How is this a game?

[Bigtime_Alarm]

So I just got slaughtered like a pig in an abattoir by an Orion. On paper my Kaiser is a relatively similar ship. I shoot at him and a couple hit for minimum damage and he fires a salvo of he back. I take fairly heavy damage and a fire which eats up my HP like sweeties. Press R and put it out and while I am still reloading another salvo and another crazy high speed fire and that is it I am done, while he has a few scratches. What is the point of playing when there is literally nothing you can do? There was absolutlely no way of taking on a theoretically similar ship one on one. In a game surely there should be some balance, some chance of doing something other than being helplessly obliterated for the gratification of someone else's ego? Or am I missing the point?

[Tyrendian89]

3 minutes ago, Bigtime_Alarm said:

a fire which eats up my HP like sweeties. Press R and put it out

[...]

There was absolutlely no way

 

uh huh... because properly managing your DamaCon is not something one can do eh?

 

not that the Orion isnt idiotically strong at T4, mind you, but...

[Bigtime_Alarm]

Well thanks for the put down. 

 

Unkillable wonder ships for enemies and its all my fault too.

 

Like I said, why bother?

[FishDogFoodShack]

Well, he isn't wrong. It is not a good idea to use your damage con to put out a single fire pretty much ever, especially so when fighting a ship that you know is focusing you with HE, it just invites more fires to burn their full duration. Best to wait until you have 2 or even 3 burning, as fire damage can be healed back afterwards.

That said, Orion is well known to be absolutely [edited]broken, it's a seal clubber's dream, so even if you had waited to put out more fires, no guarantee you'd still have come out on top.

You're also making a thread about claiming a ship is OP when you have only 900 battles under your belt, which isn't too much by this game's standards, no fault on you but the community on these forums will see that number + an OP ragethread and assume the worst as these kinds of things tend to be misinformed and petty.

[Exocet6951]

14 minutes ago, Bigtime_Alarm said:

Well thanks for the put down. 

 

Unkillable wonder ships for enemies and its all my fault too.

 

Like I said, why bother?

 

His point is that while there are broken ships in the game, knowing how to manage your damage control and managing fires will help you tremendously against every enemy ship.

So no, it's not your fault that the Orion is hilariously broken (Kaiser isn't that much better in my opinion), but it is your fault to have poor DCP reflexes.
But worry not, it's never too late to get better in that respect, despite the odds being against you in form of broken RN BB HE.

[ColonelPete]

The Kaiser is an extremly strong ship, but you need to know where to go and where to aim.

If he shows broadside, you can take an Orion. If he angles well, you have use HE too and probably need some help.

[Lin3]

Bigtime_Alarm, now you know how Danaes feel when you blow them them to kingdom come in one or two salvoes.

 

Kaiser was power creep on the Wyoming and Myogi. Orion is power creep on the Kaiser.

 

You're probably better off taking on Orions in a Phoenix. You'd at least have the ability to spam them at a safeish distance and dodge most their shots - as long as you had plenty of map room to give ground and kite.

 

 

Give it a couple of months and the Orion will be whacked with the nerf bat.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

1 hour ago, Bigtime_Alarm said:

Well thanks for the put down. 

 

Unkillable wonder ships for enemies and its all my fault too.

 

Like I said, why bother?

 

Just think of the old saying: "If you can't beat them, join them!" and get Yourself an Orion, too.

Then You can feel utterly unbeatable just to get shot into smithereens by either another Orion with a more experienced player on the wheel or about all other T4 BBs with more experienced players on the wheel or by cruisers with more experienced players at the wheel... at least DDs will only take You down with torpedoes... as will experienced CV players...

 

Thing is, as already said, 900 battles isn't that much. And Your BB stats show, that You do below average damage while surviving more than the average number of battles.

Check Youtube for some nice "How to sail a BB" videos and learn... learn... and learn some more. Then even the Orion will lose a bit of the fear it imposes on You right now...

 

 

18 minutes ago, Lin3 said:

You're probably better off taking on Orions in a Phoenix. You'd at least have the ability to spam them at a safeish distance and dodge most their shots - as long as you had plenty of map room to give ground and kite.

 

And as long as the Orion is dumb enough to not use any islands to break Your targetting.

A GOOD player in a Phoenix has a chance to take on an Orion. Until he gets hit. Phoenix can't take many hits from an Orion, when the first salvo already damages/destroys some torpedo tubes, damages the engine and/or steering and puts it on fire. Press repair button and pray that in 30 seconds you're far away enough to evade at least the next salvo...

Orion + Experienced Player = Finestkind Sealclubbing...

[Bigtime_Alarm]

My point was really why would I want to play another match ? I don't really see how it is any sort of a game if the outcome is pretty much settled before you start.

[Skyllon]

Nah. It is often not settled on start. You never know your enemy and at some point, once you collect little bit of 'know how' you can even take on much superior enemies.

Take a note British BBs are still in its infancy (yeah, surely some are more broken then others) but we can expect fine tuning, so don't give up so easily and hop in another match!

[Tungstonid]

5 minutes ago, Bigtime_Alarm said:

My point was really why would I want to play another match ? I don't really see how it is any sort of a game if the outcome is pretty much settled before you start.

 

Because it isn't.

As other people said: Learn how and when to use your DCP and you will have less problems with fire damage. Learn to be a better captain so your chances in the next similar situations are more in your favour. You never know how a battle will go until it is over.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

13 minutes ago, Tungstonid said:

You never know how a battle will go until it is over.

 

*cough* with enough experience you WILL know how the battle probably ends right after the first two or three minutes of the battle... long before the opponent is visible.

 

 

[Tungstonid]

Just now, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

*cough* with enough experience you WILL know how the battle probably ends right after the first two or three minutes of the battle... long before the opponent is visible.

 

 

 

And yet I had a lot of games during the last days which unexpectedly turned around 180° right in the middle.

Example: Tier 10 game on Mountain range, domination mode. My whole team went for A, giving B and C to the enemy right from the start. Yet we won because after a few minutes the enemies started to ... evaporate all of a sudden, leading to a 12-1 victory IIRC. One of the few games where a lemming train worked although shortly after the start I was sure that this game was to be a total screw-up.

[EsaTuunanen]

3 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

*cough* with enough experience you WILL know how the battle probably ends right after the first two or three minutes of the battle... long before the opponent is visible.

Like when clearly TK history  Mogami fires AP salvo into Pensacola halving its hp and dying to reflected damage before minute has gone?

 

3 minutes ago, Tungstonid said:

One of the few games where a lemming train worked although shortly after the start I was sure that this game was to be a total screw-up.

Enemy team was even bigger screw up.

[eliastion]

1 hour ago, Bigtime_Alarm said:

My point was really why would I want to play another match ? I don't really see how it is any sort of a game if the outcome is pretty much settled before you start.

You see, the problem is that while some ships are overpowered, the deciding factor is the skill of combatants on both sides. Do you know what would happen if there was a match where one side would consist of players like you (not terrible but certainly pretty inexperienced) and the other of relative veterans with 3000+ battles and 55%+ winrate? Answer is: the second team would most likely obliterate the first, regardless of whether the proportion of Orions and Kaisers in each of them. In fact, the second tema would probably still win even if all of them were sailing Myogis.

 

Also, as for Kaisers being so clearly outmatched by Orions, the stats from last two weeks actually suggest the two to have similar winrate (in favor of Kaiser, in fact). So while Kaisers do seem to be dealing a bit less damage, it certainly does not seem like they are worse. Perhaps they tend to lose in a duel (or maybe you just got outplayed badly), but they win just as many of their battles in the end. The actual big difference is between the two and the other two non-premium BBs of their tier. Sailing Kaiser, you sit in one of the OP ships, OP (pun intended). But sometimes the enemy has an OP ship too - and it just might be so that the other OP ship has some solid means of dealing with your OP ship in particular.

[MacFergus]

7 hours ago, Bigtime_Alarm said:

So I just got slaughtered like a pig in an abattoir by an Orion. On paper my Kaiser is a relatively similar ship. I shoot at him and a couple hit for minimum damage and he fires a salvo of he back. I take fairly heavy damage and a fire which eats up my HP like sweeties. Press R and put it out and while I am still reloading another salvo and another crazy high speed fire and that is it I am done, while he has a few scratches. What is the point of playing when there is literally nothing you can do? There was absolutlely no way of taking on a theoretically similar ship one on one. In a game surely there should be some balance, some chance of doing something other than being helplessly obliterated for the gratification of someone else's ego? Or am I missing the point?

 

Don't beat yourself up over it DCM doesn't really help if you come across RN BBs there nothing you can do use it and you will get another 2 fires right after, if its a smart Orion your dead in the water anyway the ship is probably the most op ship in the game at the moment but don't worry I feel the swish of the nerf bat coming.

 

If you face an Orion and he's spamming HE and a decent player just forget it and ask your team to help or let them know before the battle starts to make them priority targets.

[MacFergus]

3 hours ago, eliastion said:

You see, the problem is that while some ships are overpowered, the deciding factor is the skill of combatants on both sides. Do you know what would happen if there was a match where one side would consist of players like you (not terrible but certainly pretty inexperienced) and the other of relative veterans with 3000+ battles and 55%+ winrate? Answer is: the second team would most likely obliterate the first, regardless of whether the proportion of Orions and Kaisers in each of them. In fact, the second tema would probably still win even if all of them were sailing Myogis.

 

Also, as for Kaisers being so clearly outmatched by Orions, the stats from last two weeks actually suggest the two to have similar winrate (in favor of Kaiser, in fact). So while Kaisers do seem to be dealing a bit less damage, it certainly does not seem like they are worse. Perhaps they tend to lose in a duel (or maybe you just got outplayed badly), but they win just as many of their battles in the end. The actual big difference is between the two and the other two non-premium BBs of their tier. Sailing Kaiser, you sit in one of the OP ships, OP (pun intended). But sometimes the enemy has an OP ship too - and it just might be so that the other OP ship has some solid means of dealing with your OP ship in particular.

 

The Orion is a low skill ship even in the hands of a novice shooting HE you can burn anything including vet players in Kaisers as ship angling accounts for sweet FA when facing HE.

[Gnirf]

11 hours ago, Bigtime_Alarm said:

So I just got slaughtered like a pig in an abattoir by an Orion. On paper my Kaiser is a relatively similar ship. I shoot at him and a couple hit for minimum damage and he fires a salvo of he back. I take fairly heavy damage and a fire which eats up my HP like sweeties. Press R and put it out and while I am still reloading another salvo and another crazy high speed fire and that is it I am done, while he has a few scratches. What is the point of playing when there is literally nothing you can do? There was absolutlely no way of taking on a theoretically similar ship one on one. In a game surely there should be some balance, some chance of doing something other than being helplessly obliterated for the gratification of someone else's ego? Or am I missing the point?

LIke other posts have said DCP for two fires, start the heal instead when you begin to have damage that can be healed (showed on your ship damage icon). As they have a cooldown too proper alternernating of these two will help you. Use premium DCP at least, do not forget to tick the arrow and change from 15 gold to 22500 silver credits.

 

On many low tier maps you have lots of islands to break line of sight , if you are HE focused and not have help judge whether you can slug it out or have to cease fire and disengage to have cooldown restored.

That you will learn if you want to with experience. On lower tiers new players either do not know when to push (pressing home an advantage) but also when to take a step back. If you see a Orion in front try to have help if you have local superiority you will defeat an equally skilled player. However many veterans may play lower tiers RN now (new line9 even though they mostly have advanced now (grinding T8 atm myself) so the skill difference is high in lower tiers. If I face you in the Ishizuchi (BBQ premium IJN Battlecruiser) I will play HE almost exclusively and will burn you to death, I use more AP in Orion.

 

So while your post is a newbie rant, I agree with you that all stats show Orion is OP , but your problem is also experience. Kaiser (the German BB line) are a newbiefriendly ship compared with Myogi and Wyoming easier to play and get decent results in, more forgiving damage wise, but against HE spam all T4:s have same problems.  Well I hope you continue to play and try to improve on some basics in damage mitigation then you will feel better, But I can tell you that my favourite Battleship BBQ ship is the Bogatyr (18 p captain) though life has been made harder with the RN Battleships and the powercreep of her enemys (longer gunrange of all the opponents (Battleships) and FR cruisers (D-T) and longer range for ST Louis. Buuuäähhhhh But who says no to a challenge before it was almost too easy to stack huge damage numbers 

[triumphgt6]

Personally I don't mind meeting Orions - as I will usually be in a Fujin. Prefer playing Tier 7 in her but if matched with Tier 4, I make it my task to rid the opposition of Orions! Does that count as seal clubbing?

[invicta2012]

Orions aren't all that, tbh. They're not the best armoured, their AP is not great, they're not the fastest, most manoeuvrable... you often see people believing the hype at lower tiers and sitting at the back waiting to make Decisive Strikes. They usually get focused and sunk quickly.

 

HE spam is annoying but the solution is teamwork - don't get isolated, focus on HE spammers first - and getting in close so that you can use your superior AP and brawling firepower (Orion's secondaries only go out to 3.5k, like most Tier IVs, but Kaiser's kick in at 5k and do substantially more damage). Be slow on the trigger with your Damage Control, too; killing multiple fires after the second salvo and then healing is often more effective than repairing the first one, getting hit again and then burning for two minutes. 

[mrk421]

With the BB HE meta brought on by the RN, the skill factor of managing your DCP has been made essentially irrelevant. You either: a) burn the DCP on one fire, get set on fire again (potentially on multiple locations) and take massive burning damage OR b) wait until you have 2-3 fires going before burning the DCP, taking massive burning damage during the process and then might get set on fire again for even more burning damage before you can find cover OR c) you're very disciplined, and wait until you break line of sight before using your DCP, despite potentially having multiple fires raging on your ship, which will cause you massive burning damage as well.

 

So, really, in the current meta, the only way to avoid ridiculous amounts of burning damage is to be able to position yourself in a way you can break LoS and not get HE spammed in the first place.

[ColonelPete]

13 hours ago, Bigtime_Alarm said:

My point was really why would I want to play another match ? I don't really see how it is any sort of a game if the outcome is pretty much settled before you start.

But it is not...

 

13 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

*cough* with enough experience you WILL know how the battle probably ends right after the first two or three minutes of the battle... long before the opponent is visible.

No. If your team sleeps, enemy might sleep also.

You have to wait at least until you can spot most of the enemy team to do a half decent prediction and even then you are wrong quite often.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

11 hours ago, triumphgt6 said:

Personally I don't mind meeting Orions - as I will usually be in a Fujin. Prefer playing Tier 7 in her but if matched with Tier 4, I make it my task to rid the opposition of Orions! Does that count as seal clubbing?

 

All action in Kamikaze Sisters (Kamikaze, Kamikaze R and Fujin) counts as automatic sealclubbing, even when you are the only lowtier in a T7 battle.

 

11 hours ago, Gnirf said:

If I face you in the Ishizuchi (BBQ premium IJN Battlecruiser) I will play HE almost exclusively and will burn you to death, I use more AP in Orion.

 

Itchy Suzi is a really nice firestarter, but her AP is also quite nice. She's a bit more squishy than a MOO (Master Of Orion) and the MOO's heal is better (IMHO).

But experienced players facing off in those two ships would make for an interesting duel.

 

And yes, I also use quite a lot AP in the Orion... as soon as an enemy BB shows me Broadside at ~10 km or when I see a mentally challenged Cruiser showing me broadside.

HE is more to... warm the opponent up a bit and make him burn his repairs.

[Capra76]

23 hours ago, Lin3 said:

Give it a couple of months and the Orion will be whacked with the nerf bat. all other BB will be buffed to RN levels

 

FTFY.

 

Am I the only one who's starting to think that FF is pretty much mandatory as a captain skill on all BB these days?

[eliastion]

On 10/7/2017 at 4:48 AM, MacFergus said:

 

The Orion is a low skill ship even in the hands of a novice shooting HE you can burn anything including vet players in Kaisers as ship angling accounts for sweet FA when facing HE.

See, vet players tend to possess skills other than angling. They also know where to go, when to disengage and how to cooperate with other players. And in low tier BBs all of these are very important because engagement ranges are short and speeds low: when you f*ck up positioning, it takes you half the battle to fix that (unless the f*ck-up is overextending, then you just die). And a team of vet players in Kaisers vs a team of newbies (or noobs) in Orions? You imagine them fighting 1v1 because the numbers are equal, but that's not true - the vet players would end up having some 2:1 advantage in most engagements, because they'd be able to outmaneuver the opponents and pick the fights they want to fight while the inexperienced/bad players just won't be able to do that - some will stay too far back to contribute properly, others will overextend and get focused, others yet will end up blocked by islands, some will fail to spot the correct moment to disengage and heal up... And it really doesn't matter that you can beat enemy angling when superior positioning by enemy means that they always focus your ships down with more firepower than you can ever focus on any one ship (and even if you do manage to focus someone down, he disengages when in danger and you need to either give chase, drawing even more concentrated fire, or let him go, letting him heal most of the HE+fire damage suffered.

Orion might be a superior ship. But in WoWs superior ships are just slightly better tools that still require your skill to give results. And skill tends to beat the quality of tools.