Team Kill Plea

[Cyclops_]

Please, Please can the penalty for team killing be changed.

 

I started a battle in my Belfast last night and before I could even fire a shot I was hit from behind by 4 torpedoes from a DD  on our team , that was it, I was sunk .

 

I had not even fired a shot when this happened, there was no apology, nothing .

 

Please, please, please can the  team killing be changed to that where you hit a team player and the damage that would have been caused is reflected back to you and no damage is done to the team player you hit, it would make people think before they launch torps etc.

 

As it was my game that was ruined last night and not his !!!, all he will get is a pink ship for a few games, that is no deterrant what so ever, come on WG sort this out please.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Lel in Belfast you've likely ruined countless games...

 

But yeah he'll be pink for awhile at least. WG need to bring back credits compensation and maybe even full flags and camo refunds too.

[Thracen]

yep agreed, however what's to stop someone jumping in front of torps because the game is going badly and wants his dragon flag back?

 

What's to stop divisions and clans doing the same. This is a less than simple problem.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

3 minutes ago, Thracen said:

yep agreed, however what's to stop someone jumping in front of torps because the game is going badly and wants his dragon flag back?

 

What's to stop divisions and clans doing the same. This is a less than simple problem.

I guess but I'd imagine the folks who abuse compensation are far less than the ones who TK from lack of skill or rage.

 

If there are abusers then simply increase the punishment for pink so the killers get massively reduced income or even bans. People would smarten up then.

 

I must admit if I'm team torped without any apology I'll let myself flood just to pink them. 200+ mil credits means I'd rather lump a no income game to teach someone a lesson.

[Egoleter]

2 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

I guess but I'd imagine the folks who abuse compensation are far less than the ones who TK from lack of skill or rage.

 

I wouldn't bet on it. People are way to often selfish like this.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Just now, Egoleter said:

 

I wouldn't bet on it. People are way to often selfish like this.

Well the 0 compensation model needs a bit of reform. Just tougher punishment for the killers would be good. Then the ones who do it on purpose are punished and the ones who do it by accident will be forced to learn.

[Aotearas]

Blatant teamkillers should simply get permanent banned. Anytime it's evident there was no ither intent than to teamkill, instant perma-ban!

 

If someone is just stupidly negligent and torps from second line or otherwise hits an ally but no clear intent to teamkill is obvious, 96 hours suspension for the first offence, two weeks suspension for the second time, two months for the third time and if he hasn't learned it by then, perma-ban!

 

If someone is stupidly negligent and damages allies, but doesn't kill them, same as above but with damage thresholds. Think a guy goes pink, 96 hours suspension ... second time he gets enough teamdamage, two weeks, then two months, then perma-ban!

 

In addition, if at any point it was ever without reasonable doubt that a person was deliberately teamkilling or griefing by causing teamdamage, identification characteritics will be saved in a database to cross reference with other existing and future accounts. If a teamkiller bought a premium ship with a credit card, the number gets logged. If ANY account uses the same card number to attempt a purchase: no sell, but have a perma-ban on the house!

[BeauNidl3]

It's a bit of a problem for sure.

I've had 2 games in 2 days ruined by people deliberately TKing each other. 1st was the only 2 DD's on our team getting into a shouting match in chat inside of 2 minutes from the start, then ramming each other repeatedly and finally torping each other... Game was a write off for the other 10 players as the idiots didn't even spot as they held their paddy fit behind an island.

Second was 2 T9 BB's arguing over something, with them shelling each other and other people catching overshoots, again it didn't end well.

 

I agree that a person TK'd should get their flags and consumables back, but that could have a max team damage done by them limit too. Yes there's potential for some exploitation, but since they actually gain nothing they didn't already have that's not a massive issue.

[BeauNidl3]

1 hour ago, Negativvv said:

Well the 0 compensation model needs a bit of reform. Just tougher punishment for the killers would be good. Then the ones who do it on purpose are punished and the ones who do it by accident will be forced to learn.

 

Maybe the compensation should be taken from the inventory of the guilty party 

[hgbn_dk]

3 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Blatant teamkillers should simply get permanent banned. Anytime it's evident there was no ither intent than to teamkill, instant perma-ban!

 

If someone is just stupidly negligent and torps from second line or otherwise hits an ally but no clear intent to teamkill is obvious, 96 hours suspension for the first offence, two weeks suspension for the second time, two months for the third time and if he hasn't learned it by then, perma-ban!

 

If someone is stupidly negligent and damages allies, but doesn't kill them, same as above but with damage thresholds. Think a guy goes pink, 96 hours suspension ... second time he gets enough teamdamage, two weeks, then two months, then perma-ban!

 

In addition, if at any point it was ever without reasonable doubt that a person was deliberately teamkilling or griefing by causing teamdamage, identification characteritics will be saved in a database to cross reference with other existing and future accounts. If a teamkiller bought a premium ship with a credit card, the number gets logged. If ANY account uses the same card number to attempt a purchase: no sell, but have a perma-ban on the house!

TK system actually works as intended if you actually took some time to check how the mechanic work..... extreme repeat offenders end up doing damage on themself only.. anybody can end end up pink by accident.. Been there clipped a top of a mast with a outgoing shell. did 83 hp of damage and sunk him.. turned pink for 5 or 6 matches...

[gekkehenkie50]

3 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Blatant teamkillers should simply get permanent banned. Anytime it's evident there was no ither intent than to teamkill, instant perma-ban!

 

If someone is just stupidly negligent and torps from second line or otherwise hits an ally but no clear intent to teamkill is obvious, 96 hours suspension for the first offence, two weeks suspension for the second time, two months for the third time and if he hasn't learned it by then, perma-ban!

 

If someone is stupidly negligent and damages allies, but doesn't kill them, same as above but with damage thresholds. Think a guy goes pink, 96 hours suspension ... second time he gets enough teamdamage, two weeks, then two months, then perma-ban!

 

In addition, if at any point it was ever without reasonable doubt that a person was deliberately teamkilling or griefing by causing teamdamage, identification characteritics will be saved in a database to cross reference with other existing and future accounts. If a teamkiller bought a premium ship with a credit card, the number gets logged. If ANY account uses the same card number to attempt a purchase: no sell, but have a perma-ban on the house!

Hmm, then id already be perma-banned tbh. I think every 500~ games (purely based on my own performance) I manage to get a dumb TK somehow, either purely my fault, or a mix of my fault and the guy who refused to listen to my warnings or something like that.

[Aotearas]

2 hours ago, hgbn_dk said:

TK system actually works as intended if you actually took some time to check how the mechanic work..... extreme repeat offenders end up doing damage on themself only.. anybody can end end up pink by accident.. Been there clipped a top of a mast with a outgoing shell. did 83 hp of damage and sunk him.. turned pink for 5 or 6 matches...

 

I know how the automated TK system works. I also know it has a ludicrously high threshold before it penalizes players (short of the instant pink condition upon sinking an ally) and that people can get pink a whole lot of times without getting banned.

I also know a handful players that I know for a fact deliberately TKed allies on multiple occasions, but are still playing. I know because I reported them myself with all the evidence necessary (screenshots and replay file), got told by WG support the automated system is adequate, only to see them ingame yet again, teamkilling with malicous glee, even boasting about it.

Automated systems with thresholds to account for unintended incidents can be easily exploited by simply staying off the radar in between killing sprees. If the systems logs a history the threshold might lower over time and eventually they may even get banned (which we don't even know if that is the case here, because WG doesn't publish a ban list of any sort one might crossreference), but that can take a looong time, which is entirely too long. Case in point, in one game a teamkiller managed to TK three (3!!!!!) allies before damage started being reflected on him. That is at the very least two allies too many! Truly, an effective automated system ...

 

 

And that is why support should not just brush report tickets aside referring to their automated system. The automated system can't detect intent. A human operator looking at the replay (or in many cases just the damn chatlog) can tell if the TK was an accident or intended. And if there was intent -> perma-ban!

 

 

 

If you want me to detail what I think would be a practical and effective system to manage teamkill reports, then I can do that. Have done so in fact already in another topic like this quite some time ago. Was mostly about how to manage a potentially massive amount of false flags and fastforward legitimate reports for faster processing by support operators. You can then judge that one if you want and tell me again how I don't understand the automated system or whatnot. But it's still going to be a zero-tolerance for deliberate griefers, because zero tolerance is what douchecanoes deserve!

[Butterdoll]

no, no.

Team killing it's a feature like detonation.

 

Seriously.

For two times now I got barges shooting at me, one of them full broadside I barely manage to survive that one, the second one I kindly reply with my torpedoes. done. no rage, no chat, no apologies received or asked. Just plain physics, for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction .

 

But in this case, perhaps, it was an accident, puff of smoke equals torpedoes incoming, a case of mistaken identity.  

 

 

[ThePopesHolyFinger]

6 hours ago, BeauNidl3 said:

 

Maybe the compensation should be taken from the inventory of the guilty party 

I was going to suggest the same thing. If there are no dierct replacements in their inventory, something of a similar value or credits to replace the flags and camo.

[Namolis]

2 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

no, no.

Team killing it's a feature like detonation.

 

Seriously.

For two times now I got barges shooting at me, one of them full broadside I barely manage to survive that one, the second one I kindly reply with my torpedoes. done. no rage, no chat, no apologies received or asked. Just plain physics, for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction .

 

But in this case, perhaps, it was an accident, puff of smoke equals torpedoes incoming, a case of mistaken identity.  

 

 

TK'ing prevents flooding a brawl with random and unaimed torpedoes. You need to consider where you hit, rather than just blindly spamming them.

[Admiral_noodle]

96 hour ban for first teamkill? I think if I got banned for even one hour from the game because of a TK I'd possibly rage quit the game or otherwise attempt to get money from WG. Like premium time. 96 hour suspension? You just can't do that. Not unless there is proof of breach of EULA and the rules. 

 

Stupidity still isnt a crime. 

 

Especially if people know that. "Hey dd,you fire your torps, I'm going to turn left". --> dd agreed and fires. "Hey dd. Enjoy your ban" *turns right into torps*

 

trolling that would be so easy. 

 

I've tk'd three times. Once was my fault entirely. Torped from too far back without checking where my friendly shima was. Second time was in with torps desperately trying to save a game. Told my low health BB not to ram over and over because I had the enemy BB at point blank range. Figured the guy was almost dead anyway so fired the torps. Sank enemy BB but friendly BB (who was obviously not listening or aware) blundered into them many seconds after my torps killed the guy who would have killed him. He didn't even try to dodge. 

 

Third time was weird. I was zoomed in exchanging fire with enemy. I was slowed to 1/4 speed. Did not spot the cruiser who proceeded to speed up and pass down my gun side at paint scraping range. Fired, he. Fire... his death. 

 

Ok ok so that's also my "fault" but seriously who would drive down the side of a firing battleship. 

 

So three offences... perma ban? I think not. 

[Ferry_25]

Oh here we go again. Look: those rats OP is mentioning are very rare. I've seen them like 2 or 3 times in my whole "carreer." The rest of the TK/ TD is accidental. Stupid mistakes perhaps but in fact never on purpose.

Because of that 0.0001% rat players now we have a draconic punishment system which overshot it's entire effect. I can remember the time where a pink player was being mocked at. Because it meant he/ she REALLY screwed up. Nowadays nobody's reacting anymore. Because most pinks propably had an accidental driveby shot while being TV-ing.

[Ulvesnutepostei]

A simple sorry would do for me ... when you get hit by 2 torps from a shima and sink 20 seconds later and the comment from the Shima captain is "use your eyes" i rest my case ... yes accidents happens but be man enough to be sorry about it!

[AnotherDuck]

I think it you teamkill a P2W Belfast you should get rewarded as if killing an enemy ship.

 

That aside, for unintentional team damage (including ambiguous intent), I think the current system is sufficient. None of that instant suspension bullcrap. Accidents happen. Deal with it.

 

For obviously intentional team damage, then we can go into suspension territory. I'd say something like one day suspension and one week pink (with all team damage is reflected, and each game with team damage increasing the time by one day). Second offense, one week suspension and one month pink. Third, one month suspension and permanently pink. Or just permanently pink at the second offense. That would still make it impossible to do any more team damage, so anything further is pointless.

[Aotearas]

5 hours ago, Admiral_noodle said:

Especially if people know that. "Hey dd,you fire your torps, I'm going to turn left". --> dd agreed and fires. "Hey dd. Enjoy your ban" *turns right into torps*

 

trolling that would be so easy. 

 

Why is everyone keeping on assuming an automated system? I'm talking about human oversight handling the reports. And if someone baits an ally into firing from second line and then drives into those, guess who support would punish for griefing ...

 

Let me be perfectly clear here, the automated system we have is utter shyte. It doesn't work at detecting deliberate teamkillers. WG needs human support operators to handle cases. People who can take a look at a replay, read the chat where the douchecanoe announces ("ima teamkill yo arse!"), then goes through with the teamkill, then gets flippin' perma-banned for severe violation of the game's ToS players conduct rules.

 

23 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Or just permanently pink at the second offense. That would still make it impossible to do any more team damage, so anything further is pointless.

 

Except many trolls would at that point just lose any sense of restraint and just kill themselves on reflected damage after shooting allies, which means one ship less on the team, which is the same end result as if they teamkilled someone else.

 

Players who deliberately do BS like that simply don't belong into the game, period.

[Admiral_noodle]

OK. I'll tell you that a manual system won't be implemented. Because it's not going to make WG any money for the cost of having someone do that work. 

 

Brutal but true. The team killing is such a small part of the game that it simply isn't worth putting in actual people you need to pay to sort through reports. 

[AnotherDuck]

1 hour ago, Aotearas said:

Except many trolls would at that point just lose any sense of restraint and just kill themselves on reflected damage after shooting allies, which means one ship less on the team, which is the same end result as if they teamkilled someone else.

 

And the same result as heading for the corner of the map, or AFKing (whether deliberately or losing connection), or otherwise not playing for the team in any of the many ways you can not contribute at all.

 

1 hour ago, Aotearas said:

Players who deliberately do BS like that simply don't belong into the game, period.

 

There might be legal reason to never permanently ban someone from playing the game, if they've paid money for it. I've heard where a company has gotten into trouble for that.

[Cyclops_]

3 hours ago, Ferry_25 said:

Oh here we go again. Look: those rats OP is mentioning are very rare. I've seen them like 2 or 3 times in my whole "carreer." The rest of the TK/ TD is accidental. Stupid mistakes perhaps but in fact never on purpose.

Because of that 0.0001% rat players now we have a draconic punishment system which overshot it's entire effect. I can remember the time where a pink player was being mocked at. Because it meant he/ she REALLY screwed up. Nowadays nobody's reacting anymore. Because most pinks propably had an accidental driveby shot while being TV-ing.

Wether accidental or deliberate, I would prefer to see the damaged caused reflected back at the person who dealt it, I dont want to see bans or anything like that, just reflect the damage back.

[Aotearas]

5 hours ago, Admiral_noodle said:

OK. I'll tell you that a manual system won't be implemented. Because it's not going to make WG any money for the cost of having someone do that work. 

 

Brutal but true. The team killing is such a small part of the game that it simply isn't worth putting in actual people you need to pay to sort through reports. 

 

I know that customer satisfaction isn't worth much and that WG would never invest any sizeable money into improving something that doesn't tangibly generate revenue. Doesn't mean I can't vent and call the system for what it is, not doing the job it needs to do, or say that jerkasses who rather ruin other people's games don't deserve playing it.

 

3 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

 

There might be legal reason to never permanently ban someone from playing the game, if they've paid money for it. I've heard where a company has gotten into trouble for that.

 

I seriously doubt that. If other games that people pay up front for can permanently ban people who violate their ToS and rules of ingame conduct (such as griefing, cheating, harrassing other players, etc. pp.), even go as far as crossban players across multiple titles that share the same banlist (for example a global ban in the Punkbuster anti-cheat service will also ban that player ID across any game Punkbuster supports), then I don't see how a free-to-play game is any different.

[philjd]

6 hours ago, Aotearas said:

 

Why is everyone keeping on assuming an automated system? I'm talking about human oversight handling the reports. And if someone baits an ally into firing from second line and then drives into those, guess who support would punish for griefing ...

 

Let me be perfectly clear here, the automated system we have is utter shyte. It doesn't work at detecting deliberate teamkillers. WG needs human support operators to handle cases. People who can take a look at a replay, read the chat where the douchecanoe announces ("ima teamkill yo arse!"), then goes through with the teamkill, then gets flippin' perma-banned for severe violation of the game's ToS players conduct rules.

 

 

Except many trolls would at that point just lose any sense of restraint and just kill themselves on reflected damage after shooting allies, which means one ship less on the team, which is the same end result as if they teamkilled someone else.

 

Players who deliberately do BS like that simply don't belong into the game, period.

I would be all in favour of replay reports to WG to support allegations of deliberate TK'ing - providing that there was a disincentive to sending in b/s reports, perhaps the same punishment handed out to deliberate TK'ers gets 'given' to those who send in false reports - would cut the crap out fairly quickly, although probably catching the odd innocent also.

4 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

There might be legal reason to never permanently ban someone from playing the game, if they've paid money for it. I've heard where a company has gotten into trouble for that.

My understanding is that unless there is a subscription/fee to play the game, the legal recourse stuff is fairly (extremely) limited. WG are F2P, so not much cover/protection for players.