when the spread is 2 leagues 1 division (the biggest I've seen -> P2 going vs S3)  it's just wrong.

55 minutes ago, TobiAssho said:

If CB will provide a reason to play them over the whole season for the top clans remains to be seen. Right now I have more fun carrying 6 instead of 11 bobs ;). (Or getting carried...)

WG has to provide long term goals to keep players interested. Additional rewards depending on your position on the ladder might be one thing, on the other hand it is just cool to be inside the top20/10/5/3. Also I cant see that many clans getting to typhoon. Yesterday they said on stream that there were aroung 1000 Clans playing, i cant see more than 50-100 max getting to typhoon. That would be something between 5-10%.

Also 2500 base XP for a win are a nice incentive to keep playing.

 

I hope that I could explain the points bothering you, to me they all make sense.

 

 

It's very static, with no reliable spotting, and there are just 4 maps in the rotation. You can go just that far till you get sick of the exact same every game. And if there is no motivation in a for of rewards - why bother. I've already heard (well at least some higher ranked people) saying this.

 

Yeah, it's cool. But bragging rights give you nothing really. Of course, not everyone will make it. You could feed them every last thing they need and some people would still fail to get there. And 3 months isn't that much either. But as soon as the guys in the plat start quitting people from G1 will rush up, followed by G2, then G3... You surely can see how this can happen.

 

Yeah, the xp gain (as long as you win) is the only motivating factor there, but apart from free xp and elite cmdr xp - tier 10s don't really need the xp, do they? And on a loss you simply don't earn anything, might aswell be playing Co-Op at that point.

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53 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

But going from S3 95pt to S2 25ps is the same as going from S 95pt to S 125pt.

If it's a separate "bracket" it should have separate points, not whatever was left over from the previous "bracket"

 

Technicly you are right, psychologicaly you are wrong. You are creating problems in your mind that are nothing in reality.

 

54 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Who said anything about infinity? I said about dropping overall. You just can't fall. There is just 1 division below your starting point, meaning that it immediately is overflowed.

The WR part should have explained this part by itself -> it's WRONG that you can climb with just 20...25% WR. That means you lose up to 4 of every 5 games you play and you still climb higher.

There simply needs to be more space for players to spread out. Don't set B2 as the default, set S3 as default. More place to spread down below, and that will mean slower climb up top. The MM will balance out quicker, and suddenly you wont clib by losing every game you play.

 

You dont understand the concept of CB and using terms like "overflowed" and think that WR and points need to reflect immideately on the league and rating. Thats just not what CB is for. Why is it wrong to climb (to a certain stage) with a low winrate? You are climbing from T1 to T10 with loses. Not as fast if you are winning but you are climbing.

There are 2 ways to seperate good from bad teams:

1.) Let the good ones climb and the bad ones drop. That is frustrating for the "bad" ones.

2.) Let the good ones climb fast and the bad ones climb slowly. Les frustration for the bad teams.

This works only for the first 2 leagues. Reaching Typhoon and climbin inside Typhoon with a sub 50% winrate is impossible.

 

There is no problem with "overflown" leagues. Why should it be a problem to have 500 clans in one division? Why should you need more spread out leagues? This is not a ladder like in sports, its just way to deliver longterm goals to clans.

 

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Relegation games is a fun little "don't worry that you played 50 games and lost all of them, we at WG know you are good enough to keep your current rank"

My clan's in Gold right now, and the ratio is still 3:1 or even 4:1 to points gained for win compared to lost per loss. So we still could climb with just 25...30% WR.

Promotion is there to stop you from climbing too fast, "just a win-streak isn't good enough, prove yourself a few more times".

 

Relegations to climb or fall a league add some extra thrill. Games are more important than just getting some points. What is the problem with such a system? Does it take anything away from you?

"Gold" or Storm how it is called is easily reached for decent clans, but climbing inside Strom gets thougher. Thats where elo comes into play (more on that later). If you win against equal teams and lose against higher rated teams you will still climb with a 50% winrate. That is working as intended. Promotion games are blocking you to make advancing into a higher league more difficult/thrilling. I would not call "win 3 out of 5 games" a win-streak...

 

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Byou played any games with ELO ranking previously? :cap_old:

ELO is your ranking, it's just visually represented by these leagues and divisions.

The skill gap between divisions is supposed to be quite noticeable (except, it's not there because every last potato can climb in this one).

1 full league spread - makes sense. p2 goes against people in G2 or higher - why not. We don't have that many players to make this spread tighter. But when the spread is 2 leagues 1 division (the biggest I've seen -> P2 going vs S3)  it's just wrong.

 

Yes I did play ELO rating based games.

ELO in CB is NOT! represented by league or division. You are just wrong on that one. I am pretty sure that there is some kind of hidden elo-rating that is not shown but determins who you play against and how many points you get/lose. It looks as if it takes some time/games? to settle the ELO for each Clan, thats when mismatches can happen.

As I stated that elo-rating used in CB is not directly related to leagues/divisions there is no point in preventing cross league/divison MM.

 

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

It's very static, with no reliable spotting, and there are just 4 maps in the rotation. You can go just that far till you get sick of the exact same every game. And if there is no motivation in a for of rewards - why bother. I've already heard (well at least some higher ranked people) saying this.

 

Yeah, it's cool. But bragging rights give you nothing really. Of course, not everyone will make it. You could feed them every last thing they need and some people would still fail to get there. And 3 months isn't that much either. But as soon as the guys in the plat start quitting people from G1 will rush up, followed by G2, then G3... You surely can see how this can happen.

 

Yeah, the xp gain (as long as you win) is the only motivating factor there, but apart from free xp and elite cmdr xp - tier 10s don't really need the xp, do they? And on a loss you simply don't earn anything, might aswell be playing Co-Op at that point.

 

We and a lot of others still have fun playing this mode and climbing the ladder. Yes, we need more maps and I am optimistic that we might get some more before the season ends. Maybe there will also be more rewards, I dont know.

 

What is wrong with Storm clans getting into Typhoon easier later in the season? Does that take anything away from you? My guess is still that there will be less than 10% of the participating clans ending up in Typhoon. Maybe I will be wrong, but even then, what are you losing if others get there? If you want to be visually seperated from them go for top10 and you will face a hard race there.

 

Now you whine that you get too little when losing? I think we get amazing ammounts of free and commander XP, both very valuable. If you lose too much start winning more.

 

 

Maybe you didnt realize that CB are aming for a very broade audience to get as many clans as possible participating. They are doing well achieving that. I agree, that we are still lacking "very high end game content". Sorry to be blunt, but looking at your clan you should not worry about that. This mode is exactly made so that your clan has a decent chance to get 30win in Typhoon. Trust me, this will still not be a walk in the park ;).

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