CA(Heavy Cruiser) Rebalance Ideas

[Spectre__]

Hay , 

With the smoke changes , I finally got of my [edited]to write these ideas i've had for some time . 

Due to the current BB heavy meta , cruisers are having a hard time so it got me thinking what should be changed , God forbid nerf BB's ... haha not gonna happen  , therefor what can we do to make Cruisers more reliable ? 

Well what cruisers need ? 

1 More survivability . 

2 More utility ( on certain lines ) 

3 Some adjustments to the firepower of certain ships . 

 

Ok on the first point ,

I was thinking  all Heavy cruisers ( and light cruisers that DON'T POSSES SMOKE GENERATOR //edit looks like peeps miss this part ) STARTING from tier 5 should get a special Repair Party consumable . 

Why special ? well it should heal 1% of the total hp per second , with a duration of 20 seconds //(might as well increase the BB time from 28 to 30 secs only because i don't like it )  . 

Also make HP scaling between the tiers more linear , example :

-tier 10 cruisers should have 50000+ hp  // taking into account Des Moine but looking at Moskva's 65k i don't care go wild BUT minimum 50k .

-tier 9  45000 - 50000 +/- 1000 // Roon

-tier 8  40000 - 45000 +/- 1000 // Atago/Kutuzov - Printz Eugene .

-tier 7  35000 - 40000 +/- 1000 // Myoko 

-tier 6  30000 - 35000 +/- 1000 // Cleveland 

-tier 5  25000 - 30000 +/- 1000 // Furutaka

Lower i don't care ( don't play ) .

This should be similar to how BB HP scaling is : Kongo tr 5 havin 54k hp and GK tr 10 having 105k 

Almost forgot , adjusting the concealment for certain ships // preferably to not be outspotted by Battleships .

Looking at the tr 10's :

A 1km drop could work for : Moskva 18->17, Hidenburg 16->15, Henry IV 16.6->15.6 // didn't check everything will add later(Poi=maybe)

 

 

Now utility  ,

Was thinking about moving the hydroacoustic search consumable for the Japanese/German/French lines into the plane slot .

That's because a cruiser's " job " should be hunting DD's , while the Russian and American line have Radar in the plane slot the 3 mentioned above have nothing.

While yes I am shafting CV's by making DF available to every cruiser , in the current state of CV that's the least of their problems .

 

Third Point ,

Well this one is tricky but what caught my attention :

Reload:

-Hipper/Printz Eugene , 13s -> 10s , this is major but i think they need it + using same guns as Roon/Hidenburg . 

-Mogami 203's/Ibuki/Atago , 13s base reload , a bit too much maybe but i don't think it's excessive + all using same guns . //( Zao - 12 s )

-Pensacola/Indianapolis , 14s ( maybe 13s since no torps) + same guns .

// New Orleans 11s .

Range : // where do i start ...  

Should be a bit linear going up the tiers :

Tier 6 : Aoba 14.9->15.5, Cleveland 14.6->15.1, Leander 13.2->14.4

Tier 7 : Myoko 15.6->16.1 , Pensacola 15.7->16.6 

Tier 8 : Mogami/Atago 15.7(8)->16.8 , New Orelans 16.2->16.9,//Kutuzov 19.1->17.6

Tier 9-10 no range changes needed due to the 6th slot module .

 

Any ship not mentioned apart from hp/heal changes , from my perspective is fine , also i didn't touch on Light Crusiers ( RN CL's ) nor other classes of ships .

Note i didn't play some ships therefor i didn't draw any conclusions on them but any ideas you guys might provide should be helpful .

 

That should be it ( if i forgot something will edit ) 

// i use it to mark notes style which don't change the context or are of less importance

 

TLDR :

Give all tier 5+ cruisers heal if they don't have smoke ( from my perspective it should be Heal OR Smoke in the same slot ) , increase HP to be more linear , give more utility vs DD's for certain lines (ijn , german , french ) , Increase range,reload on certain ships ( mainly tr 8 cruisers ) .

 

// excuse my poor English because i'm not a native , also if this gets positive responses i might share some of my other ideas .

// Made some edits 

[rvfharrier]

Or simply lower the number of BBs in the battle. Problem solved.

 

Cruisers are generally, with the possible exception of non-premium tier 8s, fine the way they are now. They don't struggle because they're weak, far from it. They struggle because they're almost always outnumbered by BBs giving the impression that they're weak, when really it's simply an MM issue. Cap BBs in a battle to three so that we start seeing five or six cruisers in each battle, with a cap on radar ships introduced at the same time to avoid making life hell for DD players, and the BB heavy meta is gone overnight.

[Spectre__]

9 minutes ago, rvfharrier said:

Or simply lower the number of BBs in the battle. Problem solved.

 

Cruisers are generally, with the possible exception of non-premium tier 8s, fine the way they are now. They don't struggle because they're weak, far from it. They struggle because they're almost always outnumbered by BBs giving the impression that they're weak, when really it's simply an MM issue. Cap BBs in a battle to three so that we start seeing five or six cruisers in each battle, with a cap on radar ships introduced at the same time to avoid making life hell for DD players, and the BB heavy meta is gone overnight.

While that is an even better solution , for how long have we cried for a BB cap , lets see at least a year now , did something change ? nope we just see more and more BB's .

And not to be rude but do you really think WG will do the sensible thing and change BB's ? 

[DFens_666]

As the new lines usually seem to outperform the old ones, i think a buff for some ships would be in order, but be careful about buffing T8 ships too much, they can get T6/T7 MM then they would be as strong as the T10s playing against the T8.

 

FIrst of, all T8 cruisers should get a heal. I dont know about some "special"heal, but since some T8s have heal and some dont, i think it would be good if all would have one. Compair the NO, Hipper and Prinz Eugen against the others and that might be enough to get them on par. Prolly MK shouldnt get one tho

[lameoll]

i would like to see some range on the t8 cruisers tho. with T10 mm going on  and with the open maps. they can use it.

 

[mtm78]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

As the new lines usually seem to outperform the old ones, i think a buff for some ships would be in order, but be careful about buffing T8 ships too much, they can get T6/T7 MM then they would be as strong as the T10s playing against the T8.

 

FIrst of, all T8 cruisers should get a heal. I dont know about some "special"heal, but since some T8s have heal and some dont, i think it would be good if all would have one. Compair the NO, Hipper and Prinz Eugen against the others and that might be enough to get them on par. Prolly MK shouldnt get one tho

 

DansGame.... MK needs buff dah?

 

 

Tier 8 CA's should all get a heal yes, but not because 'some have one' it's ONE, with a clone, but still ONE. Ow, MK does NOT need a heal. It's performing well enough as is, if you buff something on that thing you need to nerf something else. 

 

edit: btw you realize MK isn't a CA so wouldn't fall under your proposal anyway? 155mm = CL   

[Ferry_25]

28 isn't an odd number. Even I know that...

[Thracen]

Guys, it's map design and spawning that are the right knobs to turn for this. The problem cruisers have is multiple battleships engaging from every flank at stupid ranges. Spawn them in smaller groups put more islands in the way to stop 22km support fire from map edges and spawns and you get yourself a ball game without any of the BB Babies even realising whats happend. Guess what, this stops smoke camping because of limited fire lines, and helps dds get good torps off. Obviously a maze is going to be a bit impractical/stupid but in terms of degrees a few more clicks in this direction could be great for everyone. Multiple small engagements with opportunities to break contact until you get forced from cover and die for cowardice. It could be really fun, let's face it this game is at it's best around the 9-12 minute mark, small focuses engagements around points and cover, build the maps and spawns so this time is from 6-12 minutes and we're in for a blast. 

[Affeks]

CAs should get heal

 

CLs have a more offensive consumable like Smoke/Torpedo Reload or if it doesn fit the national flavor it could have yet another utility

 

All cruisers should always have at least two Utilities available at once (Radar, Hydro, AA), with exception if the ship has Smoke which is so strong it counts as two consumable slots imo

For example New Orleans currently have Radar (Utility 1) and AA (Utility 2), but lacks heal (CA special feature).

Another example, except here there are no changes are necessary. Kutuzov has AA/hydro (utility 1) and Smoke (Utility 2 AND CL special feature)

For Hipper/Eugen/Yorck it would be Hydro/AA (utility 1), Catapult fighter (utility 2), Heal (CA special feature)

French Cruisers Would have Hydro/AA (Utility 1), Speed boost/Catapult Plane (utility 2), Heal (CA feature)

 

IJN CLs could have AA/Hydro (Utility 1), Catapult plane (utility 2), Torpedo reload (CL feature).

USN CLs could have AA (utility 1), Hydro (utility 2), Radar/catapult plane (CL Extra consumable)

 

 

Cruisers should be the KINGS of utility, the goto ships for defense against torps, planes or smokes.... currently though they are at most glass cannons.

 

What I described are basically tier 9-10 cruisers... I know but thats the whole point. At those tiers the cruisers at least have enough staying power to at least play more aggresively to use their consumables and utilites... Such a waste lower tiers are reduced to whatever they are now.

 

[Spectre__]

20 minutes ago, Ferry_25 said:

28 isn't an odd number. Even I know that...

Ahh yes that was silly of me , meant it in a manner that i don't like it 30 looks more fitting .

[Ferry_25]

lol. OC I knew that's what you meant. Felt like making a joke. (-;

[Exocet6951]

8 hours ago, Affeks said:

 

 

IJN CLs could have AA/Hydro (Utility 1), Catapult plane (utility 2), Torpedo reload (CL feature).

 

 

 

[Kitakami intensifies]

[ghostbuster_]

9 hours ago, Spectre__ said:

Hay , 

With the smoke changes , I finally got of my [edited]to write these ideas i've had for some time . 

Due to the current BB heavy meta , cruisers are having a hard time so it got me thinking what should be changed , God forbid nerf BB's ... haha not gonna happen  , therefor what can we do to make Cruisers more reliable ? 

Well what cruisers need ? 

1 More survivability . 

2 More utility ( on certain lines ) 

3 Some adjustments to the firepower of certain ships . 

 

Ok on the first point ,

I was thinking  all Heavy cruisers ( and light cruisers that DON'T POSSES SMOKE GENERATOR //edit looks like peeps miss this part ) STARTING from tier 5 should get a special Repair Party consumable . 

Why special ? well it should heal 1% of the total hp per second , with a duration of 20 seconds //(might as well increase the BB time from 28 to 30 secs only because i don't like it )  . 

Also make HP scaling between the tiers more linear , example :

-tier 10 cruisers should have 50000+ hp  // taking into account Des Moine but looking at Moskva's 65k i don't care go wild BUT minimum 50k .

-tier 9  45000 - 50000 +/- 1000 // Roon

-tier 8  40000 - 45000 +/- 1000 // Atago/Kutuzov - Printz Eugene .

-tier 7  35000 - 40000 +/- 1000 // Myoko 

-tier 6  30000 - 35000 +/- 1000 // Cleveland 

-tier 5  25000 - 30000 +/- 1000 // Furutaka

Lower i don't care ( don't play ) .

This should be similar to how BB HP scaling is : Kongo tr 5 havin 54k hp and GK tr 10 having 105k 

Almost forgot , adjusting the concealment for certain ships // preferably to not be outspotted by Battleships .

Looking at the tr 10's :

A 1km drop could work for : Moskva 18->17, Hidenburg 16->15, Henry IV 16.6->15.6 // didn't check everything will add later(Poi=maybe)

 

 

Now utility  ,

Was thinking about moving the hydroacoustic search consumable for the Japanese/German/French lines into the plane slot .

That's because a cruiser's " job " should be hunting DD's , while the Russian and American line have Radar in the plane slot the 3 mentioned above have nothing.

While yes I am shafting CV's by making DF available to every cruiser , in the current state of CV that's the least of their problems .

 

Third Point ,

Well this one is tricky but what caught my attention :

Reload:

-Hipper/Printz Eugene , 13s -> 10s , this is major but i think they need it + using same guns as Roon/Hidenburg . 

-Mogami 203's/Ibuki/Atago , 13s base reload , a bit too much maybe but i don't think it's excessive + all using same guns . //( Zao - 12 s )

-Pensacola/Indianapolis , 14s ( maybe 13s since no torps) + same guns .

// New Orleans 11s .

Range : // where do i start ...  

Should be a bit linear going up the tiers :

Tier 6 : Aoba 14.9->15.5, Cleveland 14.6->15.1, Leander 13.2->14.4

Tier 7 : Myoko 15.6->16.1 , Pensacola 15.7->16.6 

Tier 8 : Mogami/Atago 15.7(8)->16.8 , New Orelans 16.2->16.9,//Kutuzov 19.1->17.6

Tier 9-10 no range changes needed due to the 6th slot module .

 

Any ship not mentioned apart from hp/heal changes , from my perspective is fine , also i didn't touch on Light Crusiers ( RN CL's ) nor other classes of ships .

Note i didn't play some ships therefor i didn't draw any conclusions on them but any ideas you guys might provide should be helpful .

 

That should be it ( if i forgot something will edit ) 

// i use it to mark notes style which don't change the context or are of less importance

 

TLDR :

Give all tier 5+ cruisers heal, increase HP , give more utility vs DD's , Increase range,reload on certain ships .

// excuse my poor English because i'm not a native , also if this gets positive responses i might share some of my other ideas .

 I can tell you that tier 9 and tier 10 CAs exept Henry (didnt play it yet thats why i cant make any comment about it) definitely dont need any buff. They are strong enough.

IMO Atago is also very strong for its tier.

Chappy is very strong with IFHE.

Fiji and Belfast are amazing ships. Buffing them would make them OP as f.ck. (Belfast is already OP IMO.)

Myoko is also a good ship.

Cleveland, budyonny are really good ships too. I dont see any reason to buff them. 

Maybe one or two of them could use some buffs. But in general i dont think that CAs need to be buffed.

 

[mtm78]

2 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

But in general i dont thin that CAs need to be buffed.

 

I been saying the same but then I get jumped by people who say BB's need heavy nerfs to make them less popular. I rather they just limit BB's to 3 or maybe if it really HAS to be so, to 4 and not 5 per side. And make it a higher rule, so it's not overturned just because to many BB player keep in queue for minutes. 

 

They say BB's will only be stronger with more cruisers, but I don't agree. The issue is, cruisers can't angle against multiple battleships at once, or they are forced to the outer flanks so they always keep enemy at one side. If you lower battleship number cruisers are much more free to roam a bit and you get more dynamic battles. And no, battleships won't be even stronger, as more cruisers = more HE spam and as we can see from the RN BB HE spam, the more people spam HE the higher the combined effect of forcing DCP and then stacking permanent fires on battleships. Either way, I'd say I think balance would be pretty ok, and if not it's still useless to talk about it now as there is no proof. Limit BB's to lower number, and yes for all I care do the same with DD's ( as long as you're differentiating between gunboat and torpboat, I think Khaba is a cruiser not a DD ). Then gather performance stats for a month or so and then come tell me BB's still need heavy nerfs.

 

The fact that cruisers can work together to kill battleships is a big part of why there was a bit more teamwork in CBT as to now, now it's cruisers dodging 5 battleships aiming for them the moment they are spotted.

[Kazomir]

CAs dont need buffs apart from a couple of heals at tier 8 for survivability. (At least give them 1 charge ffs)  

 

Battleship concealment needs to be nerfed with their firing penalty being increased to 30 or 40 seconds.

[ShinGetsu]

I still find insanely stupid to lose 8000-10000 HP on my Saint Louis with 2 or 3 shells hitting me from a whole volley, while I'm angled at long range and kiting.

[Kazomir]

2 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

I still find insanely stupid to lose 8000-1000 HP on my Saint Louis with 2 or 3 shells hitting me from a whole volley, while I'm angled at long range and kiting.

 

And if it is Conqueror HE you also get a fire or two on top. 

[MonkyDLuffy]

As someone of you already posted it would be so easy to fix the crap out of the game with either bb limit restriction or put a heal on almost all of the Cruiser from low tier to tier 8. But WG really don't see a reason for it, despite of so many of their playerbase highly recommend it. That is the point I actually don't understand. They got supertester who tells them how to fix things and avoid the issues of new lines, but they constantly refuse to listen.

[salva_barbus]

I agree on the idea of giving heal to every heavy cruiser out there. Caliber equal or greater than 203mm? --> Heal.

 

In my opinion, heavy cruisers should be all about staying power. Let light cruisers be DPM monsters, dakka-dakka all they want, but be easily killed. I think it's a fair trade if heavy cruisers are able to withstand more punishment than their light counterparts. 

This would also go well if there is, at any time, an american cruiser line split. Move Pensacola to tier VI, add the Wichita, and suddenly I think the American CA line would make more sense.  Also, please add the St. Louis class, because the americans also should have their own Mogami for shits and giggles!

[Armorin]

Before the recent RN BB release, a typical low tier match would probably only have around 2 or 3 BB's. Now it is usually a full 5 BB's like the higher tiers.

The change in meta changed the survivability of the cruiser dramatically, and ofc the fun in playing the class.

So I think those who say the problem being the number of BB's may have a point. Unfortunately, it's a popular class line so perhaps other solutions than an MM limit is needed.

At least a DD is small enough and agile enough to turn around and kite away. The problem is, in a cruiser you are really hoping the enemy is a poor shot to be able to try the same.

A heal based solution is no answer if its impossible to retreat, and often damage may not be repairable anyway.

I don't know what the answer is, as a few of my thoughts would be in the opposite direction of where WG appear to have been heading over the years. It's not fun being BB food most of the time, so my inclination to spend any more money on their games is going down.

[cracktrackflak]

WG just need to re-label the RN BBs as heavy cruisers, then all the problems of game balance and team composition go away.....

 

[1MajorKoenig]

Glad we discuss the topic and I agree that the cruisers need some overhaul.

 

My preference would be to make outline distinct roles more - ie. give heavy cruisers harder punch and better survivability and reduce light cruisers detection, firing range and citadel (so more towards gun boat DD).

 

To summarize:

 

- IJN heavy cruisers: give heal (T5+), forward firing arc for their Torpedoes and more main battery range, reduce citadel size slightly 

 

- IJN light: reduce citadel size by a fair bit, reduce 155mm firing range, improve concealment

 

- USN heavy: keep AA and reduce AA globally on other lines by a large amount (especially BBs), reduce citadel size slightly, give heal

- USN light: reduce citadel size, improve AA (while globally nerfing AA), give heal

 

- Russian light: reduce firing range, increase concealment 

 

- RN light: remove smoke, reduce citadel size by large amount, improve concealment, keep heal

 

 

[aboomination]

16 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Glad we discuss the topic and I agree that the cruisers need some overhaul.

I disagree, cruisers are fine, imo...

[MonkyDLuffy]

13 minutes ago, aboomination said:

I disagree, cruisers are fine, imo...

than pls go and play some low tier games and get a new idea of what your fine is though...

High tier cruiser are pretty balanced, but almost everything below tier 9(kutu and so on is for sure an exception) are totally fucked right now, due to increased bb mm

[rvfharrier]

10 minutes ago, MonkyDLuffy said:

than pls go and play some low tier games and get a new idea of what your fine is though...

High tier cruiser are pretty balanced, but almost everything below tier 9(kutu and so on is for sure an exception) are totally fucked right now, due to increased bb mm

 

Kind of missing the point that a lot of people are making there. Cruisers are fine, at the lower tiers as well, but the 'increased bb mm' as you put it is the issue.