Oh, how I hate surveilance radar

[Wildf1re]

I enjoy playing all ship classes and have generally enjoyed the game since I started on the NA server, later moving here to the EU server. However, I have to say that the fun factor are diminishing. One thing is the constant 5 vs 5 BB matches, which - for me - isn't even fun playing BB (and they keep comming up with more BBs to add to the game?). But the sheer nature of suicide cap for DD's is really bringing me down. Even if playing (very) carefully and not yolo'ing into capping or taking agressive runs at BBs - the radar is just breaking the DD game. Oh, I enjoy taking out a DD when playing cruiser, but I could do that before radar came into play...

But DD's are extremely hard to play with radar abounding, too hard I think. Was just in a game, at the edge of possible radar range and sure enough once the cap started colloring - ding - someone pops radar. I am spotted and before I am out of range I am down to half hp with shells from four ships from across tha map raining down on me. Okay I sneak and pop in again after radar have had its run, but - ding - someone else pops radar. This time I am behind rock, so no problem. I wait, radar times out and slowly mopve forward when - ding - another one pops radar and I am gone in seconds taking shells from three ships...

Either you die fast as a DD or you stay back until - presumably - all radars are exhausted and then you can contribute at the end of the game :( It's just not fun, the range a horrific on radar, never mind the usual risks you have of being spotted by planes, spotter planes and other DD's...

Oh, well. That was todays cry... Just needed to vent a bit. Thanks :)

 

 

 

[MacFergus]

Np m8 I see your points , Gimmicks are ruining MM and making the game less enjoyable imho , your vent is justified and the undue pressure put on DDs in domination games is just stupid and disgusting its like you play this class and you must do this , yea ok so why make 70% of games domination let DDs have some fun also.

 

Good post chin up and get a nice hot cup of tea.

 

[Wildf1re]

4 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

Np m8 I see your points , Gimmicks are ruining MM and making the game less enjoyable imho , your vent is justified and the undue pressure put on DDs in domination games is just stupid and disgusting its like you play this class and you must do this , yea ok so why make 70% of games domination let DDs have some fun also.

 

Good post chin up and get a nice hot cup of tea.

 

Thanks for the encouragement :)

[Cosseria]

Adopt a more wary and passive gameplay, that's what I've done since radar and RPF came around. No more far scouting if I'm not 100% sure that no radar ships are around. No capping without support. Keep at least 9 - 12 kms away from any radar, or try to foresee their deployment based on their last known position. Never fire from smoke in the middle of nowhere, always keep an island nearby.

Yeah, granted, it's less fun than it used to be.

 

[Thracen]

Radar bait, take an line into a cap that lets them know you are there, they hit the radar button, but your planned route leaves you safely behind an island, radar burnt. Not easy by any means, but possible and effective. (I am not a good player and I manage this from time to time).

 

My problem in dds are cvs, I don't understand how a dd is meant to play when you are trapped within your teams aa bubbles with your torps being insta spotted. You can't shoot, cap or torp or scout. What else do dds do? well sink, is the obvious answer.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

1 hour ago, Thracen said:

Radar bait, take an line into a cap that lets them know you are there, they hit the radar button, but your planned route leaves you safely behind an island, radar burnt. Not easy by any means, but possible and effective. (I am not a good player and I manage this from time to time).

 

This exactly... the good thing about radar is, that it has a lot lower runtime than hydro for example.

So if you can manage to have the enemy "burn" his use of radar, then you are free to move where you want for a while.

[darky_fighter]

You often don't know when radar duration ends, radar cool down is a short time period and even DDs are slow so I don't use this cool down time very often. It is often a bad chance-risk-situation.

I usually play the safe way: I spot the radar cruiser and I press F3.

[rvfharrier]

Enemy radar is something you always have to be mindful of but it's not something that confines you to uselessness until the end of the game when they're all dead. Make note of how many enemy radar ships there are, know their radar range/durations off by heart (always assume they have the radar duration upgrade), make note of their positions when they're spotted and don't necessarily always stay outside of their radar range, but make sure you have a plan if they suddenly light you up. Never let them get so close that you'll be stuck inside their radar range in the open for the entire cycle though, either moderate the distance so that it's escapable in a short-ish amount of time or have some cover on hand to utilize. Also consider that if you're unspotted, then even if you're inside their radar range they don't necessarily know that. If you're in a dangerous situation don't do anything that would grab their attention by smoking up or starting to cap despite no ship being visible to them etc. Otherwise just do your thing and play the game. Never forget about or ignore enemy radar ships, they certainly do demand your attention but they shouldn't radically change the way you play DDs.

 

Radar is something the MM should both cap and balance across teams, but it's not something that's inherently game breaking and impossible to counter.

[Wildf1re]

2 hours ago, Cosseria said:

Adopt a more wary and passive gameplay, that's what I've done since radar and RPF came around. No more far scouting if I'm not 100% sure that no radar ships are around. No capping without support. Keep at least 9 - 12 kms away from any radar, or try to foresee their deployment based on their last known position. Never fire from smoke in the middle of nowhere, always keep an island nearby.

Yeah, granted, it's less fun than it used to be.

 

Exactly my point, less fun which is a damned shame. I get sleepy with the passive wary gameplay that more and more adopt including myself. It's good advice under the circumstances and I do heed them most of the time, even to the point of forgetting I have smoke - because smoke equals game over many times :(.

[DocStrangeFruit]

Radar ruins the game its as simple as that.

 

They either need to lower its range, lower its duration or increase its cool down and for god sake remove it off the bloody Missouri .

[Wildf1re]

54 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

This exactly... the good thing about radar is, that it has a lot lower runtime than hydro for example.

So if you can manage to have the enemy "burn" his use of radar, then you are free to move where you want for a while.

True, but not effective when two-three ships in the vicinity have radar and (smartly enough) uses them in sequence, holding off when another have already popped radar. Something I have experienced quite a few times - that way you can have quite a few minutes ticking by just evading - and evading - and evading... if you live that long. Anyway, I am not saying you cannot counter it, just that with CV planes and spotter planes and radar, well it's taking the fun out of playing DDs. I like DDs because they are hard to play, but this has become a bit too much.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

8 minutes ago, Wildf1re said:

True, but not effective when two-three ships in the vicinity have radar and (smartly enough) uses them in sequence, holding off when another have already popped radar. Something I have experienced quite a few times - that way you can have quite a few minutes ticking by just evading - and evading - and evading... if you live that long. Anyway, I am not saying you cannot counter it, just that with CV planes and spotter planes and radar, well it's taking the fun out of playing DDs. I like DDs because they are hard to play, but this has become a bit too much.

 

When one cap is phat with radar and planes there's usually two others that aren't. Go there. Let the radar cruisers be the problem of your allied cruisers and/or BBs...

Patience and a more tactical approach to the game help a lot...

[Wildf1re]

16 minutes ago, rvfharrier said:

Enemy radar is something you always have to be mindful of but it's not something that confines you to uselessness until the end of the game when they're all dead. Make note of how many enemy radar ships there are, know their radar range/durations off by heart (always assume they have the radar duration upgrade), make note of their positions when they're spotted and don't necessarily always stay outside of their radar range, but make sure you have a plan if they suddenly light you up. Never let them get so close that you'll be stuck inside their radar range in the open for the entire cycle though, either moderate the distance so that it's escapable in a short-ish amount of time or have some cover on hand to utilize. Also consider that if you're unspotted, then even if you're inside their radar range they don't necessarily know that. If you're in a dangerous situation don't do anything that would grab their attention by smoking up or starting to cap despite no ship being visible to them etc. Otherwise just do your thing and play the game. Never forget about or ignore enemy radar ships, they certainly do demand your attention but they shouldn't radically change the way you play DDs.

 

Radar is something the MM should both cap and balance across teams, but it's not something that's inherently game breaking and impossible to counter.

Again, agree. Both in the good advice and in that's not making DDs totally useless. However, for me it IS changing the way I play DDs and I see many other DDs that are very hesitant in domination matches. It's high tiers with the long ranges and people are (as they should be) quick too zoom in on a DD, so it's extremely frustrating taht you can't even benefit from a low detectablity - which should be a DDs strength. Radar makes capping a suicide prone run even when you are cautious adding to the already passive play so prevalant - which again I think is sad.

[Wildf1re]

8 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

When one cap is phat with radar and planes there's usually two others that aren't. Go there. Let the radar cruisers be the problem of your allied cruisers and/or BBs...

Patience and a more tactical approach to the game help a lot...

Oh, I'm being very tactical :). Does not make me like radar more... and sometimes its hard ignoring your teams outrage when you leave a cap for exactly that reason. But you're right, now we just need the BBs to push forward and the few cruisers too - although as I play them myself I get why they wanna stay at max range :). Hey, I can always go back to low tier and yolo into caps, thats still fun but kin of defeats grinding upper tier...

[ClappingLollies]

18 minutes ago, Dr_Strangefruit said:

Radar ruins the game its as simple as that.

 

They either need to lower its range, lower its duration or increase its cool down and for god sake remove it off the bloody Missouri .

 

I'm sorry if i sound a bit like an @ss here now, but i don't think radar is the fault of your bad experience with the game. You have 38% WR over 1048 battles with DD's. Tbh, i think you should try to learn a bit more at low tier before you say something is ruining the game.

I also play alot of DD's. Radar is never a problem. Look at the playerlist and see which ships to avoid, or try to bait out the radar instead of smoking up inside caps waiting for something to happen. Pay attention to the minimap and try to see where the last location of the radarship is. 

Also keep in mind that most radarships take BIG risks when going close to caps to use radar these days(risk of getting deleted by torps and BB's). So if they manage to kill you in the cap when using radar, its pretty much your own fault for not paying attention. 

 

One thing i agree with though is removing the radar from the Missouri. Only CL's/CA's should have radar and hydro in my opinion.

[GulvkluderGuld]

OP is right. It isn't Radar the consumable breaking the game, it is every goddamn ship having it.

Remember Tier 7 ranged (5 belfast + junk vs 5 belfast + junk). The only worse thing than smoke meta is smoke+ radar meta. 

And now WG went ad gave Missouri radar too, so we can have 5 radars on each team in Randoms (2 missouri and 2-3 radar CAs on each team is NOT uncommon these days).

DDs these days have 2 options: Cap from behind a rock (usually an enemy dd will sit on the other side) or wait for 10-12 mins for ships to die and flee, leaving open caps behind.

 

Please not: Radar isn't hard to play around for me, but it takes forever. But having Random battles turn into the Tier 7 ranked meta would make me leave the game. I'm already on break.

 

34 minutes ago, rvfharrier said:

[...]

Radar is something the MM should both cap and balance across teams, but it's not something that's inherently game breaking and impossible to counter.

Yeah having 2 potentially 1 minute radars on each cap or PERMANENT radar on one cap is no problem at all.

You realize it takes less than 3 mins for the radar to come back up, meaning there physically isn't enough time to cap in the window between 2 chained DM or missouri radars?

See above. 

 

18 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

When one cap is phat with radar and planes there's usually two others that aren't. Go there. Let the radar cruisers be the problem of your allied cruisers and/or BBs...

Patience and a more tactical approach to the game help a lot...

see above

1a) Usually MM has as many radar ships as caps, so the only reason your statement would be true is if the red team lemmingtrains to one cap.

1b) Smart radar CAs position to cover 2 caps at once since radar has enough range to reach both.

2) Missouri is no CA

3) radar cruisers are gonna camp behind islands, good luck dislodging them when BBs are camping 15 km from caps.

 

[Wildf1re]

45 minutes ago, darky_fighter said:

You often don't know when radar duration ends, radar cool down is a short time period and even DDs are slow so I don't use this cool down time very often. It is often a bad chance-risk-situation.

I usually play the safe way: I spot the radar cruiser and I press F3.

He, does that work for you? Maybe I've been unlucky but my team generally seems to vanish and hide such a dangerous ship amd aksed to support ;).

[AmazingBeaver]

Radar is not a problem, map, team lineup and awaresness of your surroundings is what kills DD's in early game.

[rvfharrier]

54 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Yeah having 2 potentially 1 minute radars on each cap or PERMANENT radar on one cap is no problem at all.

You realize it takes less than 3 mins for the radar to come back up, meaning there physically isn't enough time to cap in the window between 2 chained DM or missouri radars?

See above.

 

If two enemy Des Moines are contesting a cap, you probably shouldn't be trying to contest it with them in the first place!

 

Radar is certainly powerful, but it really isn't inherently game breaking. As I said though, it should be capped and balanced, probably at two per team, in order to keep it reasonable. No DDs, not even those who argue radar isn't that bad, enjoy games where the enemy has 5 radar ships.

[Nechrom]

Radar is a lazy gimmick to try and empower cruisers more as DD hunters.

One of the worst ways to accomplish this.

Not only is it an unimaginative and boring mechanic, but it also hits a class and specific subset of that class which really didn't need another nerf.

 

Punishing daring and active DD play and promoting passive backline max range torping and smoke spam.

 

I worry much more when WG implements stuff like this than when the introduce something OP.

Stuff can always be balanced later, but I seriously doubt WG has the balls to roll back an entire mechanic which they've fused into several premium ships, no matter how bad it is.

This is also why the collective community mentality sucks. Because they'll let any stupid badly designed idea through as long as it buffs the perceived weak ships. And they'll fight to the death to keep really good and solid changes from being implemented if there is even a chance that they will negatively impact those "weaker" ships.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

13 hours ago, Wildf1re said:

...Oh, how I hate surveilance radar...

 

 

Oh, well. That was todays cry... Just needed to vent a bit. Thanks :)

 

 

 

Venting is fine, but as for radar... it isn't going to be removed from the game.  I personally believe WG wants to add more of it, especially to DDs and BBs.  They may 'modify' it in the future, the far future, but that is it.

[Wildf1re]

49 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Venting is fine, but as for radar... it isn't going to be removed from the game.  I personally believe WG wants to add more of it, especially to DDs and BBs.  They may 'modify' it in the future, the far future, but that is it.

Well... if you don't try to do something, raise a concern, you can be sure nothings going to happen... So, I express my concern.

As for removing radar, hmm, that does not neccesarily have to the solution. I belive it's breaking DD gameplay as its implemented now, too many ships have it and its too powerfull, I mean even a BB have it ... Removing it would be an "easy" quick fix (I can at least hope:), altering how it works and how many ships have it, another way to do it.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

22 minutes ago, Wildf1re said:

Well... if you don't try to do something, raise a concern, you can be sure nothings going to happen... So, I express my concern.

As for removing radar, hmm, that does not neccesarily have to the solution. I belive it's breaking DD gameplay as its implemented now, too many ships have it and its too powerfull, I mean even a BB have it ... Removing it would be an "easy" quick fix (I can at least hope:), altering how it works and how many ships have it, another way to do it.

If WG removed it (from non-premium ships) it would be admitting a mistake; a rather large game design/balancing mistake, but I don't believe they see it as a mistake.

 

Altering it might happen sometime in the future.

[creamgravy]

The fun core gameplay is still intact at lower tiers. 

[mtm78]

16 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

The fun core gameplay is still intact at lower tiers. 

 

But CW will be tier X and I need to grind some lines still... :( 

 

I don't even like Kebab when I know it's a strong cruiser.. tier X meta is still broken / boring as heck. 

 

edit: not that my Kebab experience is influenced by radars btw, I don't kemp smoke :)