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DFens_666

Rebalance CVs

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Hello everyone,

 

ive been talking the last days a lot about CVs (almost entirely with @El2aZeR) and what many people agree upon, that CVs need to change somehow. Its not about nerfing or buffing them, but as they have a high impact on the game by design, they should be represented more and be played by more people but arent because they have a lot issues.

 

A lot of changes ive stumbled upon usually seems to make CV play even more complex which i think would be a step in the wrong direction, yet making them easier to play would be once more balacing around the bottom of the barrel which we are seeing a lot lately.

 

So ive given this a lot of thought (earlier too, but being involved much ive beginning to think about it again:

Remove Fighters from CV. (I can hear the outcry, but plz continue to read why i think this would benefit the game a lot, but there would need to be more changes to help CVs also)

 

- CVs are hard to learn, and WG tried to "fix" that by removing Manual Drop from lowtiers because of Sealclubbing. Many people are saying that its stupid (me too), because now u cant learn them until T6 which makes it even harder to learn them.

So for lowtiers, removing fighters would give a reason to reinstall Manual drop for DBs and TBs, now new players can learn that mechanic, without getting stripped of their Planes by the enemy CV with strafe.

Lets face it, Good CV player can still sealclub, because they have a higher skilllevel. Bait the Fighters over your allied Ship and u most likely will win the Dogfight battle. After that, u can attack the enemy planes and get air superiority, and help your team to win the battle. But with the change, a new CV player has time to learn the mechanics. Before he couldnt because of Strafe, and now he cant because they took it away.

Also T5 CVs cant get slaughtered by T6 strafe as it happens right now. Better for learning experience

 

- It helps bad CV players at higher tiers because they get the possibilty to have some kind of impact on the game. Also they dont have that many squadrons so they can focus their attention on the Bombers. Good players will still have the same impact on dealing damage.

 

- Can be used to get Saipan "back in line" without the need to nerf it, as its a game mechanic change where the other CVs wont get nerfed. Ofc he would need a rework on the remaining squadrons.

 

- A reason to spec more for AA. First, it might help attract more people to play CV. Second now the team needs to rely on their strong AA ships to defend each other or defend themselves. BBs wandering of alone can finaly be hold responsible and cant cry about the CV not providing AA. A step towards Teamwork and hopefully a learning experience for bad BBs, because they cant blame the CV.

At the same time AA needs an overhaul on many ships (BBs with too much AA, Cruisers with not enough AA).

 

- Good CV players wont lose anything. I think a point i need to bring up in order to not get marked as a CV hater. Fighters do what? Give you air superiority over the enemy CV. They dont help u with killing ships. While i do understand, they are used for spotting then, now u would need to use your Bombers if u want to permaspot a DD, so u can decide if u rather do that, or go to get new ammo. A Good CV player will know when which scenario is best for his team.

 

- +/-1 MM for CVs, its a win-win for everyone. CVs 2 tiers down or up is stupid on both ends.

 

- US CVs need tighter droppattern for Bombs to make them more viable (Maybe a bit like GZ droppattern, but not like a perfect "o" so u need to strike from the front or back).

The roles i see for US CVs would be more reliant on DBs, whilest the IJN CVs are more Torpedo based. Amount of Squadrons and planes within them would need to be tested first. Id suggest 1 TB/3 DB for US CVs on higher tiers and IJN maybe 2 TB/1 DB.

 

- Give all CVs Def AA to prevent them from dropping each other, because reason.

 

- Premium CVs can have stuff like AP bombs to make them different from the silver ships.

 

Not sure if i remembered all the points i was thinking about, but i think theres a lot of them.

 

TL;DR 

Dont balance CVs against each other, make the other ships balance themselves around CVs.

New players can finaly learn CVs.

Same time some CVs need rework and Buffs, while OP Saipan gets a kick in the nuts without being nerfed.

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[DC_DK]
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Would be so much easier just to remove CV's from the game all together... CV gameplay differs so much from the rest of the ship classes that they deserve their own game IMHO

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Some good ideas :cap_like:

Only thing I don't approve of:

7 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

- US CVs need tighter droppattern for Bombs to make them more viable

Honestly, no. US Bombers are very strong as they are now, making the drop even tighter would mean to be able to oneshot every DD with one or two squads.

Each bomb has an alpha damage of 10,800! (Of course they do less damage because they rarely hit citadels, but it's still very high)

a8d7092a1f.png -> 2270 avg damage per bomb hit -> 2 squads with tighter drop = one dead DD

This is from one of my last Essex matches. Add 90k fire damage and you get the total damage my dive bombers did that match.

Anything more would be OP :cap_haloween:

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Can't agree with removing fighters for lower tiers, even if WG were to restore Manual Drops for everyone.

 

It wouldn't solve anything as someone reaching higher tiers would just get butchered by fighter strafes anyway. 

 

I've started playing a lot of CV and Fighters are an integral part of the game. 

 

Maybe +/- 1 MM for CVs would be good and so would Defensive Fire for all as I can't stand scrubs who try and snipe me although I enjoy killing those that try. Sniping is arguably valid anyway although I never do it in any game, I prefer to strangle the enemy via air dominance, you could argue that's just as bad...

 

WG could just refund all Saipan players with cash (I'm not accepting doubloons personally unless its more than what I paid for the ship) and completely remove it from the game as it is a bull$hit carrier, the multi strafe dance is the most broken thing ever especially with so much ammo. It makes you wonder if strange things are in the water or air in St Petersburg.

 

People just need to learn how to play CVs and WG needs to assist them in doing so with proper tutorials. There are community based ones, the best of which is Farra's guides but with respect to him the videos he releases are way too long. No one has a day of their lives to watch CV tutorial videos. He could cover the same ground in about 25% of the time IMO. 

 

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1 minute ago, Negativvv said:

Can't agree with removing fighters for lower tiers, even if WG were to restore Manual Drops for everyone.

 

It wouldn't solve anything as someone reaching higher tiers would just get butchered by fighter strafes anyway. 

 

I think, he means, remove figher planes completly from the game, not only on low tier.

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Just now, ForlornSailor said:

 

I think, he means, remove figher planes completly from the game, not only on low tier.

 

If that's so then it's a huge NO. CV games would just de-generate into who can rearm and bomb targets the fastest with little tactical consideration other than how close to park your floating airfield and what enemies has had their AA stripped via HE.

 

Strike only CVs are idiotic, you're essentially halving the complexity of CVs to the point of making them a joke class. I'd even choose some potato suggestion that fighters should be allowed to strafe ships rather than remove them all together. 

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1 minute ago, Negativvv said:

I'd even choose some potato suggestion that fighters should be allowed to strafe ships rather than remove them all together. 

 

Ohboyherewego.avi

 

What if fighters had an alt ability where they could pick up an allied CL or DD and carry them across the map? Obviously if the fighters get shot down you lose the ship but the mobility increase...

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Just now, Caughtintherain said:

 

Ohboyherewego.avi

 

What if fighters had an alt ability where they could pick up an allied CL or DD and carry them across the map? Obviously if the fighters get shot down you lose the ship but the mobility increase...

There was a suggestion awhile back that fighters should be allowed to machine gun ships to knock out AA or suppress them.

 

It's a silly suggestion, the same as removing fighters all together IMO. Apologies to the OP. 

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@Commander_Cornflakes

Hmm good point, didnt think about that. Might be the problem that im only at T7 with US CVs and lets face it, atleast on the lower tiers the Bombs are pretty bad imo. Even a perfect manual drop can get u only 1-2 hits. I thought it about a way to get them a bit closer to the IJN CVs, because they are usually the better ones, while not making them similiar to each other.

 

@Negativvv

Nope, i meant removing Fighter planes alltogether. Basicly they are the tool to shutdown the enemy CV which i think shouldnt be like that. CVs are the class with the highest influence, so let them both have it. Or lets say, let them both have the CHANCE to have that impact.

One thing i thought about maybe get a "Spotter plane" with limited Duration for spotting ships. At the same time remove Torp spotting for DBs and TBs.

Many people cant even learnt to play BBs, which are the easiest to play. Yet they are "allowed" to play CVs too while accomplishing nothing for their team. Tutorials and WG? That was a joke right? :Smile_teethhappy:

 

2 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

If that's so then it's a huge NO. CV games would just de-generate into who can rearm and bomb targets the fastest with little tactical consideration other than how close to park your floating airfield and what enemies has had their AA stripped via HE.

 

That would only be a rebalacing issue on the other ships (HE impact on HE modules, have been talking about that since BBs spamming HE became an issue). Its a very complex thing where "only remove fighters and its done" definetely wouldnt work.

Also as i mentioned in the first post, speccing for AA would need to be mandatory, not a "maybe i do it for the couple of CVs i see in 10 matches" thing. So in theory u would still pick the targets wandering alone or wait for the right moment to strike. It encourages Teamwork imo, which we are lacking more and more.

 

6 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

Strike only CVs are idiotic, you're essentially halving the complexity of CVs to the point of making them a joke class. I'd even choose some potato suggestion that fighters should be allowed to strafe ships rather than remove them all together. 

 

Im always under the impression that AS CVs are idiotic. Whatfor do u play the game then? U play to shut down the class which is only in the game because u yourself plays it.  At the same time u have very little impact on dealing damage yourself.

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8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

 

 

Im always under the impression that AS CVs are idiotic. Whatfor do u play the game then? U play to shut down the class which is only in the game because u yourself plays it.  At the same time u have very little impact on dealing damage yourself.

 

AS is just as bad, WG shouldn't give out deck choices and encourage everyone to have some sort of balanced deck.

 

I only play USN AS because nothing else is tactically viable although playing USN CVs other than Prem ones is a lost cause in itself...

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The problem with CV's is that most of the player base does not know how to play against them, 

The team that shows a modicum of team play and sticks in tight groups for mutual aa support will 9 times out of 10 beat the team that does the normal scatter no matter the skill of the CV players,

A CV in the game, especially when its mid or high tier nessecitates a change in playstyle to one that depends upon teamwork and communication, 

unfortunatly much of the player base cannot grasp this, and prefers to see CV;s as overpowered 

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4 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

I only play USN AS because nothing else is tactically viable although playing USN CVs other than Prem ones is a lost cause in itself...

 

This is really one of the HUGE problems with CVs. And the cause of much anger. Whenever I see a US CV on my team and i see a IJN or premium on the other, I feel sick already. Shouldnt really be that way.

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It is however a reasonably likely thing. Which would explain why they're testing the graf zep with all strike even though people are saying all strike is rubbish against balanced/AS.

 

Fighter play is a big part of current CV since with fighters you can lock the enemy CV out of doing anything. Its very rare (for me at least) to get a close game with CV against enemy CV - either I wipe the floor with them, or I land 1 bomb hit.

That means I swing between feelsbadman and IwishIneverbotheredpressingbattle.

Now I quite like the intricacy of fighter play, baiting strafes etc but its probably off putting for a lot of players.

I also remember in CBT when the meta was all strike (since there was no strafe, and it wasnt even guaranteed you'd face a carrier) - carriers were very popular then, and cruisers were to. Taking AA was the default as well.

 

It would also explain the boost in def AA for US/RU DD - to see how well these are at holding their own without needing fighters

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2 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

There was a suggestion awhile back that fighters should be allowed to machine gun ships to knock out AA or suppress them.

 

It's a silly suggestion, the same as removing fighters all together IMO. Apologies to the OP. 

 

Oh I was just thinking of the most potato suggestion I could. I'd love to see carrier planes carrying carriers as an April Fool's update though.

 

To get back on topic, an easy way to mitigate the whole CV sealclubbing thing is to rebalance AA. Make it so that AA specced tier 4 & 5 ships can actually shoot down a plane. I remember a while back sitting under a pair of bomber squads that the CV player forgot about in a Danae. The Danae has the best rated AA of any tier 4 cruiser, I think this was before the carrier rework so I was playing the British line specifically for an AA role, as a newb I naturally assumed that I would be effective against enemy aircraft. I was not. It took a solid 6-7 minutes to shoot down both squads. There's no good reason for a tier 4 cruiser to suck so hard against tier 4 planes.

 

CVs stomp at lower level if they get air superiority because no ship can effectively put up AA defences. This makes sealclubbing in CVs more effective at lower levels as you can torp literally everything without losing a plane if you manage to take down the enemy CV's fighters with a good strafe. Find a way to give tiers 4 and 5 effective ways of defending themselves against enemy planes in case their CV gets wiped and the ability to roflstomp sealclub in a low tier cruiser is taken away, and so is the incentive. Just give the lower tiers Defensive Fire.

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1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Remove Fighters from CV.

 

I can see the benefits but it would degenerate CV play into a pure damage race, which is stupid in its own way. Fighters add another layer and skill to it that's desperately needed, they shouldn't be removed. Perhaps fighter mechanics should be looked at but imo they're already fairly okay.

What we do need are dedicated tutorials that teach new players what their ship can actually do and what should be avoided (applies to all ship classes). For CVs this includes teaching what targets they should pick, positioning, how to manual drop and perhaps most importantly how and when to strafe as well as how to recognize the enemy is lining up for a strafe and subsequently how to dodge them.

Then again considering WG taught new players in the KGV armada video that Expert Rear Gunner is a skill you need playing her I shudder to think what kind of tutorial they're gonna come up with.

 

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

US CVs need tighter droppattern for Bombs to make them more viable

 

I wouldn't make it straight up tighter but instead make DB use a bit more skill based instead of relying purely on RNG. Simply make it so that the earlier you give a DB squad the drop command the tighter the spread will be (with the minimum spread being approx. as big as current IJN DB manual drop is now and maximum spread almost as big as auto-drop). This would punish straight lining or stationary ships the most while allowing it to be dodged (or at least damage to be mitigated) by maneuvering.

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11 minutes ago, Caughtintherain said:

There's no good reason for a tier 4 cruiser to suck so hard against tier 4 planes.

 

Oh in the current meta there is. CVs dont have a lot refill on planes + there are fighters around to shoot the few down. If the other ships around would shoot down the few CV strike planes - CV is meaningless.

 

11 minutes ago, Caughtintherain said:

CVs stomp at lower level if they get air superiority because no ship can effectively put up AA defences. This makes sealclubbing in CVs more effective at lower levels as you can torp literally everything without losing a plane

 

You are ofc right on this one.

 

11 minutes ago, Caughtintherain said:

Find a way to give tiers 4 and 5 effective ways of defending themselves against enemy planes in case their CV gets wiped

 

Looking from this point - it would be a reasonable tactic to remove fighters. You can raise AA on cruisers. It doesnt matter how good or bad your own CV is, it always comes down to ship vs CV and the skill of the player.

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6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Simply make it so that the earlier you give a DB squad the drop command the tighter the spread will be

 

This actually sounds awesome. Reward players that take a risk guessing the ship movement AND give the targeted ship more chances to evade. win-win. these are the kinda ideas im looking for in changing CV-play.

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52 minutes ago, hgbn_dk said:

Would be so much easier just to remove CV's from the game all together... CV gameplay differs so much from the rest of the ship classes that they deserve their own game IMHO

 

Sure, and then you just have to rebalance every other ship, taking away one possibility of variety from what they have, remove float planes.. sure, "easy".  :cap_haloween:

 

And of course you could edit your comment and replace CV with any other ship class and it'd make as much sense.

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9 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Oh in the current meta there is. CVs dont have a lot refill on planes + there are fighters around to shoot the few down. If the other ships around would shoot down the few CV strike planes - CV is meaningless.

 

My bad, I didn't play CV past the Independence and free XP'd past the Bogue because of the alt drop issues, I couldn't get the hang of alt dropping so I dropped the CV line, I didn't realise that the plane count was substantially increased at higher tiers. With what you've said I'd guess that the tier 4 & 5 AA is geared towards letting CV players learn to handle their planes, protecting them from the enemy fighters while getting drops in without complicating things by having them avoid fleet based AA too, then they learn to avoid fleet based AA later. The low plane number facilitates this by making sure that a CV can gain dominance within a reasonable time frame, and if both CVs knock out a reasonable number of enemy bombers the game doesn't just turn in to CV vs CV.

 

I suppose we could buff the number of planes at lower tiers to compensate, but then new CV players will have a lot to learn all at once.

 

Alternatively we make AA spec a much more important role we could rebalance AA across the board, give Russian and British cruisers stronger AA at lower tiers and keep it the same at higher tiers, nerf AA for everything else at higher tiers but keep it the same at lower tiers. CVs become viable at high levels, Russian and British cruisers have a more prominent fleet defence role, and lower tiers would benefit from having a couple of ships that can actually shoot down a plane!

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No other class of ships can shut down a entire match with a good player behind the CV... Perma spotting DD's removing the other team CV's aircrafts and strike with more or less impunity...

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5 minutes ago, hgbn_dk said:

No other class of ships can shut down a entire match with a good player behind the CV... Perma spotting DD's removing the other team CV's aircrafts and strike with more or less impunity...

 

CVs "can" but it isn't that easy unless the opposition is a complete potato. Even then it's not an assured win as your own team simply won't capitalise on it... And yes I've been there many times. 

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Removing fighters is ridiculous, plain and simple. Air superiority means the ability to permaspot DDs and their torps as well as - to lesser extent (or maybe to lesser effect) - other ships. Removing fighters from the game essentially means that CV's ability to create such a tremendous change in the gameplay (one that neuters DDs and removes enemy's abilty to surprise allies) nobody needs to be won. Currently CVs are so influential in no small part because they're the ultimate scouts, but they have to fight for it - strike planes that scout can be chased away by enemy fighters, scouting fighters are also in danger AND by scouting they are visible, clearly showing where the CV can intervene to intercept a strike and where it's not possible.

You want to throw it all down the drain, OP. You want effective air superiority to be something that just lays on the floor and needs to be picked up (and can be picked up by both sides simultaneously) leading to a situation where the WG's bad dreams about CV presence in CB comes true: everything is spotted. DDs can't run and can't hide. Nobody can use an island to break the line of sight unless the opposing CV just doesn't care about scouting at all...

No. Sorry. While striking power could probably be balanced against strike power, reconnaissance shouldn't be given for free. If anything, I'd advise re-evaluation of all US strike decks so that there is no such thing as a CV going to battle with no fighters.

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7 minutes ago, hgbn_dk said:

No other class of ships can shut down a entire match with a good player behind the CV... Perma spotting DD's removing the other team CV's aircrafts and strike with more or less impunity...

 

Utter bollocks.

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1 minute ago, AgarwaenME said:

 

Utter bollocks.

Is it???? I'm not convinced

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Just now, hgbn_dk said:

Is it???? I'm not convinced

 

And why are you convinced you are right, do you have anything but your personal bias as proof?

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