RIP Dunkerque, Guilio Cesare is better and tier lower

[Jvd2000]

I have played the Dunkerque for some time and it has been meh. Good games, bad games all depends much on the RNG of the guns.

 

Now we have the Guilio Cesare, one tier lower: much better working guns (you actualy hit something (GC 1.9 sigma vs 1.5 sigma of the dunk) that are only slightly smaller in calibre), same speed, much better concealment, comparable aa and secondaries (with GC being one tier lower that is). Better manouverability...

 

GC just humiliates the Dunk on all aspects outside pure HP and a bit of range of the main guns. And "the all guns in front bonus"" is only a bonus if the Dunk driver knows you should not bow tank with this ship.

 

Can we just improve the Sigma on the Dunk a bit so that this ship atleast rewards good aiming? Does not have to be soviet railgun accuracy but maybe 1.7 or 1.8?

[Centurion_1711]

Haven't got the Dunkerque, I guess the low numbers I see played speak volumes. The sigma buff might be good for it, as secondaries are at best situational (unless it's a German BB). However, wasn't the Dunkerque known to be a bit inaccurate in real life? I thought the four-gun turrets mounted the barrels too close together and so each affected the next one along. I know WoWs is a game and so things are tweaked, but I wonder if this is the thinking behind its poor sigma rating.

If WG don't want to change the sigma, they could always cut down the max dispersion. Whatever they do, though, I do hope they don't just buff the HE. RN BB's have convinced everyone to fire nothing but HE, so it is a mess right now (I mean, who doesn't love those citadel hits that delete ships instantly? Much better than RNG fires)

[Merlin851526]

I'm tempted to get the GC. But I must agree the Dunkerque is awful simply awful......however I don't mind playing her from time as if you get a good game it's a nice surprise. I'm using her to train captains for my French cruisers obviously but apart from that she's a lol ship no doubt about it. 

[Aragathor]

What the Dunkek needs is just some tweaking, and not a massive buff. A slightly better sigma, since the 1.7 is brutal, even 1.8 would change a lot. And less overpens on cruisers at below 10km, as overpening broadside every cruiser is a thing only in this ship.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Dunker is faster and actually has armour. 8 forward facing guns is a pretty big advantage too... 

[fgibert]

1 hour ago, Negativvv said:

Dunker is faster and actually has armour. 8 forward facing guns is a pretty big advantage too... 

This.

 

Plus Dunkerque is heavily based on your ability to position yourself correctly and keep the guns singing. It punishes you hard if you're lacking in this department. GC looks much more beginner-friendly in that regard.

I admit that on paper and based on LWM's review in the NA forum, GC looks like a better ship tier for tier. I would definitely not want to play GC in a 1v1 against Dunkerque though.

And yes Dunkerque could use a slight buff to sigma, some games are bloody frustrating.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I think Dunkerque needs a bit of defending here.

 

Don't underestimate 29.5 knots of the Dunker vs the 27 knots of the GC. On BBs extra speed goes a long way. You can run, you can push, you can change flanks all that much quicker... 

 

The guns are slightly derpy but it's no big deal when you fire them at 12km or so, plus they have pretty high velocity so feel easy to aim. 

 

But again 2x4 front facing turrets is a very powerful tool, you can do the just off bow in tanking that makes your ship pretty thick skinned but yet you have all 8 of your guns. A GC to fire all 10 exposes her to a significant amount of risk. 

 

The tactical flexibility of speed combined with turrets that can face an enemy almost 100% of the time regardless of your angle or changes of direction cannot be understated. 

 

Also just to put my money where my mouth is, this is two games I've just played.

 

A T8 game:

 

And a T6 one:

 

 

 

 

 

[Spellfire40]

Really is there a single T6 prem BB that dosent do better than Dunkirk? others than speed I dont really like her too much. One more BBs that is overall more balaced hardly makes a diference.

Anyway happy Italia gets a decent crewtrainer. Duca was just to low dps to really train up some decent captains.

[Drunken_Jedi]

I don't get all the dislike for Dunkerque, sure she can troll you with that sigma... but she's fast and can be surprisingly tanky so long as you angle right. She's a good looking ship too!

[piritskenyer]

I for one would prefer a .1 or .2 better sigma on dunkek, because I remember having games where I did really below-average damage because the guns just wouldn't behave. Sure, when they hit, they hit hard (also, a little bit of side angle on crusiers goes a long way to avoid overpens), but having games where none of your shots go where you want them to it's just way too unreliable to be played.

[Affeks]

An accuracy buff to Dunkerque is all it needs. Though Personally i want WG to give it Spood Beest or something gimmicky so it can actually go over 30 knots

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Actually the issue I think is that GC is in the top 3 of T6 or below BBs in terms of effective gun accuracy.

 

Only Nikolai and Warspite are comparable. 

 

Even after WG pre-release nerfed GC 1.0, the release version still has amazing accuracy. Pre nerf Koning was good but WG decided that accurate low tier BBs must be behind paywalls.

 

I know GC's stats doesn't suggest amazing accuracy but current average damage stats for her suggest she's pretty insane...

 

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/3765384944,Giulio-Cesare/

[Nechrom]

I'm not sure I would go so far as to claim that GC is straight up better than Dunkerque, but I do think GC is better for its tier compared to the Dunkerque.

 

Dunkerque has three main advantages outside of simple health advantage.

• Amazing AP performance which isn't topped until the USN 406mm (Colorado), IJN 410mm (Nagato) and KM 380mm (Gneisenau) shells.
• Much better survivability both from belt armor, citadel layout and 25mm bow/stern/deck armor instead of 19mm which the GC has.
• Gun placement allowing for 8 shell salvos in the position you will most likely want to be in most of the time, and a position the GC needs to be in most of the time due to the horrible belt armor and citadel layout.

Where she lacks the most is concealment and accuracy.

[Ysterpyp]

19 hours ago, Jvd2000 said:

 

Can we just improve the Sigma on the Dunk a bit so that this ship atleast rewards good aiming? Does not have to be soviet railgun accuracy but maybe 1.7 or 1.8?

Then they should buff mutsu slightly aswell , because 1.8 sigma with 8 guns with WW1 shells and terrible armor aint cutting it

[Exocet6951]

No matter how many fast battleships, stealthy battleships, or multipurpose battleships you put in the game, you'll never be able to match the Dunkerque's vast arsenal of tools at her disposal.

You can't be "better" than a ship so multipurpose that it can basically act like a cruiser when it's bottom tier, and a very tanky BB when top tier.
You can be more specialized, thus better in some points, but you can't just be overall better.

 

The same argument can be made for the Kongo.
You can add Konigs, Iron Dukes, Cesares, etc...but you'll never be downright "better" than a 30 knot ship with powerful guns, good armor (if you can handle it) and decent mobility thanks to the speed.

 

 

I don't think you can buff the Dunkek, even in accuracy simply because it might send it over the edge to blatant overperformance, especially with its powerful HE shells something I'm still persuaded steered WG into thinking it was an ok thing  to center an entire branch of BBs around.

And I say that as a Dunkek enthusiast.

[piritskenyer]

12 hours ago, Affeks said:

An accuracy buff to Dunkerque is all it needs. Though Personally i want WG to give it Spood Beest or something gimmicky so it can actually go over 30 knots

 

I always sail her with the spood flag, and she goes just over 30 kts 

[Affeks]

39 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

 

I always sail her with the spood flag, and she goes just over 30 kts 

Speed flag is not really worth on most BBs since they bleed speed fast and takes the whole weekend to get back up to speed haha...

 

[Exocet6951]

48 minutes ago, Affeks said:

Speed flag is not really worth on most BBs since they bleed speed fast and takes the whole weekend to get back up to speed haha...

 

 

Yeah but that sweet moment you outrun a (non-IJN) torpedo cruiser going for a suicide run...

 

 

 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

2 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

No matter how many fast battleships, stealthy battleships, or multipurpose battleships you put in the game, you'll never be able to match the Dunkerque's vast arsenal of tools at her disposal.

You can't be "better" than a ship so multipurpose that it can basically act like a cruiser when it's bottom tier, and a very tanky BB when top tier.
You can be more specialized, thus better in some points, but you can't just be overall better.

 

The same argument can be made for the Kongo.
You can add Konigs, Iron Dukes, Cesares, etc...but you'll never be downright "better" than a 30 knot ship with powerful guns, good armor (if you can handle it) and decent mobility thanks to the speed.

 

 

I don't think you can buff the Dunkek, even in accuracy simply because it might send it over the edge to blatant overperformance, especially with its powerful HE shells something I'm still persuaded steered WG into thinking it was an ok thing  to center an entire branch of BBs around.

And I say that as a Dunkek enthusiast.

 

It makes me excited for the Richelieu. It's the forward turrets that make the French configuration that much stronger than the rest at least in this game as you can really throw the ship around and have 100% firepower almost all the time. Everyone else either has to give broadside or lose the rear turrets.

[Jvd2000]

11 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

 

It makes me excited for the Richelieu. It's the forward turrets that make the French configuration that much stronger than the rest at least in this game as you can really throw the ship around and have 100% firepower almost all the time. Everyone else either has to give broadside or lose the rear turrets.

 

I wonder what the special “thing” will be on French BB’s. The Dunkek, beside her special config, has no special range of available modules etc. So maybe typical gun configuration for the higher tiers, good speed but a bit underwhelming aa?

[HystericalAccuracy]

4 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

...or lose the rear turrets.

yes.... and in one of my early games in Dunkerque i realized that changing direction while kiting leaves me without any guns to fire back  No rear turrets - no running allowed!

 

But when used properly, Dunk can be devastating - i had my best game in T7 MM, doing about 130k and taking two caps. Maybe i should take her out again... 

[Jvd2000]

Case if WG decides to do an incremental buff to the Dunk of 0,1 sigma increase would that really be noticable?

[Gnirf]

Both Dunkerque and GC has its strengths. I managed to get of my best games overall in my history (Qualitywise/Tier) in Dunkerque 197K Dmg when I really did not put a foot wrong (and if the enemy are bad).

GC seems easier to get decent damage/overall gameperformance tierwise. But I have to few games yet but I feel some similiraties with König. Userfriendly. Forgiving to miscalculations where you go, you have the speed to reposition.

Both @Exocet6951 and @Nechrom have valid points. I have them both as a collector. I will recommend GC for a beginner, Dunkerque I will not recommend for a beginner.

 

[EsaTuunanen]

17 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

I for one would prefer a .1 or .2 better sigma on dunkek, because I remember having games where I did really below-average damage because the guns just wouldn't behave.

That dispersion trolling happens in about every ship.

In fast firing ships that streak just lasts less time...

 

Though still isn't funny when some squishy cruisers shows nice nicadel for your gunboat and most APs just splash to water or overpen.

And then there are also like this one WTF? salvo...

https://youtu.be/bRAI8B22Jao?t=6m42s

[RUSSIANBlAS]

The front turret layout is likely OP in this game as armour angling is a game mechanic.

 

It's probably why WG won't give Izumo 3x forward facing guns as then you could have very steep angles which would either bounce or absorb everything whilst having full firepower unlike the USN ships.

 

Also think about how WG balanced the Nelson, she has joke level armour and fairly weak 16" AP (well I find them usable but they're not as good as Colo and Naga). If Nelson had a decent armour pattern she would likely be a monster at T7. Nelson is already very competitive at the tier with all her flaws.

 

So yeah I think Dunker is fine...