See if you can spot the difference in the aproach of WG when designing a CL and a BB ......

[havaduck]

Take these two examples of upcoming ships

Spoiler

 

 

and

 

Spoiler

 

 

This example is as good as any, even better as it clearly shows how WG thinks a cruiser and a battleship should be like. Ill save up on further comments and let everybody else make up their mind except: I am not really worried about the Pancake-cruiser since its a premium it will get buffed to OP levels or at least be no  worse state than the shitty silver cruisers currently in the game.

 

 

 

---

 

 

Seriously WG I admire the ballz you have to still keep sprouting the nonsense about "addressing BB overpopulation" and right after the RN disaster this is how you guys think your next try on a well balanced BB should be. But hey, no cruiser consumables this time, "only" Zao dispersion - the highest tier cruiser long range specialist - while the shells are still fast as any other BBs shells and no less  deadly in terms of AP and even ofc completely OP in terms of HE firechance.  Meanwhile the base dispersion of an Omaha is even WORSE  - on less range ofc; and dont give me the BS about Sigma, a Omaha aint got 2.0 sigma too, and unlike this thing its shells are slow and cant do anything + the ships dies to absolutely everything.

 

All in all:

 

 

 

This game cant change aka "adressing the BB overpopulation" if the people behind the gamedesign are allowed to do the same stupid things over and over again with no consequences to them.

 

 

In case you are wondering:      A - 2

 

[Seinta]

They should really stop balancing stuff with a hammer.

 

A Graf Spee accuracy would make the Cesare the most accurate BB in the game without making it more accurate than standard Cruisers.

 

 

[HystericalAccuracy]

1 hour ago, Seinta said:

A Graf Spee accuracy would make the Cesare the most accurate BB in the game without making it more accurate than standard Cruisers.

So at current state Giulio Cezare has better accuracy than Graf Spee?

(Plus: Giulio Cesare has four guns more than GS)

[MrConway]

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion in this thread, but please do remember that the ships are still work in progress.

 

But if you like go ahead and

Spoiler

 

[ZoidFile]

I actually like the idea of the Hueng He, that of a high risk, high reward ship. They just are not right there yet, they have to tweak the damage output quite a bit and it might be fun.

At least they tried something new without just putting some random gimmick on it.

 

On the other hand it shows how hard it is to make a reasonable competitive CL in the current meta.

[Chaos_Umbra]

22 minutes ago, ZoidFile said:

I actually like the idea of the Hueng He, that of a high risk, high reward ship.

 

It's high risk all right, just no reward in compensation.

[Seinta]

56 minutes ago, drmajga said:

So at current state Giulio Cezare has better accuracy than Graf Spee?

(Plus: Giulio Cesare has four guns more than GS)

 

138m seen from Flamu's video.

 

 

[Gibbl]

1 hour ago, MrConway said:

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion in this thread, but please do remember that the ships are still work in progress.

 

British BBs were also work in process and were released this imbalanced.....

[juanxmar]

8 minutes ago, Gibbl said:

 

British BBs were also work in process and were released this imbalanced.....

 

They seem to believe we as customers have short memories.

[Exocet6951]

1 hour ago, MrConway said:

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion in this thread, but please do remember that the ships are still work in progress.

 

But if you like go ahead and

  Hide contents

 

 

If it's sent in CC testing, it's because WG is content with the design and wants to tweak numbers.
That in itself is concerning enough to raise some red flags.

 

Then you take a gander at the latest balance decisions (**cough** lowered citadels on BBs, RN BB HE, ever increasing AA on BB, FR CAs being just dreary, German DDs nerfed just prior to release **cough**), and it's not exactly hard to see what the game's direction is, and why pitchforks are being taken out for game decisions that obviously accelerate the game in said direction.


But hey, "don't worry my dear cash cows playerbase, nothing to see here, nothing to be concerned about )))))))) "

[ZoidFile]

1 hour ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

 

It's high risk all right, just no reward in compensation.

That's what I wrote.

[Capra76]

1 hour ago, MrConway said:

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion in this thread, but please do remember that the ships are still work in progress.

 

This isn't some datamined stats we're talking about here, this is a ship that has been sent out to the CCs for review and the reviews have been published, Graf Spee fiasco notwithstanding there is no reason to suspect the final release will be any different.

[havaduck]

3 hours ago, MrConway said:

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion in this thread, but please do remember that the ships are still work in progress.

 

 

 

Please do remember that British Battleships got released. I cant really hold a celebration for WG that there is no defensive fire and/or radar on top of everything else.

In fact, pleas do remember that it was probably only the public outcry that got it off those ship before release in the first place. In that sense:

 

 

"Early detection of WGs BS  might  save balancing if the outcry is loud enough for WG to raise their heads and look/listen instead of continue the brown nosing on p2w/BBaby-faction.

 

Please do remember that Missouri got released with radar - and still has it.

 

Please do remember that high tier KM BBs had and still have their hydro.

 

Please do remember that German cruisers got released, despite warning from your own STs, the community contributes, and anyone else that got a preview on them.

 

Pleas do remember that König Albert, another ship that got released despite warning how ridiculous OP it is on T3 has to be removed from the shop, a proud tradition shared with other ships like the OPerator.

Another example for this could be Mogami/p2w-zov. One was being nerfed (constantly) for being to strong as a silver ship, and the other one got buffed despite being already more powerful WITHOUT a captain, than the Mogami ever was.

 

Please do also remember that WG said the p2w boats that are so grossly OP wont be sold again; except when they are like last year through Christmas container gamble.

Please do also remember that WG didnt even take that detour via gambling when, for example just outright selling the E25 again in a cashgrab.

 

Please do remember all the attempts to "address BB overpopulation" that are summed up with: Buffing BBs, releasing more BBs, giving out high tier BBs to everyone botting enough, nerving everything else.

 

Pleas do remember how things go when WG decides to actually change things up: Even the short lived memory of the EU-mikcows should still be able to remember the GZ-incident.

 

Please do remember things like the Flint and Black do exist ingame - the Belfast as well - apparently totally balanced comrade! 

 

Please do remember the completely ridiculous changes recently that left cruisers (in high tiers) basically the only ships who still have a citadel. (CVs are protected by the distance/speed/camo, DDs dont have one, and BB got "fixed" so much Submarines would complain because the cant set their torps to run low enough)

 

 

Please do remember that, as stated it isnt even about those two ships in particular weather or not they are going to get released (ofc both shouldnt). Its more about how WG OUTRAGOUS this thing is at any point of design process - let alone that this has made it at least as far as the CC testing it, so its not like it some fantasy of a noob game designer put together with some place holder values. This hole thing is so reminiscent of the GZ cashgrab that you simply gotta ask yourself: "Are they planing on another GZ-disaster already? or is it just another op p2w premium thats going to stay". Also do remember that its really insulting that just like a spoiled rotten child WG having a temper tantrum due to no longer "being allowed" cruiser consumables on BBs, is now switching to putting cruiser dispersion on BBs guns. Also do I really need to point at the BB-Bingo again?

 

 

I think you can understand why I wont give the benefit of a doubt but rather the benefit of my boot when I see things like this.

 

 

2 hours ago, Seinta said:

 

138m seen from Flamu's video.

 

 

at 16,4 km! This is Zao levels of dispersion. 

 

For comparison:

A Omaha has 137 m base dispersion (a whole meter less!!!!!) but only on 15,2 km - on 15,2 the BB naturally has the upper hand.

Könisberg 136 m on 16,5 km range.

Kirov 145 m on 16,3 km.

Bertain 136 m on 14,9 km.

 

In total this is actually slightly  better than avg. cruiser dispersion!

 

Pleas do note however that those cruiser shells are completely and utterly useless and do nothing, with shitty arcs and taking forever to reach their target; fired from a ship that takes critical damage from every seagull emptying its bowels. On the other hand no cruiser can angle effectively in any way against BB return fire let alone with this dispersion; meanwhile it might takes dozens of HE shells from a cruiser to sink a DD - and cruiser AP bounces clean of DDs, while fighting a BB is entirely out of the question - let alone a p2w infused and enhanced version like this. 

 

 

I actually offer to  playtest  this thing in its current state as a T9/10 cruiser if I get access to the T8/T9 upgrades - like any other ship of that tier does. I dont even need cruiser consumables,  although they would help naturally even more. 

 

[morgoroth]

Just wait for the Italian BB line :P Balance comrades, balance! XAXAXA

[Butterdoll]

2 hours ago, MrConway said:

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion in this thread, but please do remember that the ships are still work in progress.

 

But if you like go ahead and

Not today, the pitchfork are blunt and there isn't any more fires for today.

 

but that kind of things make me think what will happen to the upcoming cls?

 

The problem with the bbs it's they are slow, I've been relaxing all day, did a bunch of battles today, how many battles I did with mi barge? 1!

 

if WG want to favour bb, fine by me, but please...

forget the realism.

and put the bbs, with a higher rate of fire, like 8 sec, max

increase the speed to 40 knots

increase the turning speed to cruiser like.

otherwise you can put several Berthas on a hull, with the sigma of a laser gun, with the range from earth to the moon, paint it like the flying circus squadron and will remains the same boring old drag.

 

Speed, man, speed

 

the need for speed. more speed.

 

that, and jet skis with guns and cannons

[EmilyFara]

2 hours ago, MrConway said:

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion in this thread, but please do remember that the ships are still work in progress.

 

But if you like go ahead and

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I like the joke...

I don't like the direction we seem to be going.

 

But I like the joke you made.

[Aotearas]

3 hours ago, MrConway said:

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion in this thread, but please do remember that the ships are still work in progress.

 

But if you like go ahead and

  Hide contents

 

 

You are entirely correct, this isn't a popular opinion.

For a good reason.

 

But hey, don't let me or anyone else stop you from abusing a meme to discredit conflicting opinions. It's not like there's an easily discernable trend of foolproofing BBs by raising the skillfloor so high the first floor doesn't start below 15m above the ground. Between lowering citadels to such an extend that actually scoring citadel hits on even perfectly broadside battleships becomes a rarity, powercreeping BB AA through the proverbial roof, releasing a line of BBs with better concealment than a good number of cruisers, a stupidly powerful heal AND all the previously mentioned attributes ... naturally the next thing to improve is the dispersion. Clearly all those "have 23km range, must use it!" potatoes sitting at their ship's maxrange sniping away aren't hitting often enough.

 

I mean, it's not like those early impressions haven't turned out to be entirely correct for the most part ... except for those times when WG went ahead and simply changed major parameters, then released the ships without giving community contributers enough time to actually update their impressions (KM DD line or Graf Zeppelin ringing a bell?). Hell even the RN BBs that for some period where actually being tested with radar or defensive AA respectively ended up culminating in a live tier X BB that's hilariously overpowered. Where exactly do you think we're supposed to refill on faith regarding WG being capable of properly balancing a ship, ESPECIALLY when we're being presented with impressions like, oh I don't know ... a BB with cruiser level dispersion. Just because you say it's a WiP? Didn't quite work out the last couple times, did it?

 

 

I'm sorry (not really, this is just a manner of speech) but at this point WG appears insincere at the best of times, incompetent at the most of times and sometimes just downright deceitful.

 

So, with all due respect:

Stop victimizing yourselves as if you were being unjustly besieged by an angry mob and simply deliver something that doesn't entice such strong reactions in the first place.

And yes, that process starts at the very design phase. No amount of "we're just testing, duh" is going to change the happenstance of you testing something ridiculous.

 

 

 

Now, in all fairness:

Improving BB accuracy to increase the importance of proper aim (and penalizing poor aim) is one of the possible balance changes I had proposed (though only in tandom with other changes such as removing the ability to score citadel penetrations after overmatching a layer or armour).

But if the current "testing" of the Giulio Cesare is meant to generate data on the viability of such a change and then later applied to a gobal BB accuracy rework (in which case I'd be happily pitching in with words of encouragement and a couple suggestions), then this HAS TO BE FRIGGIN COMMUNICATED!!!

Because if you don't, the only thing I can reasonable assume you're doing is WG simply giving another BB another gimmick that in its standalone form just ends up being overpowered at the expense of those classes that already have a hard enough time in the BB heavy meta as it stands.

[rigawe]

I don't get it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Giulo Cesare anounced, USS Massachusetts teased, KII released, Musachi also teased and if I remember correctly French BB on their way (before the end of the year?) with Jean Bar as premium.

 

And you guys believe WG is working on reducing BB population?

[RUSSIANBlAS]

WG ARE addressing the BB population...

 

By making other classes so unappealing that people stop playing them and all the players remaining are BB players so everything is fine 

[Juanx]

On 9/25/2017 at 0:48 AM, rigawe said:

I don't get it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Giulo Cesare anounced, USS Massachusetts teased, KII released, Musachi also teased and if I remember correctly French BB on their way (before the end of the year?) with Jean Bar as premium.

 

And you guys believe WG is working on reducing BB population?

 

As you can see by the ribbin conway got, no, we do know they dont care, but hey, look at it ths way, lets say, the money that is usually funneled here (and as you can see, I have a bunch of premium ships) is going to find somewhere else to go, since I dont care for the *Edited players DG is trying to attract.

[havaduck]

44 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

 

By making other classes so unappealing that people stop playing them and all the players remaining are BB players so everything is fine 

 

 

You sure? I bet there still would be dark clouds in the 20+ km sniping paradise: Seems like some are already considered cheating!

 

 

It truly has started already: BBs finally crying about other BBs ..... via the cheat0r  route even - a privilege usually only bestowed upon a dev. strike by "surprise" torp spread that took 1 minute to get there.

[Lin3]

5 hours ago, MrConway said:

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion in this thread, but please do remember that the ships are still work in progress.

 

But if you like go ahead and

  Hide contents

 

How much notice did the developers take of Flamu et al's comments on the Conqueror and Orion when they were WiP?

 

 

This game is as balanced as a hippopotamus and a dormouse playing on a see-saw.

[_VAMPA_]

1 hour ago, havaduck said:

 

 

You sure? I bet there still would be dark clouds in the 20+ km sniping paradise: Seems like some are already considered cheating!

 

 

It truly has started already: BBs finally crying about other BBs ..... via the cheat0r  route even - a privilege usually only bestowed upon a dev. strike by "surprise" torp spread that took 1 minute to get there.

next weekend i promise to put gun fire control sys.mod2 on my Conqi to check is it good 20-28km domain

naaah im too cheap just will be strict 20-24

 

@MrConway Oh pls.

i`m not gonna sharpen nothing. it will be a waste of time, i just put my card in my pocket some time ago- yes, i know that the goons that $$$ newTopToy are more than players as me^^

just please answer one question:

Why WG is not releasing in WiP some OP CL or CA but WG is releasing utter crap at T6 that will need tons of love and buffs to be playable ?

   if u ask what that OP means - its a hybrid, between DM and ZAO at tier8 ( ofc with T8 maneuverability as New Orleans, ofc and standard CA heal )

   ohh sorry i just can`t resist: Can you imagine what will happen if that "Hu HO" meet Gaede?

Spoiler

there is very good looking proposal for Tier8 USN CA

and i need Tier8 USN CA its missing from my collection

 

[MacFergus]

BB population will never be reduced that's a fact people like big guns and floating fortresses all this uproar over the HE of the RN BBs and yet not so long ago people were laughing at BBs using HE I was using HE on the Ishi from day 1 it was released and was setting fires well before the RN BBs came out its nothing new it been around since the game was released I think the real reason why people are upset is because a scrubber can now kill an elitist as long as he can aim and guess what the purple elite don't like that heaven forbid they lose one of there division mates who gets melted.

 

From a Business point of view it makes perfect sense to release more BBs its the most popular class of ship and WG are a business lets not forget that if there are punters willing to pay big for a new BB premium  they would be nuts to ignore that opportunity.

[ApesTogetherStronK]

54 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

BB population will never be reduced

 

But it needs to be, already, looking at average player numbers from the same time last year as now, they are significantly (several thousands per server) lower, this is despite the fact that back then we didn't have campaigns, decentish weekly missions, nearly as many challenges, co-op scenarios and many less ship lines, despite all this new content, they have less players now. 

If the current trend continues, the game will be as dead as Warplanes in just a couple of years. Even WoT has significantly more longevity despite also having issues, many the same. 

The instant a viable non-Russian designed game in the same genres is on the market I guarantee that Warships, WoT, Warthunder et al will lose players in droves. 

And ultimately, a game's long term economy is where the real profits are at. Wargaming has been shooting themselves in the foot vying for short term money grabs for years.