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MortenTardo

So WG. Still no fix for BB AP against DDs.

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57 minutes ago, Ferry_25 said:

also when a DD gets one shot on mid - long ranges he/ she misplayed

 

Why don't you just say the DD was overconfident?

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1 hour ago, Ferry_25 said:

I think its defendable to seriously damage or one shot a ship with the amount of ammo worth around or above it's own weight. Angled gives more opportunity for AP shells to fuse.

also when a DD gets one shot on mid - long ranges he/ she misplayed (apart from the 1 in 1000 lucky RNG shots). Either the DD was slowing down to smokepewepew while spotted or it was smokepewpewing and got radared. IMO in both cases it's good and deserved riddance. A good maneuvering DD I find near impossible to hit hard on those ranges.

 

Or you just define the DDs you hit as having misplayed, and those you miss as playing well.

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mariouus   
10 hours ago, Teob_VG said:

 

What is the source for this?

 

I am asking because just looking at stats on wows numbers or warship today, it would seem like there are roughly equal numbers of DDs and Cruisers at t10. 

I used maplesyrup site. What, for last week, showed about 64k of battles on both tier X BBs and DDs.

 

At the same time, statistic on different sites are rather different. So I might be using a wrong site.

 

 

 

 

 

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Drake847   

@Teob_VG . I said they work on the" double pen with one Shell bug" with high priority . Nothing else maybe you understood me wrong or i wrote some wordsalad . And in this Topic i mentioned we had no word of normal penetrations . We talked about one Shell doing 2x 33% max dmg instead of the normal 33% for one pen .In the topic i mentioned . 

And from all i saw till now ( from pics ,replays and by myself ) it mostly happens with German BBs against German DDs .  One Shell AP is doing akward dmg numbers . Dunno if it happens with other BBs as well . Or if it is just the "false flag bug".

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Drake847   

Ferry i  doubt that one salvo from a BBs equals to the same weight as a Destroyer . This is not a Simulator this is a arcade shooter with ship skins .Dont mix real life Infos with what happens in this game . Even the Stats in the ships Infos in game are the Real life stats but not what realy happens in the game . Torps with 65 knots dont need 45s for 6 km they need more time  . Nor is the flight time of the BB Shells the same written in the ship info .

Bismarck Shell weight 800kg times 8 is 6400kg= 6.4ts .

Z-23 weight 3542-3694ts and this is his  displacement  in combat .Standard is 2603-2657.

So where the hell is one salvo from a Bismarck in RL the same weight like say this z-23 ?

 

Your so called small destroyers are 130meters Long . Go out one the Street and take a look how far this is  and now take a look at the Diameter of a BB Shell . 130meters compared to 38cm . OMFG

Sorry to say but get your math skills and your Infos right .

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Ferry_25   

OK it seems I've created controversy here (good: I like good debates!). Like I said: I totally agree there is a BB overpop problem. I just don't think removing the pen hits to DD's will solve this problem. Why? the yolo rush I already mentioned. Another is the Russian DD line. The "mach 5 edge of reach pewpewers" like Khaba. Already it's neigh impossible to get rid of when having it's attention. That bloody ship is moving so fast I actually have to zoom out on my aim a bit in order to give it some lead, thus decreasing my accuracy even more. If I don't delete it in a few salvo's it'll chip and burn me down. It's also well armored and has good HP pool. And the pen dmg isn't that common in the first place. So I need that 1 or 2 pens in order to finish it off. I think there is balance for this issue already. Now I have the feeling of a 50-50 chance who will prevail in this encounter, as in the yolo rush. When performed well there is a good chance the DD will get away from it. using WASD and keeping as slim profile as possible and only open up at the last possible moment for the drop. Yes, the BB can still delete you when a AP shell finds it's way through the nose and detonates. Sounds logical to me.

 

No my proposal (and I'm wandering off topic now, I know) is actually a question. The cruisers are mentioned as the "jack of all trades." How is it that cruisers aren't the dominant shiptypes in numbers in the matches? As I see it they are a good counter for DD's, when playing together they can obliterate BB's (crossfire from different angles at longer range HE spam when angled, AP when opened). They can counter each other ( I can hardly remember CA-CA fights which were plain boring) and they had the role of AA platforms. I'm disregarding the "realism argument" and "it will not happen on premiums" for this one. I suggest the following changes. Nerf the AA capabilities for BB's, strip the DD's and BB's from sonar and radar. Leave spotter/ fighters on BB"s and def AA (lower basic AA rating but something to defend for a massive strike). Give the cruisers the AA dominance role back. Remove citadels from cruisers and undo some of the torp nerfs on DD's. Previously we had the same overpop problem with DD's because of the torpedo soup. Now the nerfs overshot it's purpose. Increase the accuracy on BB's guns. This might blow some keyboard but let me explain. I stole this suggestion from the Forum. One of the issues with cruisers is the longrange snipe in the opening phase. You can dodge like a lunatic when being targeted by a BB but there's always that "Angeline Jolie shell" which seems to miraculously curve into your citadel, bouncing from the sea floor rendering you with 500hp for the rest of the match in the second minute). If a salvo is vastly more accurate the dodging start to make sense: either the whole volley will miss or you'll be punished if you don't dodge. That way the "incoming" captain perk is finally starting to make sense. Now it's "detected, oh I'll start my RNG prayer while hitting my WASD's. Because that's my enemy now." I honestly think this will bring back more balance as it was intended in the first place. Leaving open only 1 problem for which I can't find a solution: noob players who refuse to learn. But I think no buff/ nerf/ change/ ban or what else will tackle that one. Furthermore my suggestion will give abled players more ability to carry the noobs.

 

So back to topic: that's why I think making DD's "invulnerable" for BB AP shells will solve the main problem of BB overpop. Heck I think it'll even promote the other problem of camping even more. In my proposal BB camping will be severely punished when playing properly: isolated either the CV will delete it, 2 or 3 cruisers working together will remove it without being too afraid of getting luck one shot because they have no citadels and the BB when properly play can still delete a cruiser with a good aimed and timed salvo. And DD's can pickup their role with a decent torpedo threat. Now I'm not saying my suggestion would solve all problems of course. I am only trying to help make this game even more wonderful to play so we can all have a good time.

 

Shoot!! Wall of text again... tl:dr: I disagree with the proposal and suggestion other solutions. IMO the cruisers should dominate the matches in numbers.

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On 27-10-2017 at 11:04 AM, Drake847 said:

The only thing that is wrong with BB AP against DDs is the "double pen bug for one shell". Anything else is working as intended as far Sub_Octavian said some Months ago they work on this "strange double pen dmg from one penetration".

 

I probaly still got the thread in my Profile log somewhere . So if one Shell pens and does  exactly the double amount of 33% of max dmg + the overpen dmg it can be very annoying for DDs .

 

Even the "solution " only overpens hurts if you get 6 -12 of them at once .Probaly we then have the Problem that one Shell can overpen more then just once .

Isn't it the shell entering the ship one side, and leaving through the other side? Since it doesn't detonate, the shell keeps traveling.

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Capra76   
51 minutes ago, Lieut_Gruber said:

Isn't it the shell entering the ship one side, and leaving through the other side? Since it doesn't detonate, the shell keeps traveling.

 

That would be an overpen, the double pen bug is where the shell detonates inside the ship but records penetration damage against two different zones, i.e. total damage = 2/3 of theoretical max.

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Capra76   
17 hours ago, mariouus said:

Yes, it is more or less ridiculous. If we are talking about top-tier. Then on weekly statistics BBs and DDs are both most played ship classes. So there is a distinct lack of sufficient number of Cruisers. So demanding a survivability buff on a ship class whose population is too high

 

T10 is an outlier, and even that is driven by one ship (Shima), Gearing trails behind all T10 BB, all the other DD are in the weeds.

 

The T9 DD population is still fairly healthy, at least for IJN/USN, below that they're an endangered species, Bismarck alone having as many games as all T8 DD combined, or for that matter the entire KM DD line combined, and Tirpitz (a premium ffs) has (near enough) as many games as the entire RU line combined.

 

Outside T9/10 this is becoming a major problem, there just aren't enough DD to ensure fairly balanced games, so win/loss frequently comes down to either 2 v 1 DD or whichever side has the DD player that isn't a potato.

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mariouus   
37 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Outside T9/10 this is becoming a major problem, there just aren't enough DD to ensure fairly balanced games, so win/loss frequently comes down to either 2 v 1 DD or whichever side has the DD player that isn't a potato

Arter the Gangut special is over, mid-tier DD population lookes more-or-less healthy. Problem seemes to be, just like with cruisers, in tier.8.

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lup3s   
2 hours ago, Ferry_25 said:

Why? the yolo rush I already mentioned.

 

What tier are you playing?

 

I hardly ever see T9-T10 DDs "yolo rush".

 

And if they do, they die anyway before they can effectively do anything.

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Capra76   
23 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Arter the Gangut special is over, mid-tier DD population lookes more-or-less healthy. Problem seemes to be, just like with cruisers, in tier.8.

 

DD population by tier for selected weeks:

 

tier 26-08-2017 16-09-2017 21-10-2017
5 20.9% 18.0% 22.1%
6 16.9% 16.3% 20.4%
7 16.8% 16.6% 21.5%
8 14.1% 16.6% 19.2%

 

EU server, source: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html

 

That looks anything but healthy to me, best case is about 2.5 DD/game, worst case is under two, which as I mentioned earlier isn't enough to ensure fair matchmaking.

 

Cruiser numbers are roughly 28% (T5), 37% (T6), 33% (T7), 30% (T8), fairly stable for the last month or so.

 

If anything the Gangut special seems to have dragged a few more DD into the game.

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1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

 

DD population by tier for selected weeks:

 

tier 26-08-2017 16-09-2017 21-10-2017
5 20.9% 18.0% 22.1%
6 16.9% 16.3% 20.4%
7 16.8% 16.6% 21.5%
8 14.1% 16.6% 19.2%

 

EU server, source: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html

 

That looks anything but healthy to me, best case is about 2.5 DD/game, worst case is under two, which as I mentioned earlier isn't enough to ensure fair matchmaking.

 

Cruiser numbers are roughly 28% (T5), 37% (T6), 33% (T7), 30% (T8), fairly stable for the last month or so.

 

If anything the Gangut special seems to have dragged a few more DD into the game.

 

Yea I hid my DDs until the Gangut plague was over that thing is a total DD killer those 305mm don't over pen and you can be virtually deleted in 1 salvo , In fact I very rarely get sunk by CA/CLs now its always BBs or other DDs sad considering that's a CA/CLs job .

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mariouus   
3 hours ago, Capra76 said:

 

That looks anything but healthy to me, best case is about 2.5 DD/game, worst case is under two, which as I mentioned earlier isn't enough to ensure fair matchmaking.

Last week, during the hight of Gangut Mission, saw very little amount of DDs.This week, on those two days I played DD numbers where rather decent. Averagind 3 per side.Thats why I sayed "looks healthy"

 

At the same time, this might just be impression, caused by old MM issue. In other words, there is a high probability, that when I was getting 3-4 DDs per side, somebody else was not getting any.

 

 

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Blixies   

18 km salvo from Missouri:

zJK2keZ.png

It was so extraordinary that I had to stop playing for a few hours just to absorb the sheer amount of fun and engaging gameplaytm that Missouri was able to send my way in just one volley!

10/10, would like to get hit again.

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lup3s   

and it's not only BB AP ... look at what AP bombs can do - and they don't even have to hit you !

:Smile-angry::Smile-angry::Smile-angry::Smile-angry:

 

fHhpD7d.jpg

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On 1.11.2017 at 6:39 PM, lup3s said:

and it's not only BB AP ... look at what AP bombs can do - and they don't even have to hit you !

 

 

 

 

Doesn't look that more like the most beloved game mechanic triggered by HE-Bombs? 

 

 

udaloipen.jpg.1aedc9db4f9d11a743d2967509608341.jpg

 

I didn't fully understand how such a number is possible.

 

I guess he broke one of my turrets on my Udaloi permanently with that hit...

 

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I nuked a full hp Z52 in my Monty on CB yesterday. AP salvo. It basically broke their team as the other DD was a Shima running away. 

 

There were much laughs on the TS server...

 

Working as intended WG :cap_cool:

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lup3s   
36 minutes ago, Rick_Hunter said:

 

Doesn't look that more like the most beloved game mechanic triggered by HE-Bombs? 

 

 

udaloipen.jpg.1aedc9db4f9d11a743d2967509608341.jpg

 

I didn't fully understand how such a number is possible.

 

I guess he broke one of my turrets on my Udaloi permanently with that hit...

 

 

Not HE - I watched the battle afterwards for quite a while and never saw him starting any fires with his bombers, and doing damage consistent to what AP bombs can do.

 

That number is idd quite odd... looks like double pen hit? :Smile_facepalm:

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On 2017. 11. 01. at 6:39 PM, lup3s said:

and it's not only BB AP ... look at what AP bombs can do - and they don't even have to hit you !

:Smile-angry::Smile-angry::Smile-angry::Smile-angry:

 

 

True. Even my Pensacola causes nightmares to DDs with a good AP volley. I had a game where I nuked a DD by AP in a second. Poor guy turned and the shells just cut her up like butter. Those sailors didn't suffer.

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48 minutes ago, SeeteufeI said:

Chill, they just need more data.

 

They already stated they have enough data, but their solution had a side-effect of giving BBs guaranteed full pens from every angle on cruisers.

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On 10/27/2017 at 10:17 PM, Ferry_25 said:

I think its defendable to seriously damage or one shot a ship with the amount of ammo worth around or above it's own weight. Angled gives more opportunity for AP shells to fuse.

also when a DD gets one shot on mid - long ranges he/ she misplayed (apart from the 1 in 1000 lucky RNG shots). Either the DD was slowing down to smokepewepew while spotted or it was smokepewpewing and got radared. IMO in both cases it's good and deserved riddance. A good maneuvering DD I find near impossible to hit hard on those ranges.

 In real life yes one shotting a target could and did happen.

The problem is this is a game not a simulation, so the game has to offer fair mechanics across all classes. 

But I agree a well played DD is an absolute bugger to hit at range, most of my hits on DD's at range are either down to luck / dispersion, or the fact that the DD is moving in a very predictable way which means you know which way he is going to wiggle.

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Terendir   
On 25.10.2017 at 10:32 AM, ghostbuster_ said:

those lol pens on DDs should be changed. i do agree with that. but saying "BBs are hard counters to DDs" is just funny. Let me know how you counter a gearing or shima in 1vs1 with any of your tier 10 BBs

As Kurfürst owner, I really had to laugh reading this.

I take a 1v1 against a DD in my Kurfürst any time. Hydro, quick turrets, quick reload, strong secondaries, 2 planes who can spot while hydro is recharging and good rudder shift time (for such a huge ship, it really is), make this ship one of the best DD hunters at T10. On top of that, i could even use the dirty radio position finding skill (ugh).

The only BBs a DD has even decent chances to beat in a 1v1, are the non-germans.

But even then you wont sink a well playing BB in time as it caps.

On the other hand, a Zao is one of the most annoying enemys to face 1v1 as Kurfürst - and far more dangerous than any DD. Angling Zao's are almost invincible against the low-penetration german AP, and switching to HE wont help much either since its too weak - and the Zao will burn me faster than vice versa.
Just shows how broken the balance is at the moment. Some BBs counter DDs, some CAs counter BBs, just the DDs seem to be out of place, they often just counter each other.

In fact, DDs are countered by literally everything at the moment.

If they are spotted, its GG for them most of the time, no matter what distance, thanks to YOLO-AP-Penetrations.

 

Quote

Remove citadels from cruisers

Sorry but this is the completely wrong way to go with WoWs.

Citadels are a core mechanic of the gameplay in WoWs and they are important to punish bad positioning (like overextending too deep or showing broadside to serval BBs). Removing that will make the cruisers the new BBs in terms of noob-friendlieness. If dumb cruiser play is not punished anymore, all these potatoes will switch to cruisers, since they will be the allrounders then - and with the HE-spam mechanic, it will be easier for these average fruits to farm damage. You will just move the issue from one class to another. And since the average BBs with their massive HP pools are already hiding, i can predict 100%, that average cruiser players will still hide - even without citadels.

Every skiled cruiser player knows, if he gets insta deleted (from ~100% to 0% health) without detonation, he has to blame himself.

I mean: just watch the minimap on a everyday-random-match: you can see almost all early-dying CAs in similiar positions when they are dead: Showing broadside like a moron to one or even multiple BBs, or being totally out of position; mostly way too deep at the front.

The biggest issue is that they simply are too many BBs. That you have to play way to passive as cruiser to do your actual job as DD-supporter. You can handle one or two camping enemy BBs with WASD, but if there are 5 and they all are at differenc locations - angling and dodging on medium distance becomes impossible. Result: You hide behind cover, or you go on long distance to be only targetable by one or max two enemy BBs.

On the late game phase, when only one or two enemy BBs are still alive, you can play way more aggressive as cruiser. You can outplay them via DPS, WASD.exe and superior stealth. You also can out-cap the enemy team by reaching the caps faster thanks to higher speed.

No - Cruisers need no buff, epsecially not a noobfriendly one. Cruisers simply need more chances to play their strengths (that they already have), either via map design (*caugh* Tears of the Desert *caugh*) or via less BBs / match. Every other balance change will just move the problems around, without fixing the core issue.

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3 hours ago, Terendir said:

As Kurfürst owner, I really had to laugh reading this.

I take a 1v1 against a DD in my Kurfürst any time. Hydro, quick turrets, quick reload, strong secondaries, 2 planes who can spot while hydro is recharging and good rudder shift time (for such a huge ship, it really is), make this ship one of the best DD hunters at T10. On top of that, i could even use the dirty radio position finding skill (ugh).

The only BBs a DD has even decent chances to beat in a 1v1, are the non-germans.

But even then you wont sink a well playing BB in time as it caps.

On the other hand, a Zao is one of the most annoying enemys to face 1v1 as Kurfürst - and far more dangerous than any DD. Angling Zao's are almost invincible against the low-penetration german AP, and switching to HE wont help much either since its too weak - and the Zao will burn me faster than vice versa.
Just shows how broken the balance is at the moment. Some BBs counter DDs, some CAs counter BBs, just the DDs seem to be out of place, they often just counter each other.

In fact, DDs are countered by literally everything at the moment.

If they are spotted, its GG for them most of the time, no matter what distance, thanks to YOLO-AP-Penetrations.

 

 

take any skill you want in GK. if you face a decent DD player, he is gonna laugh at you.  so dont laugh until you face a proper DD. besides im also against lol pens to DDs...

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