Giulio Cesare's dispersion nerf

[ItalianSupremacy]

As many of you know, WG testers have raised the initial 138 m dispersion of Giulio Cesare to 226 mt. I was going to buy this ship and I was expecting they would have increased its dispersion before its release (it was really too op that way), but obviously not that much. This is making me (and I suppose most of those who wanted to buy this ship) change my mind about this purchase.  I hope they will lower a bit that value before starting its selling. In my view a value of 180-190 mt would be the right choice..what is your opinion? Thanks all in advance for your time and for sharing your points of view :)

[Klopirat]

a ship that isn't released cannot be nerfed...

[Ghostychan]

I think it was the right decision to change the dispersion to 226m

Now she has just as much dispersion as every other BB at Tier V, while still being a fast BB, which is worth a lot.

[Historynerd]

12 minutes ago, Klopirat said:

a ship that isn't released cannot be nerfed...

Not to the public, but it did appear for super and live testing. And, if it appeared first with given stats, and these stats were changed to, in WG's own words, "reduce the ship's excessive efficiency", then it's correct to call it a nerf.

 

11 minutes ago, Ghostychan said:

I think it was the right decision to change the dispersion to 226m

Now she has just as much dispersion as every other BB at Tier V, while still being a fast BB, which is worth a lot.

Ridicolous.

No other Tier 5 BB has the same sigma (1.5 versus 1.8), and she has one of the worst ranges, to boot. Meaning that she is probably now the least accurate Tier 5 BB.

We'll see, as soon as testers release footage of it in its new form.

[WeGreedy]

Like @Ghostychan said, now she's more in line with the other battleships on tier five.

But they will definitely have to do something with that sigma value now. 

[Historynerd]

1 minute ago, SeeteufeI said:

Like @Ghostychan said, now she's more in line with the other battleships on tier five.

But they will definitely have to do something with that sigma value now. 

Then, if she needs to have her sigma tweaked, are you admitting she's not quite in line with the other BBs at her Tier? 

[WeGreedy]

1 minute ago, Historynerd said:

Then, if she needs to have her sigma tweaked, are you admitting she's not quite in line with the other BBs at her Tier? 

OP was talking about dispersion, so did I.

Of course they will change her sigma now. At least I hope so... 

[Exocet6951]

2 minutes ago, Historynerd said:

Not to the public, but it did appear for super and live testing. And, if it appeared first with given stats, and these stats were changed for, in WG's own words, "reduce the ship's excessive efficiency", then it's correct to call it a nerf.

 

Ridicolous.

No other Tier 5 BB has the same sigma (1.5 versus 1.8), and she has one of the worst ranges, to boot. Meaning that she is probably now the least accurate Tier 5 BB.

We'll see, as soon as testers release footage of it in its new form.

 

Least accurate, one of the least reliable armor, all the disadvantages of low caliber guns with none of the special AP fuze rules of the 305s.
A hefty price to pay for having good concealment (that no one actually wanted) and above average speed.

 

I find it hard to believe it'll go into the live server in this state.

[JanVonKrang]

Got your same ideas ItalianSupremacy ;) 

[SparvieroVV]

Kii just went on sale and October Revolution campaign is coming up. Maybe next month and most likely November, no? 

 

The problem a few of us had is there where other options that could have been tried for dealing with how the Cesare interacted with cruisers that would not have hurt its ability to deal with other battleships. Now the solution is to fire HE at range, start a fire and wait for gun bloom to dissipate. Rinse and repeat. 

[SparvieroVV]

@Exocet6951

 

what are the special fuse rules of the 305? I’m unfamiliar with these. German 1/4 HE?

[Nechrom]

15 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

A hefty price to pay for having good concealment (that no one actually wanted) and above average speed.

 

Speaking of which, that's the same concealment as the October Revolution if that's the thing you're after. 

[ItalianSupremacy]

3 minutes ago, JanVonKrang said:

Got your same ideas ItalianSupremacy ;) 

Thanks man :) (It wouldn't be that bad a division with the ships of our profiles' pics :D )

[JanVonKrang]

2 minutes ago, ItalianSupremacy said:

Thanks man :) (It wouldn't be that bad a division with the ships of our profiles' pics :D )

Sure, as soon as they release Roma :-) 

[Exocet6951]

16 minutes ago, SparvieroVV said:

@Exocet6951

 

what are the special fuse rules of the 305? I’m unfamiliar with these. German 1/4 HE?

 

Well the Germans do have that 1/4 HE, but 305mm AP in general has more sensitive fuzes, and explodes faster than bigger guns.

A regular 356mm AP shell will explode 0.033 seconds after the fuze is activated, while a 305mm AP shell will only take 0.01 second.
Add to that the fact that 305mm AP is much lighter and thus loses more speed, you have shells that tend to overpen less. The disadvantage being that citpenning is that much harder to do, as you have increased risk of the shell exploding before penetrating the citadel. You trade more regular pens for less citpens.

320mm AP doesn't have that.
Its standard BB-caliber AP rules, but with a smaller, lighter shell.

 

 

Speaking of which, that's the same concealment as the October Revolution if that's the thing you're after. 

 

But with that ugly as sin camo, if it's spotted it's "priority shoot on sight" 

[Nechrom]

2 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Well the Germans do have that 1/4 HE, but 305mm AP has more sensitive fuzes, and explodes faster than bigger guns.

A regular 356mm AP shell will explode 0.033 seconds after the fuze is activated, while a 305mm AP shell will only take 0.01 second.
Add to that the fact that 305mm AP is much lighter and thus loses more speed, you have shells that tend to overpen less. The disadvantage being that citpenning is that much harder to do, as you have increased risk of the shell exploding before penetrating the citadel. You trade more regular pens for less citpens.

320mm AP doesn't have that.
Its standard BB-caliber AP rules, but with a smaller, lighter shell.

 

But fuse delay doesn't do much for BB calibers anyway because the arming threshold is so big.

For the most part on targets where you need a short fuse delay in order to not overpenetrate, you also don't have enough armor to activate the fuse in the first place.

Almost all overpenetrations happen because the shell never armed.

[SparvieroVV]

Which is an option WG could have looked into. Italian AP shells did historically overpen lightly armored vessels without fusing. 

[Exocet6951]

11 minutes ago, Nechrom said:

 

But fuse delay doesn't do much for BB calibers anyway because the arming threshold is so big.

For the most part on targets where you need a short fuse delay in order to not overpenetrate, you also don't have enough armor to activate the fuse in the first place.

Almost all overpenetrations happen because the shell never armed.

 

Considering that the armor threshold takes into account effective armor rather than nominal value, it's quite quickly achieved. It's one of the reasons why DDs are taking so much AP damage.
All you need is 51mm of effective armor for 305mm guns.
The distance alone makes the shells plunge thus give some vertical angle, so even hitting 16mm plating while the target is angled a bit means you get a regular pen.
It's why if I'm in a DD and a BB aims at me, my first instinct is to go full broadside.

 

While it won't help to get regular pens against a broadsiding DD, it will certainly do so for an slightly angled cruiser or BB.

It's why the Konig is topping the damage charts despite having the smallest, least accurate guns.
You point, shoot, and your shells will ultimately find some odd angle on the superstructure that results in 51mm of effective armor.
 

[Nechrom]

4 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Considering that the armor threshold takes into account effective armor rather than nominal value, it's quite quickly achieved. It's one of the reasons why DDs are taking so much AP damage.
All you need is 51mm of effective armor for 305mm guns.
The distance alone makes the shells plunge thus give some vertical angle, so even hitting 16mm plating while the target is angled a bit means you get a regular pen.
It's why if I'm in a DD and a BB aims at me, my first instinct is to go full broadside.

 

While it won't help against a broadsiding DD, it will certainly do so for an slightly angled cruiser or BB.

It's why the Konig is topping the damage charts despite having the smallest, least accurate guns.
 

 

But as the effective armor increases, so does the distance the shell travels inside the ship by the same factor.

To make 16mm of armor into 51mm of effective armor, that would require an angle of 72°. That puts the effective beam of a Fubuki at 33.15m which is wider than the hull of a Scharnhorst at it's widest point.

Let's just say that when your BB shell fuses, the 0.033s delay is low enough in almost every case.

[Jethro_Grey]

Oh my, the ship isn't released yet and we already have whine in two threads.

 

I prefer ships not to be OP on release, this applies of course to silver ships and sure as hell to premiums which can't be nerfed afterwards.

Should GC need a buff after release, i'm pretty sure they gonna guff it.

 

I can't see any effin reason why this BB should have cruiser dispersion in the first place, so i consider this change to be good riddance.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

It needs the dispersion to not be another boring T5 BB. 

Make the armor cruiser-like instead, don't care, still exciting. 

[Historynerd]

38 minutes ago, Jethro_Grey said:

Oh my, the ship isn't released yet and we already have whine in two threads.

 

I prefer ships not to be OP on release, this applies of course to silver ships and sure as hell to premiums which can't be nerfed afterwards.

Should GC need a buff after release, i'm pretty sure they gonna guff it.

 

I can't see any effin reason why this BB should have cruiser dispersion in the first place, so i consider this change to be good riddance.

And I prefer ships not to be UP when released, as it is likely the Cesare will be with this nerf.

This is from one extreme to another. If before she was ridicolously accurate, now it's likely going to be damned inaccurate.

Also, allow me to say that your logic to wait for the ship to be released before commenting on her stats eludes me. This seems the appropriate time to say wheter a ship is either OP or UP; or else, should all the people who complained of its guns before the nerf have not said anything, since it was not yet released?

[puxflacet]

1.5 sigma - it seems to me that many people here dont realize this. thats the reason why she had that tight dispersion. these rebored 320mm guns had some issues irl and wg probably wanted to mimic it, but they went overboard. (i would like to know who is doing testing for them...) yeah, 138m dispersion was way to much, but so is 226m, because that's fuso's accuracy with 2 less guns, do i have to say more? 138m was such tight dispersion that the sigma really didnt matter, but when you widen it to 226m that will be whole another story. i think that the ideal dispersion would be like 190m

 

EDIT: sigma changed to 1.9 recently

[Exocet6951]

1 hour ago, Nechrom said:

 

But as the effective armor increases, so does the distance the shell travels inside the ship by the same factor.

To make 16mm of armor into 51mm of effective armor, that would require an angle of 72°. That puts the effective beam of a Fubuki at 33.15m which is wider than the hull of a Scharnhorst at it's widest point.

Let's just say that when your BB shell fuses, the 0.033s delay is low enough in almost every case.

 

Ah but you see, it's not just a horizontal angle that's taken into account, it's also a vertical angle.
 

But all of this is just theorycrafting.
We can see the effects in practice ingame, and the results speak for themselves: 283 and 305mm guns overpen less, but they do shatter more.

[SparvieroVV]

9 minutes ago, puxflacet said:

1.5 sigma - it seems to me that many people here dont realize this. thats the reason why she had that tight dispersion. these rebored 320mm guns had some issues irl and wg probably wanted to mimic it, but they went overboard. (i would like to know who is doing testing for them...) yeah, 138m dispersion was way to much, but so is 226m, because that's fuso's accuracy with 2 less guns, do i have to say more? ideal dispersion would be 190m

 

Fuso has several kilometers on Giulio Cesare so in fact at Giulio Cesare's effective range Fuso, blessed be the Pagoda to Heaven™ , is even better. Kongo which is of the same tier as GC also enjoys a 21 km range. 

 

To just roll back once again...with feeling?

 

• Everyone agrees that GGCC appeared to seal club unaware low tier cruisers and destroyers, yes?
• Videos did not show the same issue with battleships or cruisers that figured out WASD.
• The videos mostly showed unfocused ships sitting back picking off targets of opportunity.
• Videos showed salvos of underwhelming damage rolls against battleships with the occasional citadel.

From what I have gathered there are several options.

 

• Per @phoenix_jz the 320/44 performs at Dunkerque levels sans penetration numbers. Reduce AP Alpha to ~9300, HE alpha in 4000 range(?) burn chance to ~22%. 
• Fuse settings can be adjusted, we have seen this for the British ships benefits. Longer fuses to allow more overpens of cruisers and destroyers. Fuse settings requiring a higher effective armor amount to initiate. Based off historical AP fuses that did require a higher level of force to initiate. WG has already initiated such changes to allow destroyers to survive battleship AP better.
• Modest dispersion adjustment. Enough to allow good groupings against battleships however still allow angled/dodging cruisers to miss/bounce full salvos.
• Modest increase of concealment.

 

The initial correction taken only reinforces the hunting of cruisers and RNBB HE spam. The dispersion now means it is easier to cause damage to cruisers by getting as close as possible and using AP or simply just ignore AP and burn everything ala RNBB Theory™.  When fighting other battleships you are already in a bad way with less range, less striking power and less armor. That means the best course of action is set fires and cloak, taking advantage of maneuverability. This is my takeaway. I'm not saying I'm correct. Obviously I'm not the game designer rolling in the rubles. Also I'm most likely buying this ship on EU and NA servers so it really doesn't matter what I think. It's about getting other people to go full:

 

I don't believe any RMI fan wants an OP ship, we want a decent ship. I will be happy to be proven wrong about the initial Balans Pass™!