T10 CVs, for or against?

[ForlornSailor]

Support was incapable of opposing air? Do you even know the game? Btw. easiest round were when enemys went Armor/Air only. It would be called "full potato" in wows language.

 

Edit: For everyone reading that doesnt know World in Conflict: Support was the class, which had mainly and exclusively Anti-Air-Vehicles. It was the role to counter Air. And that guy says, Support cant counter Air. So much for that argument.

[Thracen]

11 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Because a medic doesn't have more influence than a sniper.

taking into account player skill, no not really

 

11 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Because a well balanced team doesn't totally beat one consisting only of one class.

We're talking about individual class influence, this is an entirely different issue?

 

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Because the ability to revive and refund a ticket is obviously equal to resupplying ammo (as stated before).

taking all the games in the series into account the classes were well balanced, certainly in terms of influence to CVs and say CCs in wow.

 

14 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I'm sorry, the criteria was class based. Should've probably added PvP as well because balance in PvE games is fundamentally different.

Load outs, titan choices and card choices effectively give a multi class system anywho. No need to apologise, the game still fits the basic criteria.

[RamirezKurita]

25 minutes ago, Thracen said:

 Right, team fortress 2, Dota 2, league of legends, battlefield, every single one since 1942, a personal fav. The division, destiny 2, the titanfall's. All have classes, none of those classes have any hope of the consistent win rates achievable by by the best CVs and the loss rate of the worst CVs. Frankly I think it's absurd comparing such things but you needed an answer.

 

Most of those games you listed have functioning matchmakers that actually try to balance teams rather than just throwing players together at random. I'm sure that if you put a challenger ranked player in League of Legends into a games full of players of completely random skill you would see some truly staggering win rate - but you don't ever see those games because the game has a skill based matchmaker. In games with functioning matchmakers, high win rates are either a sign of the player still climbing to the position they are meant to be or a sign of a player that is so good that the matchmaker find opponents worthy of them.

[Thracen]

5 minutes ago, gekkehenkie50 said:

So I was typing a rather long essay on this topic, then I decided that I might as well break it down to this:

A. Dont bash guys on their stats in an Opinion Poll, despite their claims being as mad as possible

B. My opinion is this: CVs add an extra layer of gameplay, they are the reason so many skills in the game exist as well as flags, builds and even certain ships. They are an iconic piece of history from WW2 and frankly I also enjoy them in game. Anytime I am hovered over or striked by a CV, I feel a slight amount of anger, but then usually playfully call him a piece of in chat for focusing me and move on.

C. If you really havent seen any sky-melts passed tier VI... Idk. weird RNG/MM, because I can tell you the amount of times I have had to sacrifice 4 entire squadrons just to get the decap on someone should have included you in one of them.

 

A. I'm with you.

B. I get the flavour argument I do, and the build variety is a strong one as well, problem is you sacrifice so much if you end up in a game without a CV. I don't mind going 1v1 with a cv in terms of being struck, problem is in a CC a CV spots me, this can be death in itself, his torps force me to decide which i die too, his torps or his BBs broadside. This is simply imbalanced, IJN ccs are played with stealth in mind, scaring dds of caps and HE spamming BBs, 1 aircraft makes these ships impossible to play. This is the same sory with IJN dds This is untenable in my eyes.

C. Really haven't, I have seen very effective fighter strafes but no Cleveland like sky clearances beyond t6. highest average plane kills is the minotaur with 4 per match, obviously this doesn't take into account the lack of CVs in a fight but it also includes all the spotter planes from other ships. I get struck very often because I play lots of t8s and IJN ccs. I'm lucky to take 8 planes with me in a full AA build before dieing. 

[El2aZeR]

46 minutes ago, Thracen said:

taking into account player skill, no not really

 

I guess CVs are well balanced but the average player is simply bad is a perfectly reasonable argument then.

 

46 minutes ago, Thracen said:

We're talking about individual class influence, this is an entirely different issue?

 

If all classes had the same potential influence then they should be replaceable by each other, yet that is obviously not the case.

 

46 minutes ago, Thracen said:

taking all the games in the series into account the classes were well balanced, certainly in terms of influence to CVs and say CCs in wow.

 

The ability to revive and refund a ticket is infinitely more powerful than any other ability found in the game. That makes the Medic/Assault class by far the most important one, in fact it is so powerful that a team consisting only of it will find a reasonable amount of success. Playing without it on the other hand is an insurmountable handicap. Playing without Recons, Supports or, on an infantry-only map, Engineers however is very much possible, even desirable in certain circumstances.

 

46 minutes ago, Thracen said:

Load outs, titan choices and card choices effectively give a multi class system anywho. No need to apologise, the game still fits the basic criteria.

 

No, it doesn't. You can simply create your own class out of a pool of every ability in the game. There are no fixed inherent abilities, thus disqualifying it as an asymmetric class-based game. There are also weapons and perks that are usually considered best-in-slot and stand head and shoulders above others in terms of utility and game influence, even if it is by DPS only.

[ForlornSailor]

@El2aZeR Showing your deep lack of knowledge (or deliberatly trying to spread wrong info) of WiC, yet commenting on it and trying to turn it in your favor, I cant take any of your comments made on other games serious, wether I know them or not. I suggest, nobody takes you serious on this....

[El2aZeR]

13 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Showing your deep lack of knowledge (or deliberatly trying to spread wrong info) of WiC

 

I have to admit I didn't play WiC MP very much (though the campaign was outstanding imo), so I can only share what limited knowledge I have (which I believe I made clear by "I was under the impression of").

Then again servers tended to place ridiculous limits on classes like "only 1 heavy and 2 medium arty" or "only 2 medium helicopters". Perhaps for good reason?

[ForlornSailor]

Ok granted @El2aZeR You are right about those 2 restriction, i can tell you perfectly why. Heavy Artillery was an option for Support. Any supportplayer spawning 2 heavy artillery had no more points to spawn ANY heavy-Anti-Air thus letting the team die with 100% certainty. Also they usualy stay at the border of the map, cuz the heavy arty could shoot so far. Sounds familiar? To put it into wows perspective: those players were even worse than Border-hugging-BBabys shooting HE. The restriction on medium helicopters was, cuz they hardly had any other job but harrasing the heavy choppers aka the real Air. 2 Players entering a publicserver playing medium AA only would leech huge amount of points (and often still lose) and the enemy Air-player had not a slight chance. There were a lot of Air-players pissed with this option, thus many Server owners ristricted the usage. Very offtopic but ill make the turn now:

 

I wish there would be an option to change the gamemechanics in private servers in wows. It would boost competitive play. Many many games with an active Competitive-scene have those options. It would be awesome for wows to fine-tune those OP-effects very skilled players get from playing certain classes, f.e. CV. Just limit the numbers of available squads, or limit the duration of smoke - the possibilities would be endless.

[Exocet6951]

3 hours ago, Thracen said:

OK you want an answer, here is a game http://www.naturalselection2.com/ it was based on asymmetric play.

 

So an exosuit or an Ono (ie: valuable "classes" that make or break the match for a team) have the same value as a grunt? 
k

 

1 hour ago, Thracen said:

 Right, team fortress 2, Dota 2, league of legends, battlefield, every single one since 1942, a personal fav. The division, destiny 2, the titanfall's. All have classes, none of those classes have any hope of the consistent win rates achievable by by the best CVs and the loss rate of the worst CVs. Frankly I think it's absurd comparing such things but you needed an answer.

 

Right help me here, the only answers I've heard for the fun of playing against at t10 have been "being avoided in a AA cruiser" and "forcing team play, ships grouping together and pushing aggressively". I think it's fair to say the former is an argument but not a strong indication of positive CV interaction and I've have never seen evidence of the second one first hand in 4k matches.

Please if you could pick out the ones I've missed I will listen, but so far I find these 2 less than convincing. 

 

Team Fortress 2? Yes do tell how an engineer with a teleport and area denying turret is as valuable as a scout, which has a hit and run role.
DoTA 2/LoL? Yes tell me how an entire branch of characters called carriesby all players, from newbies to pro players are equally valuable to initiators, which are only there for ease of team fight initiating. YOu can win without an initiator, but you can't win without a good carry character. Fundamentally unequal.
Battlefield series? yes tell me how a tank on a tank map contributes equally to victory as a sniper. Or a medic which revives and basically makes or breaks a push contributes equally to the class with LMGs who gives out ammo. 10/10 convinced

Haven't played Destiny, but you get the gist

 

As far as your question about what's fun about fighting a tier10 CV:
The primal thrill of defending against a swarm of small enemies.
The thrill of outplaying an enemy.
The thrill of seeing a frustrated enemy aborting a strike after seeing new enemies pop up.
The satisfaction of destroying the bugger.
The satisfaction of seeing ribbons stack up.

If you're going to be subjective and biased about it, I could ask the same about what's fun about every other class.
What's fun about tier10 CAs? All you do is avoid BBs and group up to not be a prime target.
What's fun about tier10 DDs? All you do is avoid planes and radar, then maybe cap.
What's fun about tier10 BBs? All you do is avoid planes, and force CAs to stay far away.

You can apply all the biased logic you want to any argument to fit your subjective view if you want, that still doesn't make it objectively true.

 

1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Easy. World in Conflict.

 

Now let's talk about two actually successful RTSs still played competitively over 15 later, Starcraft an Warcraft 3.

The single most valuable combat unit for a Terran player is the Marine. There are units so crucial to victory that they define major strategy. Infact, I'm pretty sure I can list a few units that are simply discarded because they're just not valuable. They're fun counters, but they're not influencial.
Warcraft 3? Do tell how a human swordman has the same worth as the anti-mage hero counter unit. One is used in every match to gain map superiority, the other is built late game as a speciality unit, which is a bit more efficient then spamming a handful more swordmen. Can you tell me which one is more influencial?

 

 

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with having a game that has some units/classes which are less influencial.
If everyone matters equally, then no one matters and team cohesion crumbles. Having no precious unit/class to support and escort would just make everyone play for themselves.

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

The restriction on medium helicopters was, cuz they hardly had any other job but harrasing the heavy choppers aka the real Air.

 

Fair point on the arty, but I'm pretty sure medium helicopters were fairly capable against AT units as well, perfectly covering the weaknesses of heavy tanks, which in turn could easily deal with AA. Thus a combination of air and armor was, in my experience, the most effective composition only weak to infantry in cover, which in turn could easily be leveled by support abilities.

[ForlornSailor]

3 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with having a game that has some units/classes which are less influencial.
If everyone matters equally, then no one matters and team cohesion crumbles. Having no precious unit/class to support and escort would just make everyone play for themselves.

 

Well I think the point was rather, that balancing shouldnt make each and every class equaly usefull, ending in a potato-mash, rather the opposite. To make them outperform the other classes in some specific scenario, while beeing outperformed in yet another. Something like rock-paper-scissors, which is so often used as an example. Now, I admit, in World in Conflict f.e. this could be accomplished much easier than here (cuz every class pretty much had their own terrain, only support and armor would share open areas.

 

But I disagree that reaching something like this would make play everyone for themselves. Right now we have very very limited teamplay going on. There is only a handful of DDs that smoke the team, only a few CVs will spot DDs constantly f.e. eventho it is very benifical for the team and thus for themselves. Ive seen way more teamplay in World in Conflict (sorry, I have to refer to this game a lot to get my point across), public, cuz each roles were very different on one hand but could support each other on the other hand. Airplayer could f.e. use some of his points to get a transportchopper. Totaly useless for him, BUT he airlifted Infantry across to map to points, theyd never reach or couldnt reach that quick. That Infantry again hugly benefits the Air-player, eventho he appears weaker cuz he only has 4 instead of 5 combatunits. Or a supportplayer using repairtanks sticking to friendly tanks, constantly healing them - list goes on. We dont really have interaction between classes here. How about we take the Heal away from the BBs and give it to cruisers, so that they could heal the Team with a range. That should be fun. Oh Im going to be hated for saying this. Its not even a serious suggestion. But still funny if you think about it.

[Thracen]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

If all classes had the same potential influence then they should be replaceable by each other, yet that is obviously not the case.

I mean absolutely no offence by this, this is not the first time I have thought this, but are you perhaps not a native english speaker? There is a difference between role and influence, different roles in a team can have similar levels of influence on match outcome correct? DDs spot as part of their role BBs tank as part of their role why should a dds spotting be more important than a BBs tanking? The problem with CVS is their role is everyone else's role too.

 

CVS: Spot, counter dds, counter BBs and counter most cruisers, they are the best ships to decap, ignore terrain and are by far the most flexible ship due to their speed. They are the best at stacking DOT damage, they are the best are alpha strikes. They have the highest skill cap and the highest skill ceiling. A unicum CV player has no counter save any other unicum CV player, and that's only if they haven't gone for a strike package.

 

Oh and before you say this is the same for dds, no it is not, nor for any other ship. Unicums in other ships can get hunted, and suppressed and can be destroyed to stop their match influence. A CV is almost always the last ship on the team to die, and in terms of strike packages each set of planes must be completely deleted 3 times over? Can you imagine if a DD has 3 respawns?

 

They are too powerful, have too much influence and they have no active counter, CV planes cannot be hunted, they cannot be cornered or chased. CVs are immune to nearly every balancing mechanic in the game.

[El2aZeR]

59 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Well I think the point was rather, that balancing shouldnt make each and every class equaly usefull, ending in a potato-mash, rather the opposite. To make them outperform the other classes in some specific scenario, while beeing outperformed in yet another. Something like rock-paper-scissors, which is so often used as an example.

 

Which is precisely what WoWs is trying to achieve. CVs excel at scouting and dealing damage to isolated targets. DDs at contesting caps, harassment and concealment. Cruisers at general utility. BBs have armor and firepower (or should have, really, but nowadays they excel at almost everything). Naturally such a role distribution prevents the different classes from having even remotely the same potential influence, as some roles are naturally more powerful than others, yet is (or rather can be) perfectly balanced as a system, something that SOME people apparently do not understand. Or refuse to in order to further their own pitiful agenda.

 

59 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Right now we have very very limited teamplay going on.

 

Imo that is more because the game rewards individual play equally as much or even more than team-oriented play. For example, sitting in the back taking potshots and eventually constantly kiting away as a BB is equally or even more effective in garnering exp and credits as sailing to the front lines, pushing and tanking for your team. That's a problem you obviously don't have in, e.g., WiC, as there tiers don't exist, therefore winning is all there is and you should do your utmost to achieve victory, which in turn means working with your team.

In WoWs on the other hand losing is perfectly acceptable as long as you get a good amount of exp and credits while doing so, playing egoistically is usually the easiest, if not the most effective way to do so. There is little, if any at all, in the way of rewards when smoking up teammates or using radar for a target you yourself cannot shoot at. The vast majority of income comes from raw damage. That should, imo, change.

Let's take a look back at Battlefield. A player playing a Medic can easily top the scoreboard even if he has few kills and died numerous times, because healing, reviving and playing the objective is rewarded equally or even higher amount of points than simply playing for frags.

 

7 minutes ago, Thracen said:

There is a difference between role and influence, different roles in a team can have similar levels of influence on match outcome correct?

 

No.

Spotting or the ability to contest a cap will always be more valuable than raw damage dealing ability, for example.

 

7 minutes ago, Thracen said:

CVS: Spot, counter dds, counter BBs and counter most cruisers, they are the best ships to decap, ignore terrain and are by far the most flexible ship due to their speed. They are the best at stacking DOT damage, they are the best are alpha strikes. They have the highest skill cap and the highest skill ceiling. A unicum CV player has no counter save any other unicum CV player, and that's only if they haven't gone for a strike package.

 

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

If any one sentence denotes your inexperience, it is this one. Sure, a CV can stat pad all game by striking and killing all the camping scrubs. You know who that doesn't help, though? Your teammates, and therefore your ability to influence the match and win. The thought that you can use the entire map to strike is fundamentally flawed. Sure, a CV has the ability to do so, just like a BB has the ability to stay at 20km from its target and still shoot at it. It's still hilariously inefficient and cuts down severely on how many strikes you are capable of flying per match. The strike efficiency factor is far too low for you to ever consider flying around the entire map, risking your strike getting intercepted, just to kill the one guy camping at the border. It is why defensive play actually favors CV players, because they get the time they need to thoroughly plan out what targets to prosecute. Putting on pressure on the other hand fundamentally requires that a CV, like any other class, take action, because if he does not he and his team will likely lose the game. Hovering your planes to wait for a perfect opening simply isn't an option in that case.

As for positioning, using islands can easily prolong the amount of time planes have to spend in your AA or make a strike entirely unfeasible due to teammates covering your flank, severe risk of getting intercepted or because it would simply take too long (strike efficiency, remember?).

CVs easily become the most team-reliant class when the enemy has even a tiny amount of skill. You said it yourself, they have to wait until their teammates give them an opening or for the enemy to make a crippling mistake, not to mention they are entirely reliant on their teammates to contest and capture objectives.

No other class is as influential as a CV, that is true. No other class has to deal with their restrictions, either. Both factors are inevitably tied to each other, cutting down on one end means cutting down on the other as well. Would you perhaps prefer it if your AA could only shoot down a fixed one plane per minute in exchange for reduced squad sizes, thus giving a CV the chance to deal guaranteed damage no matter what you do like any other class? Didn't think so. It goes against the design philosophy of CVs anyway.

So before judging a class on hilariously flawed views then proceeding to write such bull-[edited] about it how about you go and play them yourself for a better picture?

 

I can only repeat myself, really.

[Thracen]

1 hour ago, Exocet6951 said:

Team Fortress 2? Yes do tell how an engineer with a teleport and area denying turret is as valuable as a scout, which has a hit and run role.
DoTA 2/LoL? Yes tell me how an entire branch of characters called carriesby all players, from newbies to pro players are equally valuable to initiators, which are only there for ease of team fight initiating. YOu can win without an initiator, but you can't win without a good carry character. Fundamentally unequal.
Battlefield series? yes tell me how a tank on a tank map contributes equally to victory as a sniper. Or a medic which revives and basically makes or breaks a push contributes equally to the class with LMGs who gives out ammo. 10/10 convinced

You mistake role for match influence, oh and there are entire strats based around winning dota games without carries, rat dota, and early fight lineups stop those carries from ever getting online. A tank is not a class, my initial point actually said these comparisons are stupid for these reasons, apples an oranges etc.

 

Also you mention medics, a class that only has value as part of a team, CVs can operate completely independent of a team often picked by unicums because they can win with a field full of potatoes in front of them. The CV is restricted below T6 to auto drops and in the higher tiers by there only ever being 1 in a match. CVs get +-0 in their match making. Why is this the case? IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO INFLUENTIAL for gods sake how is this not glaringly obvious. All these bloody rules to try and curtail their influence wargaming makes my point for me.  

[RamirezKurita]

5 minutes ago, Thracen said:

They are too powerful, have too much influence and they have no active counter, CV planes cannot be hunted, they cannot be cornered or chased. CVs are immune to nearly every balancing mechanic in the game.

 

If they are so very, very powerful, how come in team battles they were basically relegated to overglorified spotters past the potato levels? I never got to the top ranks in TB, but I heard that some teams were even starting to go carrierless as it allowed them to bring another cruiser along for extra firepower as the carriers couldn't do anything except spot.

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, Thracen said:

CVs can operate completely independent of a team

 

Which is why in competitive play CVs dominate everything.

Oh wait.

 

That CVs are restricted to one in higher tier matches has more to do with the performance issues dozens of planes in the air caused. Mirror MM on the other hand was a player requested feature. WG was actually perfectly willing to let it sit as is.

That CVs are restricted to auto-drops in low tiers is because WG dismissed all player feedback to glorify their own decision.

[Thracen]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

No.

Spotting or the ability to contest a cap will always be more valuable than raw damage dealing ability, for example.

 

This is wrong :S.There is a huge difference between role and influence. (As for your example, it couldn't be more subjective, for a start capping varies in value base on map mode, standard battle, domination, epicenter. Spotting varies based on weather conditions and all ships do damage in different ways to different targets oh and all ships have the ability to spot too?)

 

. 

 

Role: the function assumed or part played by a person or thing in a particular situation.

Influence:the capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behaviour of someone or something, or the effect itself.

 

How are they anything like the same? Can you please acknowledge this basic use of words?

 

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I can only repeat myself, really.

The CV as you said is the most influential class, I'm glad we have that agreed on. The CVs limitations are set at the match outcome by the MM, based on enemy team AA. The CV is the best positioned class to circumvent the AA by cherry picking targets. This is the biggest problem with balancing other than player skill because you have to balance at CV against it's weakest targets not it's strongest, which is simply will ignore. Imagine a dd that could fly over islands with the same speed of a torp bomber that you could not shoot at with your main guns, only secondaries. This is how CVs fight.

[ForlornSailor]

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Which is precisely what WoWs is trying to achieve. CVs excel at scouting and dealing damage to isolated targets. DDs at contesting caps, harassment and concealment. Cruisers at general utility. BBs should have armor and firepower, but nowadays they excel at almost everything, really. Naturally such a role distribution prevents the different classes from having even remotely the same potential influence, as some roles are naturally more powerful than others, yet is (or rather can be) perfectly balanced as a system, something that SOME people apparently do not understand. Or refuse to in order to further their own pitiful agenda.

 

Good point. Dont get me wrong - im not arguening against CVs. I think the problem is really the skill-gap that this class brings combined with the fact, there can only be 1 CV per game (we are talking hightier here anyway). Past 3 days ive had 5 rounds i think in t8+ with a huge skillgap obvious in the CV - sometimes for me, sometimes against me. Imagine there would only be 1 BB per side and one side gets a Border-hugger with HE only and the other the superunicum. We´d see equal threads to this one in the forums, im pretty sure.

 

Sometimes it can be very frustrating, ill add my experiance from 2 days ago. I was in Mahan, enemy team had a superunicum div of 3 with Shokaku. While our CV was busy breathing through his mouth trying not to suffocate, their CV kept atleast 1 squad over me for all the time. There is little to nothing you can do, especially when your teammates are so afraid, that theyd wish for additional line 11 on the map. In that moment I came to think: What if planes wouldnt spot torpedos? My last action of the round was a desperate torpedorun on Belfast & Kutuzov in smoke not even 5 km ahead of me - ofc they dodged cuz they saw the torps even before they hit the water. Those are the games that are broken cuz of CV-skill from minute 1.

[Thracen]

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

That CVs are restricted to one in higher tier matches has more to do with the performance issues dozens of planes in the air caused. Mirror MM on the other hand was a player requested feature. WG was actually perfectly willing to let it sit as is.

So you think a T7 CV vs a T9 CV would be fair?

 

13 minutes ago, RamirezKurita said:

If they are so very, very powerful, how come in team battles they were basically relegated to overglorified spotters past the potato levels? I never got to the top ranks in TB, but I heard that some teams were even starting to go carrierless as it allowed them to bring another cruiser along for extra firepower as the carriers couldn't do anything except spot.

Team battle like CBT are different beasts from the all random matches that make up the majority of the game. less players all practised together on voice communications does not equal a random battle. Come now the comparison is silly and certainly not what I'm discussing. Furthermore I would not dismiss spotting, if you've ever been an IJN dd with a empty bomber plane overhead you're realise just how stupidly powerful a CV is when 1/7 of it's power can remove a ship from the game without even having to hit it.

[ForlornSailor]

15 minutes ago, RamirezKurita said:

how come in team battles they were basically relegated to overglorified spotters past the potato levels? I never got to the top ranks in TB, but I heard that some teams were even starting to go carrierless as it allowed them to bring another cruiser along for extra firepower as the carriers couldn't do anything except spot.

 

11 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Which is why in competitive play CVs dominate everything.

 

I think competitive is on a total different page. There is teamplay involved to the max and there is a skilled CV-Player on the other side both are the best counters against a good CV.

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, Thracen said:

How are they anything like the same? Can you please acknowledge this basic use of words?

 

Different roles have different potential influence on a match depending on how the game is designed. A ship that takes the primary role as a spotter is not only a direct counter to one whose forte is concealment, but is massively more influential than, say, a ship whose primary role is to soak damage.

 

3 minutes ago, Thracen said:

So you think a T7 CV vs a T9 CV would be fair?

 

Hey, you are the one trying to paint a false picture, not me.

And for the record, I think in balance in this game in general would massively benefit from +/- 1 MM. Pit any class against itself with a two tier difference and it wouldn't be fair, not to mention hard to balance.

Was T7 CV vs T9 CV fair? Hardly, a T9 CV back then would've gotten smashed thanks to a little something called the Dogfighting Expert skill (which back then gave a hilarious 100% DPS bonus per tier, also strafing didn't exist). Langleys could win air fights against Midways easily thanks to it, but Midways retained their higher strike potential, so both sides had advantages and disadvantages. Ironically that made the tier difference in CVs much more bearable than in any other class.

 

3 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

I think competitive is on a total different page. There is teamplay involved to the max and there is a skilled CV-Player on the other side both are the best counters against a good CV.

 

Precisely, but even if the opposing CV was a total scrub a CV is rendered so ineffective that even for scouting, their supposed inherent ability, they have to sacrifice their limited resources. That goes to show that the amount of teamplay required to shut down just CV strikes isn't nearly as high and, in fact, quite simple and easy. Whether or not people use them is no longer something that concerns CVs.

[ForlornSailor]

16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Precisely, but even if the opposing CV was a total scrub a CV is rendered so ineffective that even for scouting, their supposed inherent ability, they have to sacrifice their limited resources. That goes to show that the amount of teamplay required to shut down just CV strikes isn't nearly as high and, in fact, quite simple and easy. Whether or not people use them is no longer something that concerns CVs.

 

Exactly. I agree, you dont need to pull magic or need rocketsciene to counter even a good CV - yet on public it doesnt happen. Another example shows that pretty good, happend to me also only a few days ago. Enemy had a 80%+ WR Hakuryu, we had a CV with something like 38% WR. So I knew crap was about to hit the fan. We had Missouri and Des Moines as best AA-Ships and I tried to tell them to stick together cuz of the CV thread. They didnt. Hakuryu first striked Missouri out of the game, next victim was Des Moines on the other side of the map. After that he could roam free.

[El2aZeR]

7 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Hakuryu first striked Missouri out of the game, next victim was Des Moines on the other side of the map. After that he could roam free.

 

Weird, last time I tried striking anything close to a DM even in my Haku my squads simply evaporated. Which is in line with my experience playing DM, really.

Perhaps he took hydro instead of DFAA, which is nowadays not even a bad choice. But forcing cruisers to make a choice between hydro and DFAA is imo wrong anyway. Forcing the utility class to limit itself is ridiculous, then again the problems with cruisers and AA go far deeper than that.

[ForlornSailor]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Weird, last time I tried striking anything close to a DM even in my Haku my squads simply evaporated. Which is in line with my experience playing DM, really.

 

Yep, it was crazy. I got the replay if u want to see it yourself I can get it up...

 

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Forcing cruisers to make a choice between hydro and DFAA is imo wrong anyway. Forcing the utility class to limit itself is ridiculous, then again the problems with cruisers and AA go far deeper than that.

 

Agree. I always try to go with the current meta. There are missions right now for CVs? go with DFAA. Loads of missions / weeklys for DDs or something with torpedos? Slap Hydro on. I dont see any reason either, that cruisers shouldbt have both. Especially with the current overpopulation of BBs, which put cruisers in a tight spot.

[El2aZeR]

5 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Yep, it was crazy. I got the replay if u want to see it yourself I can get it up...

 

Nah, I believe it. I feel like average player skill actually gets worse once you get past T7 and is especially bad at T10.