The damage potential of HE and RN BB's

[walter3kurtz]

Let's look at the facts.

 

1. The HE characteristics throughout the line are incredible. The tier 4 Orion has better HE than the tier 10 Montana (5,900 vs. 5,700 alpha, 40% vs. 36% fire chance).

2. The RN BB's dominate tier 7 and up for average damage. In lower tiers they trail infamously OP ships like Nikolai and Albert.

3. All this damage is being done with ships that for the most part have no particular tanking skills, some are regarded as very vulnerable (take KGV and Nelson - still they outperform some tier 7's by up to 50% in damage and up to 7% in winrate)

 

Something is seriously out of whack. Even if we would accept that the average damage done by these ships doubles some of the competition, you have to consider that the HE-playstyle removes a lot of skill from the equation. Angles don't matter, ammo choice and aim don't matter, you just press "1" at the start of the battle.  To top it off it works excellent against DD's and CA's/CL's.

 

I'm not someone to come onto forums and cry OP, nerf this or buff that, but I can't see how WG think this is good design.

[creamgravy]

9-12 BB shells + good accuracy > ammo type.

[HyoukaYukikaze]

*Edited

[Kenliero]

You don't have to press '1' in every battle. Just once, when you play your first game with the ship.

[WolfGewehr]

Too much..   sorry, I mean

 

 

Not enough vodka @ balanz department I guess.

 

 

 

Can they make it even more brainless?

 

Spoiler

Yes they can, just hope they won't do it...

 

Well, I'll grab my Orion and watch the world burn 

[walter3kurtz]

51 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

9-12 BB shells + good accuracy > ammo type.

 

Nice opinion you have there. But the stats don't agree. Also any competent streamer (Flamu, Flambass to name a few) tried to make Brit AP work but couldn't. Using HE damage goes through the roof.

 

It's not just that RN BB's perform better using HE, they also outperform other lines with normal AP.

[Panocek]

10 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

 

Nice opinion you have there. But the stats don't agree. Also any competent streamer (Flamu, Flambass to name a few) tried to make Brit AP work but couldn't. Using HE damage goes through the roof.

 

It's not just that RN BB's perform better using HE, they also outperform other lines with normal AP.

Its not so much case of "AP sucks" as HE is effortless. Why bother with proper aiming and tracking target angle, if you can simply click them for more consistent damage + stack some dot on them.

[Unintentional_submarine]

I'm sad to report that, the joke that has been thrown out quite a few times, that WG will 'nerf' this by nerfing fire in general, is in fact already being proposed by some people.

 

People make the joke because it is a stupid solution, and yet other people see it as the right way to do it. Like say changing Fire Prevention to 2 fire spots instead of 3, expecting people to take that over CE (completely ignoring that people will just pick both). I must say when I read that, I lost faith in the playerbase. I only expected such a proposition in jest, to read it being seriously suggested was disheartening in it's shortsightedness.

[wilkatis_LV]

2 hours ago, walter3kurtz said:

2. The RN BB's dominate tier 7 and up for average damage. In lower tiers they trail infamously OP ships like Nikolai and Albert.

 

Just wait for potatoes to get to those tiers, I'd like to see you crying about the average stats then.

[ColonelPete]

2 hours ago, walter3kurtz said:

Let's look at the facts.

 

1. The HE characteristics throughout the line are incredible. The tier 4 Orion has better HE than the tier 10 Montana (5,900 vs. 5,700 alpha, 40% vs. 36% fire chance).

2. The RN BB's dominate tier 7 and up for average damage. In lower tiers they trail infamously OP ships like Nikolai and Albert.

3. All this damage is being done with ships that for the most part have no particular tanking skills, some are regarded as very vulnerable (take KGV and Nelson - still they outperform some tier 7's by up to 50% in damage and up to 7% in winrate)

 

Something is seriously out of whack. Even if we would accept that the average damage done by these ships doubles some of the competition, you have to consider that the HE-playstyle removes a lot of skill from the equation. Angles don't matter, ammo choice and aim don't matter, you just press "1" at the start of the battle.  To top it off it works excellent against DD's and CA's/CL's.

 

I'm not someone to come onto forums and cry OP, nerf this or buff that, but I can't see how WG think this is good design.

I think it is better to compare WR and kills/battle as HE based damage tends to be higher. But HE damage and fire are easily repaired, therefore not showing the true power of the ship.

[cro_pwr]

20 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I think it is better to compare WR and kills/battle as HE based damage tends to be higher. But HE damage and fire are easily repaired, therefore not showing the true power of the ship.

 

 

While I'm usually the one saying pretty much the same as you said now, especially when it comes to high tier games (150k damage in Zao burning 4 different BBs is useless damage if you ask me), in this case it just doesn't sum up as before. On t4/5 you have that broken Orion/Iron Duke thingies that will easily deal 6-7k HE salvos, + 2-3 fires per salvo every 30 seconds. Thats something that even Yamato can't handle properly, let alone t4-5 ships with 40-45k HP max, and most of them not having access to heal. I was in the games where I was scared to repair 2 fires because I knew that if I do that, in next salvo I could easily catch 3 of them, and trust me, especially on lower tiers when you constantly have 2-3 fires on someone, he dies pretty damn fast...

[ColonelPete]

Then we will see that in their WR and kills/battle.

[cro_pwr]

5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Then we will see that in their WR and kills/battle.

 

 

Feel free to check my stats with t5 BBs.
While I have only 8 battles in Duke, and its too small of a sample, I think you will see what I'm talking about.

[ColonelPete]

I wait for the EU mapleysrup stats. But I already know that they are probably too strong.

[rvfharrier]

3 hours ago, walter3kurtz said:

2. The RN BB's dominate tier 7 and up for average damage. In lower tiers they trail infamously OP ships like Nikolai and Albert.

 

I am certainly no fan of the implementation of RN BBs, in fact I absolutey hate the fact that WG have released an HE spamming BB line, but the stats for them are pretty unreliable right now and will be for some time. There are simply too few people playing the high tiers for any sort of reliability to seep through yet.

 

Doesn't change the point that, regardless of their average damage, they're frankly destroying game play.

[cro_pwr]

15 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I wait for the EU mapleysrup stats. But I already know that they are probably too strong.

 

My biggest issue with them is that WG once again effectively removed all the skill from the game.
While you can use AP to get good results on broadside targets (just had 120k damage game using AP only), you don't have to. HE is just too effective, and there is no reason for you to switch ammo, or to choose targets. Angled BB? No problems. Angled cruiser? No problems. Broadside cruiser? Citadels with HE all day long, coupled with few fires, broken engines, guns, rudders, you name it, they break it...

Try to play against them? Same story. You can angle, you can wiggle, you can do whatever you want, they don't care. They will deal a good consistent amount of damage increased by LOTS of fire no matter what you do and how much you angle against them. And I'm not talking about 1k damage salvos here. They are doing more damage per salvo then I was doing with Fuso in last ranked season against angled BBs.

Its just freaking lame...

Oh, and if that isn't enough, you can go full lame mode and bring 2 of them in a division. Watch the world burn. Just focus the closest target with 2 Iron Dukes, and watch them melt whatever they do... (PS. you have 12.5 km concealment, just in case all of that wasn't enough).

[Aragathor]

I took my Svetlana out for a spin, 3 min into the game two Orions deleted my angled ship with HE. No skill, no luck, just RN BB. What's the point of playing this game again?

Saw the Indianapolis in the shop, decided not to support WG.

 

Have a score screenshot of the game, notice anything?

 

[walter3kurtz]

For the people arguing that it's too early to judge stats, just look at the HE alpha and fire chance. It's the primary argument. t's simply better than AP .

 

Also what @cro_pwr said, if you're not outright destroying your targets you are breaking everything on their ship. That's a hidden variable that counts towards the damage potential just as much.

[LethalFrag]

I`m a simple man. I see  Mongqueror in my game spam HE, i report. 7 a day, every day until WG balance that crap.

That line is just straight up retarded, Underwater cit, best concealment of any BB in the game ,superheal and HE spam.Sounds balanced right? 

I dont mind CC and CA spaming HE cause they are at least squishy but the RN BB are in no way squishy and it´s unlikely u can just punish them sailing full broadside to your ship. So i keep report them until WG balance them.

[WolfGewehr]

35 minutes ago, LethalFrag said:

I`m a simple man. I see  Mongqueror in my game spam HE, i report. 7 a day, every day until WG balance that crap.

That line is just straight up retarded, Underwater cit, best concealment of any BB in the game ,superheal and HE spam.Sounds balanced right? 

I dont mind CC and CA spaming HE cause they are at least squishy but the RN BB are in no way squishy and it´s unlikely u can just punish them sailing full broadside to your ship. So i keep report them until WG balance them.

 

 

 

By reporting you just punish the players, and playing ships WG has introduced into game is not a reason for a report.

 

I agree that HE on RN BB line is retarded, but try to find a better way to send your message to WG.

[ShinGetsu]

58 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

For the people arguing that it's too early to judge stats, just look at the HE alpha and fire chance. It's the primary argument. t's simply better than AP .

 

Also what @cro_pwr said, if you're not outright destroying your targets you are breaking everything on their ship. That's a hidden variable that counts towards the damage potential just as much.

AP still works very well. And I take any day the ability to straight up delete any ship with AP over crippling them slowly. The first one have much better impact on the game.

 

It's just that HE spamming is effortless and doesn't take any skill to get decent results with when you get such high alpha damage. Doesn't change the fact AP works better in most situation in tier 8+.

[RamirezKurita]

3 hours ago, Unintentional_submarine said:

I'm sad to report that, the joke that has been thrown out quite a few times, that WG will 'nerf' this by nerfing fire in general, is in fact already being proposed by some people.

 

People make the joke because it is a stupid solution, and yet other people see it as the right way to do it. Like say changing Fire Prevention to 2 fire spots instead of 3, expecting people to take that over CE (completely ignoring that people will just pick both). I must say when I read that, I lost faith in the playerbase. I only expected such a proposition in jest, to read it being seriously suggested was disheartening in it's shortsightedness.

 

Unfortunately, due to the early release of HMS Nelson before any real balance work could be done on HE centric battleships, nerfing fire in general is the only possible solution as WG don't nerf premiums. If they nerf the normal RN battleships then we are still left with overpowered premiums that they won't touch, so the balance problem isn't fixed.

[LethalFrag]

The problem is most of the players who play this line are just happy [edited] that like the ship how it is and noobing around with it, so they are a part of the problem. And as i said i report He only spammer cause they have no interest in balance that ships ;) 

[WolfGewehr]

So playing the game with ships developers gave us is a reason to report?  To each their own I guess. As stupid as it is, shooting HE only with a BB is not against any rules and thus, not a real, moral reason to report.

 

 

Anyways, I rest my case.

[_VAMPA_]

On 9/4/2017 at 4:27 PM, walter3kurtz said:

Let's look at the facts.

 

1. The HE characteristics throughout the line are incredible. The tier 4 Orion has better HE than the tier 10 Montana (5,900 vs. 5,700 alpha, 40% vs. 36% fire chance).

2. The RN BB's dominate tier 7 and up for average damage. In lower tiers they trail infamously OP ships like Nikolai and Albert.

3. All this damage is being done with ships that for the most part have no particular tanking skills, some are regarded as very vulnerable (take KGV and Nelson - still they outperform some tier 7's by up to 50% in damage and up to 7% in winrate)

 

Something is seriously out of whack. Even if we would accept that the average damage done by these ships doubles some of the competition, you have to consider that the HE-playstyle removes a lot of skill from the equation. Angles don't matter, ammo choice and aim don't matter, you just press "1" at the start of the battle.  To top it off it works excellent against DD's and CA's/CL's.

 

I'm not someone to come onto forums and cry OP, nerf this or buff that, but I can't see how WG think this is good design.

i made few battles in Texas that T5 RN BB is just free dmg you even did not have to aim just Throw APs at his direction its ridiculous

 

HEshels of KGV really gives you some lolz...... Nagato first salvo 14k 1fire second salvo 8k 2fires...nagato disappears behind island = death nagato and arsonist...few minutes later Fiji  ~3k HP 1st salvo 6hits 0dmg.......second salvo 2-3-4hits 0 dmg.......for first time i loaded AP......nobteam "steal" my mine frag just before ap shells to land.......after that battle i decide to stop with the BS ........14battles of shame in absolute stock sheeep, no modules.......and trolish moode
 

On 9/4/2017 at 4:56 PM, HyoukaYukikaze said:

*Edited

*Edited freex is stronK, we need to fix incomes.......for 3rd quarter. .

...

On 9/4/2017 at 5:06 PM, Kenliero said:

You don't have to press '1' in every battle. Just once, when you play your first game with the ship.

nope, u dont have to press anything at all. when u purchase new boat and get in youre first battle  default ammo type is HE just pew pew pew with 1 hand

 

On 9/4/2017 at 5:12 PM, WolfGewehr said:

Too much..   sorry, I mean

 

 

Not enough vodka @ balanz department I guess.

 

 

 

Can they make it even more brainless?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes they can, just hope they won't do it...

 

Well, I'll grab my Orion and watch the world burn 

wrong department *Edited u mean accountants

 

On 9/4/2017 at 9:21 PM, WolfGewehr said:

 

 

 

By reporting you just punish the players, and playing ships WG has introduced into game is not a reason for a report.

 

I agree that HE on RN BB line is retarded, but try to find a better way to send your message to WG.

hihiihi he is doing nothing......except lowering his stress lvl a little 

On 9/4/2017 at 8:32 PM, walter3kurtz said:

For the people arguing that it's too early to judge stats, just look at the HE alpha and fire chance. It's the primary argument. t's simply better than AP .

 

Also what @cro_pwr said, if you're not outright destroying your targets you are breaking everything on their ship. That's a hidden variable that counts towards the damage potential just as much.

yup its too early, the line is not yet populated by the most *Edited out there, ive tried but get bored for 14battles

HE did not gives you 3 deletes in 70seconds...that AP is........