IF WG really is concerned about BB overpopulution why dont they just........

[Spellfire40]

Any player looking at the waiting cues can see a overabandence of BBs WG aknowleged that there are to many BBs wany back before we got to this ping before German BBs were released. 

 

To combat that they throw one bandaid after another to create a "conter" that even if it really would work would be screwed by MM if one side gets it and one side dont. Things like AP Bombs and DW Torps come to mind here.

To Combat a problem without tuning down the class as a whoule is bound to end in failure. And im not talking about sudenly having BBs only firing training shells that cant citadel sudenly. What in my mind should be a factor is 

removing things that more and more removes the need for BBs to either make a hard choise or rely on its team for its shortcomings.

 

So if WG is really concerned about BB overpopulution why dont they just.....

 

......remove BBs from the T4 conceilment expert skill?

Fading between salvos. Sneaking up on cruisers that to get any DPS done need to fire often and as such for some reason are way more visible than a 400T + BB. This Ties directly in reducing BB survivability without nerfing things like BB damagecontroll or God forbdts the stupid Bow plating nerf WG looked at. Tanking in a BB IS fine. Being able to disengage without cover isnt.

 

......Give BBs as a class a penalti at detecting Torpedos.?

 

Torpedos are suposed to counter BBs but for some reason they go for DW torps to do the job that every DD should be semi good at from the start. The Torpedo specalized IJN having the worst ability to actually hit is a das joke with Panasia as a fix to the BB problem even more so especally msince their base hulls wreck any IJN DD in a gunfight (well maybe not AKI but she is a odball anyhow). The Goal here is to make BBs take a choise. Either rely on your team for Torpedodetection OR use the T3 detection skill and/or Target Aquisition Mod.to get the detection values they have now without (scale it for below T8 ships that cant slot it to make it fair) And if you think thats unfair thats exactly what CV skiper had to do when they had to take Torpedo aceleration to get to the same speed they had before it went into the game.... The real Goal here is making BBs make a choise without impacting on other class like DW Torps that kill off cruisers more easyly because of their low reaction time.

 

......Remove highpen HE shells from any ship.  I dont care for higher fire chances or higher alpha but all ships should have to make choises in their ammo vs the right Target. If you want more pen use IFHE and pay For it with having 4 points less for other things 

 

What i dont think is a good Idia is increasing Dispersion, increasing Signma  (making it lower) or increasing Rudershift time. BBs must be able to fullfill their role on the Battlefield but their role ISNT being able to deal with any situation that can pop up on their own. 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I don't think WG can touch Concealment for BBs now 

 

It's so deeply engrained in how some BBs operated than they'd have to have a serous amount of re-balancing...

 

DW Torps are idiotic yes, as they don't actually help anyone win games, DDs winning caps and their knife fights means you can free torp unprotected BBs anyway. Why did DW torps need to be implemented? 

 

Don't even get me started on AP bombs, although a part of me wants an Enterprise just to be able to troll low skilled Tirp/Bismarck players I don't think it's worth the huge price of entry lol

 

RN BBs upset me now the dust has settled, I'm on Lion currently and even with the supposed Heal Buff she's brutally effective. It's just that being a mid ranged angled HE spammer is not that fun to play, I always thought the point of BBs was to AP and celebrate those superstar AP strikes. Not to look at the damage counter tick upwards from fire spam...

[AnotherDuck]

14 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

......remove BBs from the T4 conceilment expert skill?

 

I'd rather that they remove the concealment upgrade. Captain skills should be effective regardless of ship, but ship upgrades can be limited, IMO.

 

Unnerfing all torpedoes they've nerfed over time might help. DW torps and AP bombs are just gimmicks that I really doubt will help at all.

[Spellfire40]

9 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

 

I'd rather that they remove the concealment upgrade. Captain skills should be effective regardless of ship, but ship upgrades can be limited, IMO.

 

Unnerfing all torpedoes they've nerfed over time might help. DW torps and AP bombs are just gimmicks that I really doubt will help at all.

Well then lower the values thing is BBs shouldnt benefit from it more than cruisers. Even Battleship Moskwa should be slightly more conceiled than a Monatana Yamato&Co. BBs survival should be more centered on being able to take damage then avoiding it alltogether on top of it. Good BB player allready utilizing cover and disengament routes but the full stealth build make it too easy even if you discount its offensiv potential of genging into firing position and geting off devastating opening salvos on cruisers from ranges were they have very little reaction time.

[wilkatis_LV]

33 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

......remove BBs from the T4 conceilment expert skill?

 

So your solution is "don't do anything to the widowlickers sniping from 20km behind you, get rid of those who work with the team"? Apply for job at WG, they like this kind of attitude...

 

 

[Spellfire40]

4 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

So your solution is "don't do anything to the widowlickers sniping from 20km behind you, get rid of those who work with the team"? Apply for job at WG, they like this kind of attitude...

 

 

But he will end up on the losing team anyway because he cant really suport his team others than hoping for RNG from time to time....(edit the ones shooting from 20km)

[BeauNidl3]

With most (all other than Scharnhorst?) BB's having a reload time appreciably longer than the 20s gun bloom perhaps that needs to be looked at. The statement that WG don't want ships blinking in and out of concealment effectively applies mostly to cruisers which surely is backwards.

The solution to that is increase bloom time on BB's and reduce it on cruisers, in other words scale it on gun size which has some logic.

 

As to the whole BB overpopulation thing many people have said that a hard cap of 3 or at most 4 BB per side would help enormously, yes it would increase queue times for the BB obsessed, but it would actually encourage cruiser play which has been strangled significantly.

 

Tears of the Cruisers and Mountain Range maps are mostly a cruiser nightmare due to the excess number of accurate BB's that can and do camp in the poorly placed cover.  

[wilkatis_LV]

3 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

But he will end up on the losing team anyway because he cant really suport his team others than hoping for RNG from time to time....

 

And that shows clear lack of knowledge how to play a BB aggressively / with team.

He won't.

He can.

Doesn't have to hope if he's not at 20+ km, there is just that much that the RNG can screw you up at closer ranges. Individual ships - yeah, there are things like RN BBs t8 and below who can miss a full broadside BB at 5km consistently. But that's an exception rather than being the rule.

 

I don't have my WR by just sitting back exploring the map border. There is a lot that a competent BB can do, and WG is already doing their best to shut them down and push them back to sit with windowlickers and do nothing. No reason to get even more ways to do that

[Spellfire40]

Just now, wilkatis_LV said:

 

And that shows clear lack of knowledge how to play a BB aggressively / with team.

He won't.

He can.

Doesn't have to hope if he's not at 20+ km, there is just that much that the RNG can screw you up at closer ranges. Individual ships - yeah, there are things like RN BBs t8 and below who can miss a full broadside BB at 5km consistently. But that's an exception rather than being the rule.

 

I don't have my WR by just sitting back exploring the map border. There is a lot that a competent BB can do, and WG is already doing their best to shut them down and push them back to sit with windowlickers and do nothing. No reason to get even more ways to do that

If a BB isnt yoloing ahead nothing changes. Thats exactly why i said dont touch raw survivability or the ability to do its Job but either make choices by selecting skills and have drawbacks in other areas or depend on its team to make up for shortcomings. As it is every new line and patches nearly allways Turn BBs more and more less dependend on other classes.

[MacFergus]

You will never cull BB numbers there a class people want to play especially newer players and WG know this and so cater to there needs by making them easy to play with very few weaknesses , I see a lot of ideas about capping BBs but that wouldn't work either as the last thing WG want is longer queues , You could revert to pre nerf IJN DDs but then you would just replace BBs with DDs people seem to have short memory's when every game had 5 japs DDs each side.

 

There is no easy answer to your question op I'm afraid BBs will be popular whatever WG do or don't.   

[Spellfire40]

12 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

You will never cull BB numbers there a class people want to play especially newer players and WG know this and so cater to there needs by making them easy to play with very few weaknesses , I see a lot of ideas about capping BBs but that wouldn't work either as the last thing WG want is longer queues , You could revert to pre nerf IJN DDs but then you would just replace BBs with DDs people seem to have short memory's when every game had 5 japs DDs each side.

 

There is no easy answer to your question op I'm afraid BBs will be popular whatever WG do or don't.   

Yea but shima despite being a joke today is still a well loved and often played Destroyer without making the whole meta a pain to play for everyone else while BBs get one toy after another to make their live easyer and easyer. RN superstealth underwater cits dont care about angeling and armor i do 10k plus salvos and fires on top is just the last evulution of them being made them surviable and easy to play (not 100% True because bad BB players just dont realize that knowing when and when not to comit their HP pool)

[RamirezKurita]

I don't see the need to remove their ability to benefit from the concealment expert skill, but the problem is how some BBs have pretty reasonable concealment in the first place combined with their bloom/RoF ratio. I'd be quite happy if they added an extra few km onto the detection ranges for all capital ships in the game, particularly the upper tier ones. It should take quite a lot of work to get a battleship to be capable of comfortably firing from stealth, but at the upper tiers that's pretty much a given even without extra effort and all the other concealment bonuses simply compounds this effect. The bloom/RoF is an entirely separate issue to the concealment itself, but battleships are enjoying the unique position of blinking in and out of visibility even while firing at maximum rate. They should at very least limit bloom to reload time + 5 seconds or 20 seconds, whichever one is higher, so that ships can't enjoy firing at maximum rate while also getting stealth bonuses.

 

Torpedoes are mostly fine as far as I can see, battleships already struggle to dodge most torpedo spreads in the upper tiers because of their slow rudders unless they are using Hydro or have a spotter ahead of them. The only real issue is that some torpedoes, particularly the IJN ones are arguably slightly too visible. Rather than torpedoes themselves being the problem, the real problem I see is capital ship AA in the upper tiers which generally shreds carrier aircraft and all but removes the need for cruisers to escort them combined with the near-zero chance to cause flooding with air-dropped torpedoes, USN BBs should be slightly more independent but should still fear equal tier carriers enough to bunch up.

 

I think both of the above issues are also partially related to the fact that capital ships only get 2 options in the T8+ upgrade slot - one for concealment and one for improved torpedo detection. A third option that improves their strengths rather than simply reducing weaknesses would help a great deal.

 

Things like AP bombs wouldn't be a cause for concern if they were to actually finish getting them to work properly and then roll them out for all carriers (ideally with methods to reequip bombers in-game rather than it be a module choice from port), rather than just keeping them as a highly specific gimmick.

 

For HE penetration, I agree that they should keep penetration fairly uniform, but I also think they should go onto a full WoT style HE damage model where the shells still deal a bit of damage even without penetrating. This would also fix issues about the penetration cutoffs with IFHE as it wouldn't make 6-inch shells go from 0% to 100% of their penetration damage in a single jump, it would be 80+% to 100% when hitting unarmoured sections instead. The current mechanics basically make a single millimeter of calibre or armour mean the difference between losing 60% of your HP in a hurricane of low-calibre HE shells until most of your ship is depleted and only suffering a couple of fires.

[El2aZeR]

Honestly I'd like to see the bow armor nerf tested again.

 

That or just raise the citadel of every BB to pre-nerf Montana levels so people can reliably punish broadsiding.

[elblancogringo]

1 hour ago, Spellfire40 said:

So if WG is really concerned about BB overpopulution why dont they just.....

 

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

you should not make me laugh like that, I nearly droped my tea cup on my keybord

[wilkatis_LV]

21 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

If a BB isnt yoloing ahead nothing changes. Thats exactly why i said dont touch raw survivability or the ability to do its Job but either make choices by selecting skills and have drawbacks in other areas or depend on its team to make up for shortcomings. As it is every new line and patches nearly allways Turn BBs more and more less dependend on other classes.

 

There is a difference between yoloing and playing aggressive with team.

 

What's the point of a yoloing DD / CL / CA / CV? Just as much as from a yoloing BB. That's not a single-class issue.

 

Or you call anyone who's not 20km behind you a "yoloing BB"?

 

Detection is part of raw survivability. Not spotted = not getting shot at = surviving longer.

 

And the only reason why BBs become more and more depending on other classes is that WG is constantly punishing good BB players and leaving the windowlickers untouched

• 6.7 economy "buffs" - 75% less reward for potential dmg. Windowlicker at 20km didn't even notice the change, that BB who was pushing with team and tanking hits so his DDs and CAs didn't have to - got a massive nerf to their income, and was discouraged from tanking because of it.
• Deep Water Torps - windowlickers 20km behind you aren't going to be the ones eating them, it's the "good BBs" working with the team that will take them.
• Smoke change - the windowlicker exploring the map border never needed that smoke in the 1st place, it's the BB who pushed with team to help them who is getting focused down and requires that ability to hide for a moment.

Your stealth idea would fit perfectly in this list

[AnotherDuck]

1 hour ago, BeauNidl3 said:

With most (all other than Scharnhorst?) BB's having a reload time appreciably longer than the 20s gun bloom perhaps that needs to be looked at. The statement that WG don't want ships blinking in and out of concealment effectively applies mostly to cruisers which surely is backwards.

 

Tears of the Cruisers and Mountain Range maps are mostly a cruiser nightmare due to the excess number of accurate BB's that can and do camp in the poorly placed cover.  

 

Battleships are effectively blinking in and out as it is, since they have a slower reload than the gun bloom. Just like gun bloom is as least as long as gun range, it should also be at least as long as the reload.

 

Tears of the Cruisers is at least playable in battleships and destroyers. Mountain Range is a pain in the arse to play regardless of ship.

 

1 hour ago, RamirezKurita said:

Torpedoes are mostly fine as far as I can see, battleships already struggle to dodge most torpedo spreads in the upper tiers because of their slow rudders unless they are using Hydro or have a spotter ahead of them.

 

You mean high tier battleships struggle with torpedoes if they don't play with the team? I'm completely fine with that.

[ForlornSailor]

1 hour ago, BeauNidl3 said:

With most (all other than Scharnhorst?) BB's having a reload time appreciably longer than the 20s gun bloom perhaps that needs to be looked at. The statement that WG don't want ships blinking in and out of concealment effectively applies mostly to cruisers which surely is backwards.

The solution to that is increase bloom time on BB's and reduce it on cruisers, in other words scale it on gun size which has some logic.

 

You know whats funny? WG managed to come up with different detectabilitiy ranges for the new smoke spotting but couldnt figure anything different then "20s bloom time. always and for everyone". Really makes me wonder sometimes...

[juanxmar]

You are all expecting DG to make something logic or sensible.

 

[GhostRiderMax123]

The best thing to do is to limit BB's to 2 or 3 per team. people will soon start playing other ships due to que times :D

[RamirezKurita]

1 hour ago, AnotherDuck said:

You mean high tier battleships struggle with torpedoes if they don't play with the team? I'm completely fine with that.

 

Pretty much, as far as I'm concerned a battleship shouldn't be able to dodge a torpedo spread if they only begin manoeuvring once they have spotted the torpedoes. Capital ships specced entirely for avoiding torps, using all the rudder mods and torpedo detection stuff they can get should be on the borderline. Ideally, battleships should either begin evasive manoeuvres before they spot the torpedoes or rely upon allies, forcing them to either play very well or actually play with their team.

[EsaTuunanen]

2 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

And the only reason why BBs become more and more depending on other classes is that WG is constantly punishing good BB players and leaving the windowlickers untouched

• 6.7 economy "buffs" - 75% less reward for potential dmg. Windowlicker at 20km didn't even notice the change, that BB who was pushing with team and tanking hits so his DDs and CAs didn't have to - got a massive nerf to their income, and was discouraged from tanking because of it.
• Deep Water Torps - windowlickers 20km behind you aren't going to be the ones eating them, it's the "good BBs" working with the team that will take them.
• Smoke change - the windowlicker exploring the map border never needed that smoke in the 1st place, it's the BB who pushed with team to help them who is getting focused down and requires that ability to hide for a moment.

Your stealth idea would fit perfectly in this list

Don't worry, WG has no doubt more HE spamming BBs coming so that those max range hiders don't have to suffer from only hits to properly playing doing superstructure overpens and bouncing...

[SmartassNoob]

I suggested this in one previous BB overpopulation thread, but whatever.

• In reality, BBs were very strong against cruisers and DDs. In fact, secondary guns had about as much range and accuracy as same caliber cruiser guns. As the legend goes, a New Mexico class BB still holds the world record for most enemy ships detonated with a single salvo for when one of them detonated 4 DDs in a single salvo (1 per turret). However, in reality BBs were "balanced" by being very rare. For every 1 battleship, there was about 20 cruisers and 50 destroyers.

So how about this for a fix?

• First, make BBs rare by making a limit of maybe 2 per team.
• Then make it so that you have to play 10 battles in other ship types to unlock 1 battleship battle.
• Then massively buff all secondary guns (including cruiser secondary guns?) to realistic levels and provide all high tier BBs with radar and what not. And make BBs take a bit less damage from fire, due to all important components being safely inside the citadel. Obviously fire would still eliminate AA guns.
• Maybe they could also add a separate BB-only game mode where you don't need to unlock the battle and where other ships can't play (or are warned against).

This way it would be win-win. Battleships would be worthy of the title AND they would be rare. As rare and OP as carriers.

[AnotherDuck]

8 minutes ago, SmartassNoob said:

• However, in reality BBs were "balanced" by being very rare. For every 1 battleship, there was about 20 cruisers and 50 destroyers.

 

They were rare because they were massively more expensive than cruisers and destroyers. If I'm paying as much for those ships as I do for battleships, I want them to be as strong.

[Larky2k]

45 minutes ago, SmartassNoob said:

I suggested this in one previous BB overpopulation thread, but whatever.

• In reality, BBs were very strong against cruisers and DDs. In fact, secondary guns had about as much range and accuracy as same caliber cruiser guns. As the legend goes, a New Mexico class BB still holds the world record for most enemy ships detonated with a single salvo for when one of them detonated 4 DDs in a single salvo (1 per turret). However, in reality BBs were "balanced" by being very rare. For every 1 battleship, there was about 20 cruisers and 50 destroyers.

So how about this for a fix?

• First, make BBs rare by making a limit of maybe 2 per team.
• Then make it so that you have to play 10 battles in other ship types to unlock 1 battleship battle.
• Then massively buff all secondary guns (including cruiser secondary guns?) to realistic levels and provide all high tier BBs with radar and what not. And make BBs take a bit less damage from fire, due to all important components being safely inside the citadel. Obviously fire would still eliminate AA guns.
• Maybe they could also add a separate BB-only game mode where you don't need to unlock the battle and where other ships can't play (or are warned against).

This way it would be win-win. Battleships would be worthy of the title AND they would be rare. As rare and OP as carriers.

were the DD's all grouped together in 1 clump or did the guy have to move the camera to engage the next DD. if its the Latter then its 4 salvos as he was only doing 1 turret per Slavo.

@OP let WG remove the Concealment skill and Upgraded when they remove HE from the game. 

[SmartassNoob]

10 minutes ago, Larky2k said:

were the DD's all grouped together in 1 clump or did the guy have to move the camera to engage the next DD. if its the Latter then its 4 salvos as he was only doing 1 turret per Slavo.

@OP let WG remove the Concealment skill and Upgraded when they remove HE from the game. 

That record was in reality. I heard about that legend a number of years ago and can't remember other details.