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TK_666

Ship turn radius at high and at slow speed, no difference?

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Beta Tester
39 posts
1,172 battles

Hi.

Maybe I'm blatantly wrong and someone will correct me - so far it seems to me that regardless of class of ship (BB/DD/Cruiser..), it doesn't matter what speed your ship has when you turn, it's still the same turn radius, only the speed at which you do it seems to be affected. This makes little sense to me (though as said, I might be totally wrong here). Should'nt the turn radius be smaller/sharper when your ship travels at low speed, and the turning curve get bigger as the speed increases?

 

Right now it looks like the turning curve is the same, regardless of doing 2 knots or 20. Am I wrong? Should it be like this?

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Beta Tester
79 posts
1,476 battles

I had noticed the same and was curious about it. When you posted the question here, I decided to look it up. I found a ship theory guide at: http://shipsbusiness.com/turning-circle.html

 

The cliff notes version: Turning circle is determined by hull width, hull length, and the rudder, but not speed. 

 

The navigation guide video recently released also makes clear this is intentional.

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[WNKRS]
Alpha Tester
967 posts
4,908 battles

It would be a cool addition to combat if you could slow and decrease your turning circle, though. Maybe it's just a step too far in unrealism, but it would give us different options for dodging incoming fire.

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[DUSCH]
Weekend Tester
25 posts
34 battles

I justed "tested" that as i was reading here with my Cruiser. If you are on Full Speed and start turning, now lowering your Speed to 3/4 you def. turn faster. Going down to 1/2 seems to not speed up the turn tho. But i will have a look again on that.

Edited by F1zzle

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[WNKRS]
Alpha Tester
967 posts
4,908 battles

I justed "tested" that as i was reading here with my Cruiser. If you are on Full Speed and start turning, now lowering your Speed to 3/4 you def. turn faster. Going down to 1/2 seems to not speed up the turn tho. But i will have a look again on that.

 

I think that's just because if you're at full you drift much longer in the water, rather than the turn circle being slower.

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Alpha Tester
1,049 posts
2,334 battles

The navigation guide video recently released also makes clear this is intentional.

 

They said that decreasing or increasing speed will not have a major difference in turning, not none at all.

 

I can not prove it of course since I have not compared it, but I feel like I can turn slightly tighter with 3/4 speed or so.

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Beta Tester
39 posts
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I'm not sure what's realistic or not, since I'm no skipper myself. :) These ships are also not the "new" kind with bow-thrusters or any azimuth-mounted props, but it still got me thinking how a battleship for example would land to a pier.

For all I know maybe they all needed help from tugboats. :)

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[HIRR]
Alpha Tester
417 posts
5,983 battles

WG recently released a video regarding navigation which also has a section about turning circles. I reccomend you watch that :P

 

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Beta Tester
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The turning radius as mentioned in the video depends more on the ship design, then the speed.

 

The longer the ship generally, the greater the turning circle.The type of rudder and the resulting steering effect will decide the final diameter, with the clearance between rudder and hull having a major influence.The smaller the clearance between rudder and hull the more effective the turning action.

 

 

 The relation between power and displacement will affect the turning circle performance of any vessel in the same way that a light speedboat has greater acceleration than a heavily laden ore carrier. It should be remembered that the rudder is only effective when there is a flow of water past it.The turning circle will therefore not increase by any considerable margin with an increase in speed, because the steering effect is increased over the same period. (The rudder steering effect will increase with the square of the flow of water past the rudder.)

 

Source; http://shipsbusiness.com/turning-circle-external-factors.html

 

 

 

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Beta Tester
43 posts
1,067 battles

Hi.

Maybe I'm blatantly wrong and someone will correct me - so far it seems to me that regardless of class of ship (BB/DD/Cruiser..), it doesn't matter what speed your ship has when you turn, it's still the same turn radius, only the speed at which you do it seems to be affected. This makes little sense to me (though as said, I might be totally wrong here). Should'nt the turn radius be smaller/sharper when your ship travels at low speed, and the turning curve get bigger as the speed increases?

 

Right now it looks like the turning curve is the same, regardless of doing 2 knots or 20. Am I wrong? Should it be like this?

 

Generally (!) maximum rate of turn is only a function of your physical ship design. That is because your rudder effectively produces sideways thrust as a function of the water flowing past it. There is an additional effect due to the direct thrust of the prop on the rudder, but its (relatively) small. 

 

HOWEVER a big exception to this is in the case of multi-screw ships. Port/Starboard engine throttles can be controlled independently, and in theory, you can turn a BB on its axis (will just take effing forever). 

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Alpha Tester
230 posts
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Totaly wrong... explain how you can drift on an island...

 

Also explain the optimal force on the rudder...
 

I will give a more detailled responce later...

Edited by Don_Prince

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[GURU]
Alpha Tester
725 posts
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Totaly wrong... explain how you can drift on an island...

 

Also explain the optimal force on the rudder...

 

I will give a more detailled responce later...

 

Totally wrong in what?

As a guy that used to sail in regatta's I can tell you that your hull length + shape and placement of the rudder is the decisive factor on turning, not the speed, its not like you are drifting in a racecar or something, 

 

Edited by Broevaharo
  • Cool 2

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[SELI]
Beta Tester
20 posts
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Shifting the rudder takes some time. If you slow down your ship you have traveled a little bit smaller distance when the rudder hits the max.

 

 

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Alpha Tester
230 posts
348 battles

 

Totally wrong in what?

As a guy that used to sail in regatta's I can tell you that your hull length + shape and placement of the rudder is the decisive factor on turning, not the speed, its not like you are drifting in a racecar or something, 

...

 

Shure it is.. but the speed is of the essence too... If you in your sailboat have no wind you wont turn... If you have too little speed you will make a cirkle almost twice the size of the smallest radius possble. just because the rudder does not have the required force. So you need a little bit of speed...

 

Part b comming soon

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Alpha Tester
202 posts
2,663 battles

Right now lowering speed from full to 3/4 or 1/2, while not impacting manouverability of a warship, negates your "drift", pretty often making a difference between swimming past island or getting stuck in the most problematic way.

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Alpha Tester
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Are you serious? "Sailboat with no wind" is your argument here?

 

Wait I am not finnished... I am in and out colleges so I can not finnish in one piece...

Edited by Don_Prince

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Alpha Tester
230 posts
348 battles

Now the drifting part comes into the story. Just pick a random object, bind it on a cable, hold the end. The length of the kable determines the width of your turning circle. Now you start out a bit out of the center and give the object a push. Guess what.. If you hold the cable It will go in a circle. You will experience some force due to the mass not wanting to turn. The more speed the more force you need to hold it in place. you will have this force in a ship... Of cource the you will get a counter force from the hull needing to push away the water...

 

Part C comming soon

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[RUHR]
Beta Tester
70 posts
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You will experience some force due to the mass not wanting to turn.

 

 

Yeah, well, your physics are a bit flawed here. The ships mass actually wants to turn. Determined by the change of the ships streamline (by moving the rudder).

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Alpha Tester
230 posts
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Yeah, well, your physics are a bit flawed here. The ships mass actually wants to turn. Determined by the change of the ships streamline (by moving the rudder).

 

No thats the force you apply to the mass...

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[RN]
Alpha Tester
921 posts

It would be a cool addition to combat if you could slow and decrease your turning circle, though. Maybe it's just a step too far in unrealism, but it would give us different options for dodging incoming fire.

 

already works that way (less noticable in big BB)

 

 

Shure it is.. but the speed is of the essence too... If you in your sailboat have no wind you wont turn... If you have too little speed you will make a cirkle almost twice the size of the smallest radius possble. just because the rudder does not have the required force. So you need a little bit of speed...

 

Part b comming soon

 

correct

 

Right now lowering speed from full to 3/4 or 1/2, while not impacting manouverability of a warship, negates your "drift", pretty often making a difference between swimming past island or getting stuck in the most problematic way.

 

indeed
  • Cool 1

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[WNKRS]
Alpha Tester
967 posts
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There is no noticeable decrease in turning circle, as far as I can tell. I'll re-evaluate if the devs say something different, not getting bogged down in this like I did the lower throttle = more accuracy debacle. 

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Alpha Tester
230 posts
348 battles

Next up we look a the rudder.  What is its shape? Where is it positioned? Usualy a rudder does not cover the full blast created by the propellor... Simply to keep the resistence done by the rudder as low as possible. So next to the force to turn the ship you will have a trust forwards...

 

Now look at a classical cruiser hull. (so do we naval architects call the type of hull used for the battle ships in this era) The rudder is placed far away from the propelors. Also the rudders are pretty small. Most of the trust comming from the propellors will give the ship a forward movement.

 

Turning with those ships means changing the position of the rudder in combination with lowering the rpm of the engines on the side your turning to (Only by low speed you can reverse otherwise you will CAPSIZE!!!)

 

Next up, put your rudder in a direction and give the trottle a short burst (works best from standing stil or low speed), this way you use drift to your advantage and you generate turning speed. Next to turning speed you will generate forward speed. to turn on the place with a one screw ship you reverse the engine to stop the forward movement (while keeping the rudder in position) and as soon as the forward movement is out of the ship you give a burst again to gain or keep the turning speed...

 

Part D comming later

 

So to sum it up...

Since multi engine control is not available in this game (I love the idea though)

 

as it is now:

stop = standing still

1/4 = normal turning circle

1/2 = bigger than normal turning circle

3/4 = bit smaller turning circle than normal but more drift

full = biggest due to forward movement and drift

 

Ideal turning conditions are between 1/4 and 1/2, If you are capable of predicting the drift you could count in between 1/2 and 3/4.

 

In real life it wil depend on the dimentions of the propellor, possition of the propellor, shape of the propellor, stream of the water comming to the propellor, turning speed of the propellor, position of the rudder, size of the rudder, shape of the rudder, is the rudder in the stream of the propellor and of cource the shape of the hull (and center of gravity, center of bouyancy and momentums)

 

If you want to know more about that I'd say: read a book... (or bother me enough and I will answer at one point and time)

 

 

http://www.imo.org/blast/blastDataHelper.asp?data_id=6573&filename=1053.pdf

The IMO on the subject

 


 
Edited by BigBadVuk

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