Lets discuss Hipper variants

[Affeks]

Sooo basically if I understand these ships

Hipper = Silver tier 8

Eugen = Gold tier 8

Blucher = Gold tier 7

Seydlitz = Gold tier 7-8 4x3 150mm cruiser? (Leaving the Carrier reconstruction out of this)

Lutzow = Gold Russian tier 8 with 150/203mm?

 

So basically the question here is:

can Blucher make a balanced tier 7 with soft nerfs?

Will Seydlitz with the originally planned 4x3 150mm work best in tier 7 or 8?

Is it okay to give Lutzow to the russians? and if so should it have the 150s or 203s or even have the option to choose between them?

 

Personally there is much hidden potential in the Hipper class, but WG wasted a good opertunity by making a Hipper clone. Here's hoping the rest of them will have more personality.

[VC381]

Yes, Blucher would work at T7, with Hipper A-hull HP and AA and probably a RoF nerf as well, other than that losing the T8 module slot is a fairly big nerf in itself.

 

Lutzow, yes T8 to Russians as Petropavlovsk with the 20cm as she already had some fitted when sold, doesn't make sense otherwise. Basically Eugen stats but maybe different shells for flavour.

 

Seydlitz, please no we don't need 12x150 in the German line. In fact, the biggest opportunity they missed with Seydlitz is not making her T9 instead of the completely fictional abomination that is Roon. 

[Affeks]

10 minutes ago, VC381 said:

Yes, Blucher would work at T7, with Hipper A-hull HP and AA and probably a RoF nerf as well, other than that losing the T8 module slot is a fairly big nerf in itself.

 

Lutzow, yes T8 to Russians as Petropavlovsk with the 20cm as she already had some fitted when sold, doesn't make sense otherwise. Basically Eugen stats but maybe different shells for flavour.

 

Seydlitz, please no we don't need 12x150 in the German line. In fact, the biggest opportunity they missed with Seydlitz is not making her T9 instead of the completely fictional abomination that is Roon. 

Blucher also had only 2x3 torp launchers afaik. Meaning everything you mentioned and losing torps it may work perfectly as tier 7

 

With the 203mms already fitted to Lutzow it would make sense it had them ingame. Also I would love if we could see Russian 37mms and 100mm on it isntead of the German ones for extra flavour. 

 

As for Seydlitz I see why we cant have a 4x3 150mm as a premium ship. I mean at tier 8 it would make perfect sense and it would at least be a big break from all the 8" guns on those high tier KM cruisers. I really love the german 150s, but I hate the ships they're a main armament on. 

 

[VC381]

I don't dislike the German 150mm gun, I just think the 12-gun setup feels distinctly un-German. I feel they're defined more by the finesse and quality of their gunnery (good traverse, RoF, arcs, penetration) than brute-force numbers. This is the flavour they carry in game for both cruisers and battleships (exceptions at T10 that I also dislike) and reflects their RL design philosophy where a lot of ships had smaller and/or fewer guns than direct foreign equivalents, making up in other areas.

 

From a pure playstyle point of view, the 4x3 has the potential to be something different, which is nice of course. But it might also cause rage because the captain would need to be skilled differently to the silver high tier cruisers so it wouldn't be an ideal trainer. And we don't really need more HE spam.

 

But I do agree that a different secondary and AA setup would definitely help set apart both Lutzow/PP and Seydlitz.

 

I think something like a 'Kreuzer M' would be a far better candidate for a premium German 150mm armed cruiser, albeit at a lower tier.

[Affeks]

32 minutes ago, VC381 said:

I don't dislike the German 150mm gun, I just think the 12-gun setup feels distinctly un-German. I feel they're defined more by the finesse and quality of their gunnery (good traverse, RoF, arcs, penetration) than brute-force numbers. This is the flavour they carry in game for both cruisers and battleships (exceptions at T10 that I also dislike) and reflects their RL design philosophy where a lot of ships had smaller and/or fewer guns than direct foreign equivalents, making up in other areas.

 

This is why I hate GK and Hburg...

32 minutes ago, VC381 said:

 

From a pure playstyle point of view, the 4x3 has the potential to be something different, which is nice of course. But it might also cause rage because the captain would need to be skilled differently to the silver high tier cruisers so it wouldn't be an ideal trainer. And we don't really need more HE spam.

 

I dont think captain retraining is needed. Since KM cruisers get 1/4 HE pen rule you dont really need IFHE or anything else compared to a normal KM cruiser. I know since i use the same cpt for Nberg and Prinz

 

33 minutes ago, VC381 said:

 

But I do agree that a different secondary and AA setup would definitely help set apart both Lutzow/PP and Seydlitz.

 

 I was thinking maybe the 100mm DPs you see on stock Chapa/Dimitri and 37mm V-11s and 25mm 2M-3s. They would mean that Lutzow has worse long range, but slightly better short/mid range AA. Afaik Seydlitz and Lutzow were heavier than the others, meaning more HP. From my calculations Lutzow will have closer to 50k HP. Meaning it will need soft nerfs here and there. AA is one of them, and the other could be removal of one triple torp mount for example.

[Trainspite]

16 hours ago, Affeks said:

Sooo basically if I understand these ships

Hipper = Silver tier 8

Eugen = Gold tier 8

Blucher = Gold tier 7

Seydlitz = Gold tier 7-8 4x3 150mm cruiser? (Leaving the Carrier reconstruction out of this)

Lutzow = Gold Russian tier 8 with 150/203mm?

 

So basically the question here is:

can Blucher make a balanced tier 7 with soft nerfs?

Will Seydlitz with the originally planned 4x3 150mm work best in tier 7 or 8?

Is it okay to give Lutzow to the russians? and if so should it have the 150s or 203s or even have the option to choose between them?

 

Personally there is much hidden potential in the Hipper class, but WG wasted a good opertunity by making a Hipper clone. Here's hoping the rest of them will have more personality.

 

I don't really see the point in Blucher being nerfed to be tier 7. She could easily be balanced there, but it does exaggerate power creep again, and if Eugen exists, there is not much point to Blucher. There is also SMS Blucher to consider. 

 

As for Seydlitz, you could just use the name Lutzow, or a different name of a German city to denote the uncompleted 12x 5.9" being a CL. Using Seydlitz blocks out the famous BC which would be a popular tier 4 premium. Lutzow could be used as a premium tier 4 (Stock Derfflinger) as well, but is less likely than Seydlitz. The 12x 5.9" would be a good tier 8 premium, or tier 8 regular if you fancy a 2 ship mini branch from Nurnberg. 

 

You could easily just make a clone or slightly differentiated Hipper or Eugen, call it Petropavlovsk or Tallinn, and stick it in as a tier 8 premium. That would be perfectly acceptable. The same will probably happen for other ships like Cesare, gaining a Russian premium counterpart at some point. 

[Karl_567]

The ship-name "Lützow" was also used for a sister-ship of "Graf Spee" (ingame gold-ship). "Lützow" started as "Panzerschiff Deutschland", was later renamed to "Lützow". Just to make the confusion perfect.

 

During WW2 "Blücher", "Eugen" (ingame gold-ship) and "Hipper" (ingame silver-ship) were all sister-ships, putting them on different tiers makes no sense.

 

Greetings.

 

Karl

[Affeks]

2 hours ago, Karl_567 said:

The ship-name "Lützow" was also used for a sister-ship of "Graf Spee" (ingame gold-ship). "Lützow" started as "Panzerschiff Deutschland", was later renamed to "Lützow". Just to make the confusion perfect.

 

During WW2 "Blücher", "Eugen" (ingame gold-ship) and "Hipper" (ingame silver-ship) were all sister-ships, putting them on different tiers makes no sense.

 

Greetings.

 

Karl

Sister ships have been placed at different tiers before and WILL happen again. I just think the amount of premium german Cruisers are somewhat limited and pushing Blucher down to tier 7 with stock Hipper AA, Slightly reduced RoF, two less torpedo mounts and tier 7 cruiser armor would make perfect sense from a gameplay point of view to get as much variety as possible.

 

4 hours ago, Trainspite said:

 

I don't really see the point in Blucher being nerfed to be tier 7. She could easily be balanced there, but it does exaggerate power creep again, and if Eugen exists, there is not much point to Blucher. There is also SMS Blucher to consider. 

 

As for Seydlitz, you could just use the name Lutzow, or a different name of a German city to denote the uncompleted 12x 5.9" being a CL. Using Seydlitz blocks out the famous BC which would be a popular tier 4 premium. Lutzow could be used as a premium tier 4 (Stock Derfflinger) as well, but is less likely than Seydlitz. The 12x 5.9" would be a good tier 8 premium, or tier 8 regular if you fancy a 2 ship mini branch from Nurnberg. 

 

You could easily just make a clone or slightly differentiated Hipper or Eugen, call it Petropavlovsk or Tallinn, and stick it in as a tier 8 premium. That would be perfectly acceptable. The same will probably happen for other ships like Cesare, gaining a Russian premium counterpart at some point. 

I have been thinking about the KM problem of reusing names, and it seems it will be a pain in the [edited]going forward.

Tbh though I dont think Blucher at tier 7 wouldn't necessarily push a power creep. I mean we already got ships like Myoko down there which is in many ways the exact same ship as Ibuki at tier 9 except of course it lacks the tier 8 and tier 9 modules which makes all the difference in the world. 

 

In Seydlitz's case I wouldn't mind if they saved the name for another ship... But what I'm really wondering about is whether Seydlitz would have used the Nurnbergs 150mms or another version. If so we could end up seing a very fast 5-6 second reload cycle.

 

As for Lutzow I think it will only appear as a Russian tier 8 premium under Petropavlovsk or Tallinn. No reason to force it into both nations when we already have Eugen and Hipper (and Blucher) there.

[Karl_567]

1 hour ago, Affeks said:

Sister ships have been placed at different tiers before and WILL happen again. I just think the amount of premium german Cruisers are somewhat limited and pushing Blucher down to tier 7 with stock Hipper AA, Slightly reduced RoF, two less torpedo mounts and tier 7 cruiser armor would make perfect sense from a gameplay point of view to get as much variety as possible.

 

I am missing that, at least with the lines I have played. Which examples do you have?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Karl

[Affeks]

44 minutes ago, Karl_567 said:

 

I am missing that, at least with the lines I have played. Which examples do you have?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Karl

Mutsu is Nagato's sister ship, but placed as a premium one tier down.

Also plans for a stock Amagi as a tier 7 premium are also in place. 

 

October Revolution is a sister ship to Imperetor Nikolai, but a tier higher. 

 

Ibuki was just a repeat of Mogami, so not technically a sister ship, but so similar only soft stats and tier 9 module really makes the difference. 

 

A part of the community also wants a stock Kongo at tier 4 as well as Kongo's sister ship with late WW2 refit as a premium tier 6.

 

Monarch and KGV is the exact same ship, just with different guns.

 

Konig Albert is a sister ship to Kaiser afaik.

 

 

The list goes on and on and I'm sure there are tons more, if not in game at least waiting to happen.

[VC381]

1 hour ago, Karl_567 said:

 

I am missing that, at least with the lines I have played. Which examples do you have?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Karl

 

Kaiser T4 - Konig Albert premium T3

Nagato T7 - Mutsu premium T6

Kirov T5 - Molotov premium T6

Edinburgh T8 - Belfast premium T7

Fletcher T9 - rumoured T8 premium sister

Amagi T8 - Ashitaka (rumoured) premium T7

 

EDIT: since we're doing this:

 

Furutaka/Aoba - sisters by design, half-sisters because of modifications in construction

Fubuki/Akatsuki - some differences but usually all three groups of "Special Type" DD are considered the "Fubuki class" together

Mogami/Ibuki - repeat design, minor improvements

Kagero/Yugumo - arguably also repeat design, minor changes

 

When the sisters are quite different or (more usually) when they represent the class at a completely different point in time with different strength, it can be done. Blucher can fit this kind of difference in an early war condition (vs. Hipper and Eugen late war).

[1MajorKoenig]

1 minute ago, VC381 said:

 

Kaiser T4 - Konig Albert premium T3

Nagato T7 - Mutsu premium T6

Kirov T5 - Molotov premium T6

Edinburgh T8 - Belfast premium T7

Fletcher T9 - rumoured T8 premium sister

 

Might be more, can't remember exactly.

 

When the sisters are quite different or (more usually) when they represent the class at a completely different point in time with different strength, it can be done. Blucher can fit this kind of difference in an early war condition (vs. Hipper and Eugen late war).

 

NO! Don't waste another great name on another totally unremarkable Kriegsmarine ship please!!! Blucher is the last Armored cruiser!

[VC381]

35 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

NO! Don't waste another great name on another totally unremarkable Kriegsmarine ship please!!! Blucher is the last Armored cruiser!

 

It's a struggle enough getting dreadnoughts into the game, I doubt we will ever see that Blucher and even if they are thinking it she's almost impossible to balance with the way low tiers are set up. Don't get me wrong, I don't desperately WANT a T7 Blucher CA, I'm just saying it's viable.

[Affeks]

56 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

NO! Don't waste another great name on another totally unremarkable Kriegsmarine ship please!!! Blucher is the last Armored cruiser!

Viable argument, but personally I have no interest in more premium armored cruisers that offer nothing but repetitive, slow, point and clicky sealclubbing.

 

Tier 7 Blucher > Tier 3 Blucher

Any day

[Affeks]

Okay wait nvm, SMS Blucher would fit better as a tier 4-5 Cruiser and would prove to be quite interesting compared to most armored cruisers ingame.

 

I still hope WG will find a way to include multitple ships with the same name. I really wish names will not stop great gameplay opportunities from appearing in the game.

[Karl_567]

Thanks for clarification. I do not / did not have most of the examples, so may be excused. I have "King Albert", but never had "Kaiser".

 

From my point of view I am with 1MajorKoenig: Forget WW2-"Blücher". First ride in occupation of Norway, gunned down and sunk by some very few and outdated old canons near Oslo. Tragic story, but not worth making a premium-ship from.

 

Sincerely

 

Karl

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, VC381 said:

 

It's a struggle enough getting dreadnoughts into the game, I doubt we will ever see that Blucher and even if they are thinking it she's almost impossible to balance with the way low tiers are set up. Don't get me wrong, I don't desperately WANT a T7 Blucher CA, I'm just saying it's viable.

 

Hard to balance? Why? T3 Premium battleship.

 

The difficulty to balance armored cruisers in general is their mixed armament - pretty much the Mikasa syndrome. Armored cruiser are essentially pre-dreadnought Battlecruisers. However SMS Blücher featured an all 21cm main battery in the traditional hexagonal arrangement (like Nassau and Kawachi). No problems to get her into the game at all. It is more a matter of "lack of focus" I would say. And honestly bringing another Hipper when the second one was already beyond lame - seriously?

[Affeks]

27 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

And honestly bringing another Hipper when the second one was already beyond lame - seriously?

This is hardly an argument to exclude a potential ship...

[1MajorKoenig]

17 minutes ago, Affeks said:

This is hardly an argument to exclude a potential ship...

 

Being interesting for a new ship (especially one you expect ppl to pay real money for) is not a valid point for you? Ok then we have indeed a fundamentally different view. But ok - np. 

[Affeks]

6 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Being interesting for a new ship (especially one you expect ppl to pay real money for) is not a valid point for you? Ok then we have indeed a fundamentally different view. But ok - np. 

What tiers ships are placed on will hugely make the experience different

Currently Hipper/Prinz are only really fun when You can play aggresively... That entails No <16" BBs on enemy team and no tier 10MM

THat usually doesnt happen, but in tier 7mm that might happen much more, therefore creating quite the different experience.

Also there are no saying WG will be as boring with Blucher as they were with Prinz. Maybe they change some other stuff around

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, Affeks said:

What tiers ships are placed on will hugely make the experience different

Currently Hipper/Prinz are only really fun when You can play aggresively... That entails No <16" BBs on enemy team and no tier 10MM

THat usually doesnt happen, but in tier 7mm that might happen much more, therefore creating quite the different experience.

Also there are no saying WG will be as boring with Blucher as they were with Prinz. Maybe they change some other stuff around

 

Ok but for me all these cheap copy paste gold ships artificially made "interesting/gimmicky" are absolute unnecessary - sorry. And having 5x a Hipper in game doesn't make much sense to me as long as you are not any kind of Hipper-fanatic. Especially as Hipper is a boring ship to begin with. It would like the 5 Marbleheads. 

 

Absolutely not my cup of tea and a cheap way to artificially expand a tree where there is none. A 15cm armed what if Version would be at least different but I don't like these 15cm cruiser on mid/high tier so I wouldn't be interested either.

 

Plus the fact that you'd burn names for pretty crappy ships which is the part I am opposing.

 

EDIT: don't get me wrong. Not saying it is not possible. I just don't see the point.

[Affeks]

3 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Ok but for me all these cheap copy paste gold ships artificially made "interesting/gimmicky" are absolute unnecessary - sorry. And having 5x a Hipper in game doesn't make much sense to me as long as you are not any kind of Hipper-fanatic. Especially as Hipper is a boring ship to begin with. It would like the 5 Marbleheads. 

 

Absolutely not my cup of tea and a cheap way to artificially expand a tree where there is none. A 15cm armed what if Version would be at least different but I don't like these 15cm cruiser on mid/high tier so I wouldn't be interested either.

 

Plus the fact that you'd burn names for pretty crappy ships which is the part I am opposing.

 

EDIT: don't get me wrong. Not saying it is not possible. I just don't see the point.

Personally from a gameplay perspective I dont see much difference between this and Mutsu/Nagato situation tbh.

[1MajorKoenig]

3 hours ago, Affeks said:

Personally from a gameplay perspective I dont see much difference between this and Mutsu/Nagato situation tbh.

 

Difference is about 20 years worth of progress.... Mutsu is an about 1925 Nagato, where the tree ship is the WW2 one. My preference would have been a 1920 Nagato though 

[ApesTogetherStronK]

Hipper herself needs some rebalancing along with Eugen as is.

Hipper needs better AP shell performance, she'd be fine if she had it, they might be the best damage shells in game for a CA, but they shatter and bounce very, very easily, far more so than the other nations. 

Eugen could keep old shells but be given radar, as this is what she is mostly known for. 

Blucher as an A Hull stat (but B Hull looks) with one less torp launcher a side works fine at tier 7, she doesn't need a RoF nerf though, don't forget that Myoko shares that tier with similar 203mm guns and 2 more of them. 

Seydlitz would be very interesting as an 4x2 150mm Cruiser at tier 7, so still 8 guns in total, but with a 5-6 second reload, half what her sisters have, the shells and ballistics would have to be significantly improved compared to the previous German CL guns however, and she would be better off with less health than a B hull Hipper, but more than an A Hull. Alternatively she can be a tier 6 after CV conversion.

Lutzow, or Petropavlovsk, can do one of two things, she can be a clone Hipper with Russian shells and secondaries/torps, or she can be a 3x2 Hipper with soft buffs in other areas, again she would be a Soviet ship though. 

[Affeks]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Difference is about 20 years worth of progress.... Mutsu is an about 1925 Nagato, where the tree ship is the WW2 one. My preference would have been a 1920 Nagato though 

Exactly why I said "From a gamplay perspective" and not "From a historical perspective"...