0.6.12 Changes in Ship Detection Mechanics

[Ph3lan]

Captains,

 

Please share all general feedback regarding the changes in ship detection mechanics below!

[Hugh_Ruka]

Have not played yet, just checked the new smoke detection numbers ... for firing in smoke:

 

Kiev - 3.5
Tashkent - 3.7
Khabarovsk - 4.1

 

Udaloi - 3.3
Grozovoi - 2.9

 

Gearing - 2.8

 

Shima - 2.8

 

Z-23 - 3.4 (6" guns are the same)
Z-46 - 2.8
Z-52 - 2.9

 

4.1 km on the Khabarovsk ? 3.7 for Tashkent ? That's more than the 6" guns on the Z-23 !!! Also all the DDs have a progression in tier 8-9-10, just the Udaloi is WORSE than his direct T10 follower. WHY ? Gun caliber is the same and the Grozo can achieve a heavier volume of fire due to the better reload time.

 

One other observation (might be a bug), but why is the Z-23 detection the same for both gun calibers ? At least the UI shows the same number in port.

[eliastion]

19 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

(...)Also all the DDs have a progression in tier 8-9-10, just the Udaloi is WORSE than his direct T10 follower. WHY ? Gun caliber is the same and the Grozo can achieve a heavier volume of fire due to the better reload time.

(...)

Well, Udaloi in general sucks in concealment department - it's still one of the "cruiser without citadel" soviet DDs while Grozovoi gets proper DD concealment, not only when firing from smoke but under normal open water circumstances as well.

[Hugh_Ruka]

2 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Well, Udaloi in general sucks in concealment department - it's still one of the "cruiser without citadel" soviet DDs while Grozovoi gets proper DD concealment, not only when firing from smoke but under normal open water circumstances as well.

 

That does not have anything to do with this, since detection in smoke while NOT firing is the same for all DDs. A full concealment Udaloi is only about 1km worse than a Grozo (7.3 vs 6.1 iirc).

 

Also that argument of yours does not hold as the detection in smoke when not firing is the same for all DDs, their concealment is not taken into account there. Either it is based on gun caliber and number of guns, or it is based on concealment (but then why is the Akizuki better than Benson while having worse concealment ?).

 

All in all, this is another arbitrary parameter that can be used to change selected ships without any consistency or logic behind it.

[LilJumpa]

27 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

 

 

All in all, this is another arbitrary parameter that can be used to change selected ships without any consistency or logic behind it.

 

There is a logic and a formula behind it.

Variables are base concealment and gun caliber.

 

Z23 is treated like the Mogami in this regard and will always have the 150mm guns ase base value

 

Base Concealment:

Kiev 9km

Tash 9.4

Khaba: 10

Udaloi: 8.6

Grozo: 7.6

(all have the same guns 130mm)

 

Z23: 7.9 (150mm)

Z46: 7.6 (128mm)

Z52: 7.7 (128mm)

[eliastion]

36 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

That does not have anything to do with this, since detection in smoke while NOT firing is the same for all DDs. A full concealment Udaloi is only about 1km worse than a Grozo (7.3 vs 6.1 iirc).

Your information is outdated - Grozovoi fully specced for stealth has 5,9 km detectability.

 

36 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Also that argument of yours does not hold as the detection in smoke when not firing is the same for all DDs, their concealment is not taken into account there. Either it is based on gun caliber and number of guns, or it is based on concealment (but then why is the Akizuki better than Benson while having worse concealment ?).

As you probably noticed, the values are set on ship-by-ship basis. General stealthiness is apparently a consideration. But that doesn't mean that gun caliber is disregarded. Because (surprise, surprise) people can make decisions based on more than one factor. And the fact that in smoke (when not firing) their concealment is the same? Guess what: Yamato has the same concealment as them. And, actually, can fire her 155 mm secondaries without any penalty, talk about injustice 

In general the more stealthy the ship, the less visible after firing from smoke. In general the smaller the guns: again, the less visible she is. In case of Udaloi-Grozovoi comparison, it's two ships with the same gun caliber and one of them being SIGNIFICANTLY stealthier. And with the same caliber, the guns are actually different, with different characteristics (Grozovoi's don't only fire quicker but they do less damage - might as well have a less pronounced muzzle flash, if you want some "logical" explanation here).

 

Frankly, I find it strange that you find it strange that she's also less visible when firing from smoke... Grozovoi is a DD, has DD concealment (can't be said about the rest of high tier soviet DDs) and so she also enjoys the concealment while firing from smoke comparable to that commonly seen among other nations' high tier DDs. It's pretty straightforward. The only surprising thing you pick out is the lack of distinction between Z-23 gun calibers - looking at other Z's it certainly seems like the thing should be less visible with her smaller guns.

[Hugh_Ruka]

1 hour ago, eliastion said:

Your information is outdated - Grozovoi fully specced for stealth has 5,9 km detectability.

 

As you probably noticed, the values are set on ship-by-ship basis. General stealthiness is apparently a consideration. But that doesn't mean that gun caliber is disregarded. Because (surprise, surprise) people can make decisions based on more than one factor. And the fact that in smoke (when not firing) their concealment is the same? Guess what: Yamato has the same concealment as them. And, actually, can fire her 155 mm secondaries without any penalty, talk about injustice 

In general the more stealthy the ship, the less visible after firing from smoke. In general the smaller the guns: again, the less visible she is. In case of Udaloi-Grozovoi comparison, it's two ships with the same gun caliber and one of them being SIGNIFICANTLY stealthier. And with the same caliber, the guns are actually different, with different characteristics (Grozovoi's don't only fire quicker but they do less damage - might as well have a less pronounced muzzle flash, if you want some "logical" explanation here).

 

Frankly, I find it strange that you find it strange that she's also less visible when firing from smoke... Grozovoi is a DD, has DD concealment (can't be said about the rest of high tier soviet DDs) and so she also enjoys the concealment while firing from smoke comparable to that commonly seen among other nations' high tier DDs. It's pretty straightforward. The only surprising thing you pick out is the lack of distinction between Z-23 gun calibers - looking at other Z's it certainly seems like the thing should be less visible with her smaller guns.

 

have you seen Grozo and Udaloi side by side, or Tashkent for that matter ? Udaloi is the smallest of them !!! And it has the smallest turning circle because of that. You Yamato example is one of the things I'd like to see changed with the smoke stuff as well ... make assured detection of cruisers and BBs 3 and 4km (or rather 3 and 5km) and then the system is somehow fair (tbh we won's need the smoke firing mechanic with that change implemented as it will be trivial for a DD to approach a smoked up larger ship and torp the hell out of them).

 

What I am getting at is that the numbers are completely arbitrary and there is no system or reason behind them. Not to point out that the whole smoke firing stuff is utter BS. There are several better ways to fix the problem.

[Hugh_Ruka]

1 hour ago, LilJumpa said:

 

There is a logic and a formula behind it.

Variables are base concealment and gun caliber.

 

Z23 is treated like the Mogami in this regard and will always have the 150mm guns ase base value

 

Base Concealment:

Kiev 9km

Tash 9.4

Khaba: 10

Udaloi: 8.6

Grozo: 7.6

(all have the same guns 130mm)

 

Z23: 7.9 (150mm)

Z46: 7.6 (128mm)

Z52: 7.7 (128mm)

 

if the change in detection is triggered by firing the gun then there is no logical reason to factor in normal surface detection. in the old detection mechanics, the firing penalty was constant per ship line/nation, there was no difference between ships and it was a more reasonable system.

[LilJumpa]

4 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

 

if the change in detection is triggered by firing the gun then there is no logical reason to factor in normal surface detection. in the old detection mechanics, the firing penalty was constant per ship line/nation, there was no difference between ships and it was a more reasonable system.

 

The former system added caliberx20 m to your surface detection range. So the base detection played a similar role.

[Hugh_Ruka]

Just a hypothetical:

 

Imagine a Gearing vs Khaba in the same smoke. Both are searching for each other, or rather Khaba has shot at targets outside the smoke and killed them, his detection is still 4.1km. Now the Gearing arrives, spots him at 4.1km and starts shooting. Gearing has a 1.3km stealthfire buffer where the Khaba can do nothing about it. So basically WG is reinstroducing stealthfiring when smoke is involved.

 

Generally the smoke screens are quite small, but I have encountered scenarios where while hunting a smoked up DD based on assured detection, I was well inside his smoke when I detected him.

[wilkatis_LV]

Short summary of smokescreen / vision changes:

Smokescreens don't obscure vision, they just reduce it. DDs and CLs can spot for themselves (a.k.a. with noone spotting for them) while sitting inside a smokescreen and fire at CAs and BBs outside of that without getting spotted in return.

Do CAs really need this kind of a nerf? They get blown up left right and center every game already, do we really need to go to the point where you have just 2 choices as a cruiser - hang back as far as possible in a CA or just go play RN CLs?

Do we really need even more ways how to discourage BBs from pushing with the team and encourage them to sit back at 20+km trying to snipe something?

This just makes no sense, fingers crossed this never makes to live server

 

/shameless self promotion below/

Spoiler

Made a few videos showcasing these changes, explaining how they work (or rather seem to work), and explaining why I don't like this idea.

Link to the relevant forum post:

 

 

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 10/11/2017 at 9:38 AM, wilkatis_LV said:

Short summary of smokescreen / vision changes:

Smokescreens don't obscure vision, they just reduce it. DDs and CLs can spot for themselves (a.k.a. with noone spotting for them) while sitting inside a smokescreen and fire at CAs and BBs outside of that without getting spotted in return.

Do CAs really need this kind of a nerf? They get blown up left right and center every game already, do we really need to go to the point where you have just 2 choices as a cruiser - hang back as far as possible in a CA or just go play RN CLs?

Do we really need even more ways how to discourage BBs from pushing with the team and encourage them to sit back at 20+km trying to snipe something?

This just makes no sense, fingers crossed this never makes to live server

 

/shameless self promotion below/

  Hide contents

Made a few videos showcasing these changes, explaining how they work (or rather seem to work), and explaining why I don't like this idea.

Link to the relevant forum post:

 

 

 

OMG, so I was right, they reintroduced stealth firing. I don't need people to spot that nasty BB/CA that made me smoke up in my DD because they popped out from behind an island. I can happily shoot and torp them from my smoke without anybody else providing vision ... EXCELENT JOB WG !!!

[wilkatis_LV]

5 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

 

OMG, so I was right, they reintroduced stealth firing. I don't need people to spot that nasty BB/CA that made me smoke up in my DD because they popped out from behind an island. I can happily shoot and torp them from my smoke without anybody else providing vision ... EXCELENT JOB WG !!!

 

With the only rule being that they fire their main batteries at least once every 20 seconds. But yeah, that's pretty much the case

[flip_66]

To be honest I don't quite understand why all this is necessary. Yes, a smoked up BB is a serious threat and should not be entirely invisible, but apart from that I don't quite see issues with the smoke mechanics. Of course Belfast and MK are OP but that is mainly because WG failed to balance them right. Especially CAs, that will suffer the most if these changes go live, really are NOT the biggest issue of this game. Or does anyone s*** his pants when a Hindenburg, Moskva, Henri or Des Moines hits the battlefield?!

 

My advice: Make these changes influence BBs only, leave the rest as it is and if you don't I demand a refund on my Belfast because I certainly don't pay actual money on something that gets nerfed a few months later.

[G4tt4B0]

Does anyone know values after shot for RN cruisers please? That is my concern as if this change makes them visible too much, I can throw them away as smoke is their only tactics being instantly deleted once spotted. They definitely don't need a nerf looking at numbers and by experience (playing them and against too). Is there anything in return for this branch killing patch to make these ships last longer than 5min in the game? BTW I already regret paying for Mutsu and Kii (thanks to their frustrating gun dispersions making them no fun to play) and this is about to make me regret investing in Belfast recently...

[wilkatis_LV]

2 hours ago, G4tt4B0 said:

Does anyone know values after shot for RN cruisers please? That is my concern as if this change makes them visible too much, I can throw them away as smoke is their only tactics being instantly deleted once spotted. They definitely don't need a nerf looking at numbers and by experience (playing them and against too). Is there anything in return for this branch killing patch to make these ships last longer than 5min in the game? BTW I already regret paying for Mutsu and Kii (thanks to their frustrating gun dispersions making them no fun to play) and this is about to make me regret investing in Belfast recently...

Edinburgh is 5.5km, Minotaur is 5.4km. Others are probably more or less the same.

CLs don't get screwed, you could almost even call this sort of a buff to them. CAs are getting wrecked by this.

---

What do you mean by putting "Kii" and "frustrating gun dispersion" together? It's a sniper just like the Amagi is.

And don't worry your pretty little head about playing your Payfast, it's still the Pay-to-win choice of this game.

[G4tt4B0]

Ok, thanks. This sounds reasonable and not much to be worried about then.

Re kii - you are a bad joker 'sniping guns' lolling like hell. That is by far not only my experience, maybe watch cc's reviews for confirmation. Amagi is noticeably more rewarding. You wouldnt believe what you can miss with kii's 10shots salvoes... 

[flip_66]

16 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

Hahaha, go [censoring myself here] yourself mate with this one. Shove a fork up where the sun doesn't shine

 

Lul what? Are you out of your mind? I tried to discuss an issue here, no need to be insultive. Besides I don't get how you cannot see how dominant BBs and how underwhelming CAs are right at the moment. 

[Uriens_The_Gray]

On 13.10.2017 at 3:09 PM, Flipped_Out said:

 

Lul what? Are you out of your mind? I tried to discuss an issue here, no need to be insultive. Besides I don't get how you cannot see how dominant BBs and how underwhelming CAs are right at the moment. 

 

Dominant BBs ?? Kidding me ?? By the way, that was the worst advice we ever had to read.

[flip_66]

14 hours ago, Uriens_The_Gray said:

 

Dominant BBs ?? Kidding me ?? By the way, that was the worst advice we ever had to read.

 

So tell me why did you do half of your battles in a BB? Because they are so weak? Just because you cannot play them does not mean it's a bad ship class. Besides 647 WTR / 46 percent WR people maaaaybe should not lean out of the window too much.

 

I think I'm not the only player who considers BBs to be dominant even though I like playing them as well. In this thread we should try to be constructive and not just try to push our favourite ship class. There is a reason why most bad players chose BBs over DDs and cruisers.

[wilkatis_LV]

1 hour ago, Flipped_Out said:

 

So tell me why did you do half of your battles in a BB? Because they are so weak? Just because you cannot play them does not mean it's a bad ship class. Besides 647 WTR / 46 percent WR people maaaaybe should not lean out of the window too much.

 

I think I'm not the only player who considers BBs to be dominant even though I like playing them as well. In this thread we should try to be constructive and not just try to push our favourite ship class. There is a reason why most bad players chose BBs over DDs and cruisers.

 

So you mean Shima is the best tier 10 DD because we see 2...4 Shimas every game?

Just because many people play them doesn't mean the class is any kind of impactful. To be fair, I fail to see how hugging map border and doing absolutely nothing counts as impactful in the first place.

 

Also by your "nerf only BBs concealment"  idea - I'd like to hear your opinion on how this would help to reduce the camping windowlickers 20km behind you. Go ahead, take a shot at that.

---

This change is stupid through and through, and never should see the light of a live server. Nice that WG tried, but this clearly is a fail.

[Uriens_The_Gray]

4 hours ago, Flipped_Out said:

In this thread we should try to be constructive and ...

 

Yes indeed, you really should listen to yourself and start trying.

[flip_66]

3 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

So you mean Shima is the best tier 10 DD because we see 2...4 Shimas every game?

 

I never said anything even resembling to this. Still this guy obviously has fun in playing BBs which he clearly wouldn't do if all BBs were underwhelming. In my opinion he just does not want to get BBs nerfed.

 

3 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Also by your "nerf only BBs concealment"  idea - I'd like to hear your opinion on how this would help to reduce the camping windowlickers 20km behind you.

 

So? Who ever said that smoke screen nerfs are made to prevent BBs from camping at the red line? Of course map border campers are a huge issue but then again we were not discussing that, right?

 

7 minutes ago, Uriens_The_Gray said:

Yes indeed, you really should listen to yourself and start trying.

 

I did, all I got from you are stupid insults and claims that are highly dubious.

[wilkatis_LV]

5 minutes ago, Flipped_Out said:

 

I never said anything even resembling to this. Still this guy obviously has fun in playing BBs which he clearly wouldn't do if all BBs were underwhelming. In my opinion he just does not want to get BBs nerfed.

 

 

So? Who ever said that smoke screen nerfs are made to prevent BBs from camping at the red line? Of course map border campers are a huge issue but then again we were not discussing that, right?

 

 

I did, all I got from you are stupid insults and claims that are highly dubious.

 

Yes you did. "every game we have 5 BBs per side so they must be dominant" is pretty much the same as "every game we have multiple shimas in the match so they must be dominant". Or does it not apply because you wished to find a dumb reason why to cry about BBs and Shima is a DD?

---

Yes I enjoy playing BBs. Because if I play as agressive as I do in any other ship class my average lifespan would be around 1 minute. Is there a BB who needs a nerf? I don't see why RN tier 3 and 4 need 85mm HE pen, so I guess those could go with a nerf maybe? Nothing else really. Conq is so strong only as long as people keep attacking him at his strongest, a.k.a. they keep spamming HE at it

---

There are people who aren't [insert a swearword] at this game while playing BBs, and they tend to push ahead with their team. Guess what happens when they get focused down? They need to hide and heal up. That's where the smokescreen would come in handy. Oh, but you can't use smoke anymore? Well, might aswell stay back, no reason for me to push up and just die trying to work as a team if I can hope for a lucky hit from 20km while being completely safe.

---

Hey, it was your stupid idea that these changes should be applied, let me quote,

On 10/12/2017 at 8:25 PM, Flipped_Out said:

My advice: Make these changes influence BBs only

was it not?

[flip_66]

5 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Yes you did. "every game we have 5 BBs per side so they must be dominant"

 

LOL, I never even said that :D Now you're lying to prove your point? That is lame mate, you should go into politics. 

 

6 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Is there a BB who needs a nerf?

 

Yes, Tier 8 to 10 RN BBs definitely need several nerfs but that's another story. Spamming HE at a Monqueror doesn't help anything because of the retard super heal (maybe you should learn something about the game mechanics?).

 

7 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Guess what happens when they get focused down? They need to hide and heal up. That's where the smokescreen would come in handy. Oh, but you can't use smoke anymore? Well, might aswell stay back, no reason for me to push up and just die trying to work as a team if I can hope for a lucky hit from 20km while being completely safe.

 

Put concealment expert and concealment equipment on your BB and you're fine doing that. Or you just can use the terrain. OR you just can STILL USE smoke screens. WG doesn't remove it all together, they just nerf it a little so you can't just sit 4 km ahead of an enemy and fire 12 huge guns without being detected. There is still several ways to compensate for a SLIGHT nerf, no need to swear like a BB fanboy you are.