Is this how you should be treated as a player and a customer? And is this is a community we want to have?

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Hello,
So, some time ago we had a small but interesting discussion about some issues going on in the game at the time. For reference, check the topic below:

However, anything that was written in that topic is just trampled by the new info we just received yesterday - Clan Wars are starting. For those who are still unaware of that annoucement, here you have a link:
https://worldofwarships.eu/pl/news/common/clash-of-clans/

Allrighty, so let's get down to business. Gonna tag some of WG employees here, so maybe they can shed some light into this glorious annoucement @Tuccy @Ev1n @Sub_Octavian @MrConway @Kandly - feel free to tag your regional CC's, CM's and whatnot so we can actually have a decent debate here.

Aight, so, after few long years, after Team Battles, after 7 seasons of Ranked Games, after PvE content vastly expanded, Wargaming finally decided to introduce Clan Wars.
Now let me just divide this annoucement bit by bit and talk about few things there:
 

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The 7x7 format, that proved to be successful for all seasons of Ranked Battles, offers two undeniable advantages. First, it provides balance when it comes to assembling a team, i.e. even a small clan can regularly send 7 players into the battle. Second, 7x7 battles are a little more dynamic. They make a good balance between personal skill and team play, and they are less prone to excessive effect of concentrated fire when the first detected ship gets almost instantly destroyed by concentrated enemy fire.

Calling 7x7 format successful is a bit of a overstatement. It's "viable" but hardly the best way to experience the game. But, overall, 7 v 7 is ok. I don't have much beef with that setting. It's a bit limiting tho, so games might be getting boring pretty fast. I would choose 9 v 9 games, but I'm also eager to try smaller format. However, the last sentence which I bolded out, coupled with following quote:

Quote

The "one battleship" limit is introduced because even two battleships in one team in a 7x7 battle can adversely affect cruisers' ability to actively participate in battle by delivering cross-fire from their high-calibre guns. That said, even one battleship with the help of the teammates can make a great contribution to the team's result, both by "playing its armour" and dealing damage to its natural priority targets—cruisers. Very skilful players will probably make use of the map's terrain and their ship's concealment in order to stay undetected for as long as possible and provide an unpleasant surprise for their enemy.

What the hell is this? Not so long ago, like a month ago, @Sub_Octavian wrote in topic I mentioned at the beginning:

Quote

Tier X cruisers perform very well and adequately comparable to Tier X BBs

And then you go and add a pretty harsh limit on a BB? This just doesn't fit. So if 1/7 is ok for Clan Wars, then why is 5/12 is still considered "ok" and "very well and adequately"? I mean this is just [edited]. Now this is an opinion voiced on forum, so aight, not gonna hold too much value to it, but then again. If in CW annoucement you write that BB's are effectively responsible for  Edited  cruiser gameplay and thus you limited them to only 1 - what should we expect in random games? And I just hate how you impose a limit instead of adressing the problem. Basically, you say BB's are just too strong, but instead of making them more balanced, you just reduce the available numbers of them.

Quote

Clan Battles will be played with Tier X ships. Top tier ships are the most powerful and interesting representatives of their respective branches. These ships usually accumulate the best characteristics and demonstrate authentic game play. All similar-type Tier X ships are well balanced between each other. Each Tier X ship has very distinct strengths and weaknesses, and can fit its own niche in every team. 

However, an evident problem that might arise lies in the fact that it takes long to research a Tier X ship. A lot of players who would like to try Clan Battles might not have Tier X ships. Worry not, we have a solution for this problem—renting! 

Now, renting tier X ships is just a bad idea. But it's not that important. Still, I wanted to point it out. Tier X ships are rewards, are the achievements, are the incentive to play. You need to grind your way through the line, explore the weaknesses and strenghts, learn the quirks of the line etc. The high tier game is a reward for your hard grind. At least, that's my opinion. This is the endgame feature - Clan Wars at tier X are not the best idea, but I get where it came from. Promote the tier X ships and gameplay, find a use for those ships. And I'm ok with that, even if I think tier VIII would be better for competitive games. But this is wrong decision from the start. No, you don't "rent" ships to "casually" play Clan Wars. You grind them and prepare for Clan Wars. You talk about tactics, you try different setups, different captains. Whole idea of Clan Wars is about endgame and a bit more serious attempt, not some casual lulz I gonna jump with my clan and suck balls with 7 x rented Zao. But, like I said early, I think it's not a good idea, but it's not something that will not let me sleep.

 

Now, let's focus on the ultimate fuckup and one of the most irritating and shamefull decision you made:

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Exclusion of the aircraft carriers from the First Season of Clan Battles was one of the hardest decisions we had to take. Unfortunately, tournament observation results and preliminary tests of Clans demonstrated that an aircraft carrier in a well coordinated team provides perfect reconnaissance through the entire map, creates a lot of obstacles for destroyers from the opposing team, and generally makes the battle follow the "everyone sees everyone else" scenario. It goes without saying that such a situation reduces the variability of the battle and the role of torpedo attacks. Besides, there are still very few high tier carriers in the game, and it's quite difficult to learn how to play them well. Moreover, the battles in a contest mode, where all ships are researched and upgraded in the anti-aircraft configuration, and where the carriers are expected to mainly provide reconnaissance, extremely overloaded and exhausted the players. We recognise the advantages and disadvantages of this decision perfectly well. In future, we will be looking for adequate options to use the aircraft carriers as a ship type in Clan Battles.

I just don't even know where to start with bashing this decision. I feel super sorry and super angry and I don't remember the last time I felt I was fucked over in a game like that. After 2 long years, in which clans and communitites started to organize themselves from the beginning, after a lot of events, tournaments and contests organized by players and "clans", you finally realase a feature we were asking for from the beginning. And you blatantly exclude one class from it. So how am I supposed to feel. How my friends are supposed to feel, who invested time, money and a lot of patience, to play Aircraft Carriers, to adapt to constant nerfs to the class, to fight not only with enemy team, but also with bugged and Edited UI just to get a giant middle finger thrown in their face? I won't even mention @Sub_Octavian's remark about CV and their great UI. 
Do you Edited imagine Blizzard coming out, and saying: We know you were grinding Frost Mage a lot these days. You wanted to take that class to Arena to reach Challenger level. Well, Edited . Some of the classes were complaining about you, so you can't play in PvP arenas.
Now, even if we agree that there are problems with CV's that you mentioned (which is actually open for discussion, cause some of the reasons are just bollocks), it's your fault WG that the class is in it's state. Your lack of dedication to making the class playable, lack of skill to balance it, lack of will to reiterate all the UI issues that are bothering CV players. Basically, you just left the class to die, after releasing 2 (and a half - GZ best German CV) premium CV, grabbing money, now you just saying "suck it Edited ". 
Fortunately for me, I'm not maining CV and didn't invest that much time in the class. 500 battles in CV's compared to few thousand in cruisers are very few. Still, I liked them, and grinded IJN CV's pretty hard some time ago. Now I just feel a bit cheated. Players like @papedipupi, @Ishiro32, @Farazelleth, @azell, @MaciejoVietnam and many others who invested a lot of time and money into the class, some of them ESPECIALLY preparing for ANY competitive mode should just feel Edited  robbed. If I were them, I would demand refund of free XP, dubloons, credits, freaking everything because of this decision. This is just shameful way to treat your player (not to mention customer) and I can't recall such distasteful decision made in any other title I played for some time.
I know this basically means nothing, but if this indeed will be the way CW's are introduced, I happily resign from my CC title, cause I'm not gonna support company who does such stuff to community.

Now, the second issue:

Quote

Worst part is I'm being told the reason WG decided to exclude CVs is because clans involved in the testing that don't have good CV-players supported this decision. So one of the reason we get this shitfest is because clans who haven't been able to win tournaments with all classes included want to exclude the class they perform the worst in.

I don't know which clans were testing it, and which clans supported their decision, but to those clan leaders - a big, warm [edited]YOU. Instead of standing with community, instead of insisting that the class in question was properly balanced, developed and finally received the attention it deserves, you went with your own interest and just shown us all how limited and stupid you are. You should be Edited ashamed and sorry for the thousand of players who actively played CV's and engaged into organising a lot of events in which such Edited s like you could haul their skilless teams. 

 

Overall. FANTASTIC UPDATE WARGAMING.

 

This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inappropriate remarks and swearing 

[bushwacker001]

Some of you guys really get your rocks off over the most minor little crisis.

 

I am the only one that can see that to get clan wars up and running in whatever form, as many players/clans as possible need to be attracted to playing it in the final eventual format (probably 12-12 or something) Hence the rental of ships for now, the 7v7 with no CV etc. 

Having CV's in a 7v7 format could kill the interest in clan wars for a hell of a lot of smaller clans sick of getting wiped out by top clans leaving clan wars to a very small elite.

Ok, I may be wrong in my assumptions for the plan for CW's but surely 7v7 is just the start.

 

[Commander_Cornflakes]

2 minutes ago, bushwacker001 said:

Having CV's in a 7v7 format could kill the interest in clan wars fro a hell of a lot of smaller clans sick of getting wiped out by top clans leaving clan wars to a very small elite.

So, you think without CVs, those clans won't be steamrolled by the top clans?

[bushwacker001]

3 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

So, you think without CVs, those clans won't be steamrolled by the top clans?

Of course but at least they will get to shoot at an enemy ship for a bit and not only see planes dropping stuff on them.

[MaxxyNL]

I have an idea.

 

Completely stop/remove Clan Wars and/or Competitive Gameplay.

 

Problem Solved 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

The TLDR is you actually listen to what the WG staff have to say?

 

I've read enough Q&As, played through changes that no one asked for, laughed at their attempts to dampen community rage with petrol, change the goalposts constantly etc to not listen to a word they say.

 

Sorry if that's a little harsh but it's not like the WG RU Overlords care what it's EU staff report back and said staff are forced to tow the company line even if it's constantly going back on what was said previously.

 

Take anything WG say with a big pinch of salt.

 

My favourite comment was that Ship modeller who said some obscure Russian port bombardment BB had the greatest history of any BB ever 

[aboomination]

3 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

So, you think without CVs, those clans won't be steamrolled by the top clans?

Not in the same manner, no 

[_Teob_]

We also obviously need multiple threads on the same topic because of reasons.

[bushwacker001]

1 minute ago, Teob_VG said:

We also obviously need multiple threads on the same topic because of reasons.

 

That's because OP wants to make it easier for WG to delete a whole thread by starting it off with loads of abuse rather than hiding his essay in a 13 page thread.

[MaxxyNL]

CC's are in a self-destruct mode lately. 

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Quote

We also obviously need multiple threads on the same topic because of reasons.

Because one topic is dedicated to Clan Wars at large, and one single to exclusion of CV's. I wanted a single topic dedicated more to community/players treatment, then to overall issues regarding CW/CV. Therefore, I felt it was justified to create a separate topic to discuss it.

[avenger121]

If I would be one of the guys getting name tagged everytime by the guys who feel entitled enough to demand an answer, I would simply turn off the notifications and ignore that stuff, or stop visting the forum at all.

 

Also funny that the words customer, mistreated and cheated always appears when it comes to people not being able to do what they want, but never when it comes to actual money, for example another P2W prem ship.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

We also obviously need multiple threads on the same topic because of reasons.

 

Ofc, you can never have enough threads on the same topic. ))))

 

 

23 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

So, you think without CVs, those clans won't be steamrolled by the top clans?

 

At least not as decisively. Now we have 7 unicums vs 7 potatoes, but with CVs it would be atleast 9 unicums vs 7 potatoes, since CVs have the might and influence of at least 2 if not 3 other well played ships.

 

 

Tbh, their reasoning seems pretty sound to me, the problems lies mostly in the fact that WG chose 7vs7, 9vs9 would probably be a whole different thing.

 

"Unfortunately, tournament observation results and preliminary tests of Clans demonstrated that an aircraft carrier in a well coordinated team provides perfect reconnaissance through the entire map, creates a lot of obstacles for destroyers from the opposing team, and generally makes the battle follow the "everyone sees everyone else" scenario. It goes without saying that such a situation reduces the variability of the battle and the role of torpedo attacks."

 

Sounds as WG for once cares about the diversity of viable tactics, unlike WoT where you have always the same few cookie cutter setups and strats.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Ah, there's the Avenger. I forgot to block you, now is a good time to do it.

[avenger121]

6 minutes ago, landryn_k said:

Ah, there's the Avenger. I forgot to block you, now is a good time to do it.

 

Sorry that you dont want to see opinions that dont match yours when you engage in a internet forum. :^)

[_Teob_]

9 minutes ago, landryn_k said:

Because one topic is dedicated to Clan Wars at large, and one single to exclusion of CV's. I wanted a single topic dedicated more to community/players treatment, then to overall issues regarding CW/CV. Therefore, I felt it was justified to create a separate topic to discuss it.

 

Yeah only I don't remember choosing you to represent me as a paying player/customer. 

In fact because of the way you express yourself, you don't represent me at all.

 

And pretending the two topics aren't linked is a tad dishonest. But hey, here we are. You got your thread.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

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eah only I don't remember choosing you to represent me as a paying player/customer. 

In fact because to the way you express yourself, you don't represent me at all.

Lulz. So if you don't agree with my opinion and you don't "like" the way I "express myself" then I can't say things a lot of other dudes agree with me? What, you expect me to send you a notification what I want to write so you can approve if I'm worthy of representing you as a End of All Wisdom Teob_VG? And I didn't choose you particularly to represent, so, if you don't like it, don't read it. 

[Syrchalis]

No self-respecting company or developer would EVER consider banning a part of their community from participating based on their choice of gameplay - JUST BECAUSE they (the developers) screwed up and didn't properly develop that part of gameplay.*

 

I agree that CVs don't make a good addition to competitive play right now. But WG prioritizes throwing out clan wars without CVs over fixing CVs and then bringing out a fair version of clan wars with all of the community able to participate in their favorite class.

 

They just don't care about players. Fixing CVs and bringing out a fair clan wars version would please MANY players. Now they enraged a whole lot for no gain.

 

 

*DId you ever see a League of Legends World Championship with a role disabled?

Did you ever see competitive Starcraft (1/2) with a whole race disabled?

DId you ever see a whole class in World of Warcraft banned from participating in anything?

 

No, and there is a reason for that. Other companies are actually interested in their players and creating a good game. Other companies know what player outrage costs them. Other companies know that quality gameplay beats advertisement (lul) and new features in player retention and overall revenue.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

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Did you ever see competitive Starcraft (1/2) with a whole race disabled?

That was what I wrote in CC chat. You imagine Blizzard coming out and saying, sorry Protos guys, Terran and Zerg players from silver league said you're OP, and we can't be bothered to work your race out - therefore, no tournaments for you guys. Oh, and we limit Terran players to only 3 out of 24, cause you're not OP at all, you just stall games.

[Syrchalis]

1 minute ago, landryn_k said:

That was what I wrote in CC chat. You imagine Blizzard coming out and saying, sorry Protos guys, Terran and Zerg players from silver league said you're OP, and we can't be bothered to work your race out - therefore, no tournaments for you guys. Oh, and we limit Terran players to only 3 out of 24, cause you're not OP at all, you just stall games.

I agree with it.

 

I just like to repeat and reword things because many people need that to get the point. I can't believe how many get hung up on the exact example one used to get a point across - instead of focusing on said point. That's why I do this.

 

As for the crappy cruiser/BB/DD balance (yes DDs are part of it) - it's been like this forever. WG does not care. BBs will and SHOULD be the kings of random battles in their mind. All other classes may suffer in peace and quiet and wait for competitive modes where BBs are limited or disabled.

[ParEx]

Could not agree more. Even for a CA only player these days, I can only give you a big thumbs up.

Cudos for you as a CC to open this post and your efford to make the game a better place.

[bushwacker001]

28 minutes ago, landryn_k said:

Ah, there's the Avenger. I forgot to block you, now is a good time to do it.

 

This post has now convinced me that OP is a bit of a sulky baby. 

[philjd]

49 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

My favourite comment was that Ship modeller who said some obscure Russian port bombardment BB had the greatest history of any BB ever 

Must have missed that classic - which BB was it supposed to be?

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

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This post has now convinced me that OP is a bit of a sulky baby. 

If you could actually go through history of my posts in this section, you would quickly found out I tried to engage in a decent discussion with this dude, and unfortunately found him incapable of understanding simple facts. Thus, him being just a troll decided to leave this miserable experience to other users. But, yeah, I'm just a sulky baby. A big one tho, but just a baby.

Quote

Must have missed that classic - which BB was it supposed to be?

It wasn't exactly that, one of the devs, when asked which ship he liked the most regarding their performance in history, he answered with Marat.

[avenger121]

4 minutes ago, landryn_k said:

If you could actually go through history of my posts in this section, you would quickly found out I tried to engage in a decent discussion with this dude, and unfortunately found him incapable of understanding simple facts. Thus, him being just a troll decided to leave this miserable experience to other users.

 

> I dont like his opionion

> he is too stupid to understand simple facts

> he must be a troll

 

 

:^)

[_Teob_]

11 minutes ago, bushwacker001 said:

 

This post has now convinced me that OP is a bit of a sulky baby. 

 

Also rude, toxic and on top of everything else has no idea how quoting works.