Premium ships V's Silver ships, P2W?

[philjd]

I was curious over how premium ships compared to silver ships, so indulged my curiosity via the Warships.today website - yes I know that that is not a '100% data inclusive' summary, but ought to be a reasonable approximation.

To say that the result surprised me, would be an understatement. Out of the top 30 ships by win rate, only 3 are silver ships and one of those has been withdrawn due to OP'ness (Kamikaze, T5 IJN DD) - https://eu.warships.today/vehicles

 

Now the Flint and Black, to a degree are to be expected, reward ships given out to consistently good players (yes it is possible to 'grind' the flint if you have the perseverance)..

Also of interest, is that all 7 of the USN CV's are in the bottom performing 19 ships (IJN CV's are in the upper top half).

Note that this is by win rate, so is not a universally accepted metric, but remains a reasonably decent measure.

 

I came here from WoT where the approach used to be 'premiums have training advantages and or credit credit grinding', but generally were worse than their same tier silver ships (when maxed). Have WG totally ditched this approach, or has it never been in place for WoWS. It would appear that it has never been in place and yes, you can buy the best ships (agreed that there is the odd exception).

[Lord_WC]

5 minutes ago, philjd said:

Also of interest, is that all 7 of the USN CV's are in the bottom performing 19 ships (IJN CV's are in the upper top half).

If that surprises you you probably shouldn't dabble in balancing.

[kfa]

It was never the case in wows, maybe in alpha-beta stage. A lot of premium ships are plain better than the silver ships.

Competitive play at T8 uses Atago, Kutuzov, Alabama, (used to use Tirpitz) and Lo Yang, but it is far worse in tier7, almost all premium ships are brokenly better than the normal ones.

[Fat_Maniac]

6 minutes ago, philjd said:

I was curious over how premium ships compared to silver ships, so indulged my curiosity via the Warships.today website - yes I know that that is not a '100% data inclusive' summary, but ought to be a reasonable approximation.

To say that the result surprised me, would be an understatement. Out of the top 30 ships by win rate, only 3 are silver ships and one of those has been withdrawn due to OP'ness (Kamikaze, T5 IJN DD) - https://eu.warships.today/vehicles

 

Now the Flint and Black, to a degree are to be expected, reward ships given out to consistently good players (yes it is possible to 'grind' the flint if you have the perseverance)..

Also of interest, is that all 7 of the USN CV's are in the bottom performing 19 ships (IJN CV's are in the upper top half).

Note that this is by win rate, so is not a universally accepted metric, but remains a reasonably decent measure.

 

I came here from WoT where the approach used to be 'premiums have training advantages and or credit credit grinding', but generally were worse than their same tier silver ships (when maxed). Have WG totally ditched this approach, or has it never been in place for WoWS. It would appear that it has never been in place and yes, you can buy the best ships (agreed that there is the odd exception).

The reason I've seen quoted by WG premiums apparent better stats, is that it's better players investing in the game,  you normal potato doesnt usually buy a prem, except for the iconic ones, Tirpitz for example, and lovingly nicknamed Derpitz for obvious reasons.

 

[philjd]

15 minutes ago, Lord_WC said:

If that surprises you you probably shouldn't dabble in balancing.

That didn't surprise me, although how far down did - and I play CV's far too little to even contemplate participating in 'balancing' them, never mind trying to get them to work as intended.

[philjd]

forum burp.

[ASharpPencil]

You haven't seen latest trend in WOT?

OP premium tank, to keep the income rolling?

 

It started with the Berlin trio...

[mtm78]

No. 

 

It's not pay2win, as even baddies in a Belfast are still baddies. But, it certainly feels like pay4advantages if premium ships are straight up better as their tech tree counterparts. Gremmy / old Gnevny, Leningrad / Minsk, Arizona / New Mexico. Harder to make that claim with Belfast since it's tech tree counterpart is also the strongest CL tier for tier in the game, but Belfast is specialized in winning games by ganking destroyers with radar equal to concealment... and yes that's just broken, ESPECIALLY on a ship with smoke. 

 

And yeah USN CV's vs IJN CV's is a long lasting 'issue' for WG. Not sure they will ever get things done right. 

[allufewig]

1 minute ago, ASharpPencil said:

You haven't seen latest trend in WOT?

OP premium tank, to keep the income rolling?

 

It started with the Berlin trio...

 

It started far earlier with SU-122-44, E-25, PZ2J... but you could argue these were accidents.

 

To my knowledge WG never officially abondoned their "Worse than an elite vehicle, but better than..." policy. Berlin-Trio just marked the point where it became apparent to everyone that they de-facto switched to a pay4advantage model.

[Ferry_25]

Yay!!! I just found out I'm an "iconic potato!" You made my whole day Fat Maniac!

 

Seeing the list though it's is apparant the top is being dominated by premium ships. IMO there's a lot of bias there. First I wouldn't draw conclusions with less than 100k battles on a ship. Given that: Black and Flint are ships earned by (most) people who at least have a vague understandig how to play this game. Getting to R1 as a no brainer could be possible if one would spend 20 hours a day playing non stop I guess. But I'd say that's a major Filter. Second: people tempt to play thier premiums more frequent than the Silver ships (captain training, income assurance). So they adapt better to it. Third: premiums are "immune" to direct nerfs unlike the Silvers. They get nerfed, buffed, nerfed and buffed nearly every update. Giving me the feeling I never get acquinted with them. I think this effect is being shown with Kamikaze (R)/ Fujin and Minekaze. The differences between those ships aren't that horrificaly different. IMO the players make up the difference. If I polish my sealclub and throw in my Shima 19pointer in Kamikaze I'll have a huge captain and player exp advantage over the player who is grinding the IJN DD line in his Minekaze.

Earlier I opened a thread why a ship is being considered OP. never got a clear answer other than "oh, it has too big a winrate" or "I find it broken." F.e. Impregnator. A serious debate isn't possibe... "It's OP, because it's OP, because that's my opnion so it's a fact." is the best agrument I could get. Now playing it I've seen how "OP" it is when facing the TLC of a CV, a DD who is happliy sailing circles around me and calmly waiting for his torps to reload. Nor would I be foolish enough to give BS to a Kaiser or a Wyoming player who knows what he's doing... The popular citadel drum is happily playing in my ears in those cases. Strong ship? Very much granted. OP? Not for me.

[mtm78]

3 minutes ago, allufewig said:

It started far earlier with SU-122-44, E-25, PZ2J... but you could argue these were accidents.

 

Check, check, check. Ow, you weren't asking who bought those exact premiums  ( though then again, I also have a Lowe and a I think every Matilda variant in the game ( two of which are premium ). 

 

Edit:

 

Imperator is OP because it has 12 forward firing gun's at a tier where people normally aren't really experienced and therefore they don't plan ahead as well. With the turret config and turret firing angles you're almost TOLD how to angle your ship effectively. It is a quite easy to play ship. It also doesn't feel as derpy as most other tier 4 BB's ( reasonable stable grouping on the shells ). 

 

[RAHJAILARI]

25 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

The reason I've seen quoted by WG premiums apparent better stats, is that it's better players investing in the game,  you normal potato doesnt usually buy a prem, except for the iconic ones, Tirpitz for example, and lovingly nicknamed Derpitz for obvious reasons.

eEHHEHEHEH! I might die laughing here... They really claimed that?

 

Strange then that oftentimes one sees premium players, who have no apparent clue as to how to play WoWs at all. I distinctly remember the times, when having 2 or more Tirpizes or Atagos in your team used to mean immediate and humiliating defeat (they got better now, but there are others).

 

Now, if I was a complete potatohead (and I'm not saying I ain't) with unlimited access my daddy's wallet, a premium account AND a Premium Ship (as OP as I could possibly manage) would be the first things on my purchasing list...

 

Just saying...

[Jethro_Grey]

50 minutes ago, philjd said:

I was curious over how premium ships compared to silver ships, so indulged my curiosity via the Warships.today website - yes I know that that is not a '100% data inclusive' summary, but ought to be a reasonable approximation.

To say that the result surprised me, would be an understatement. Out of the top 30 ships by win rate, only 3 are silver ships and one of those has been withdrawn due to OP'ness (Kamikaze, T5 IJN DD) - https://eu.warships.today/vehicles

 

Now the Flint and Black, to a degree are to be expected, reward ships given out to consistently good players (yes it is possible to 'grind' the flint if you have the perseverance)..

Also of interest, is that all 7 of the USN CV's are in the bottom performing 19 ships (IJN CV's are in the upper top half).

Note that this is by win rate, so is not a universally accepted metric, but remains a reasonably decent measure.

 

I came here from WoT where the approach used to be 'premiums have training advantages and or credit credit grinding', but generally were worse than their same tier silver ships (when maxed). Have WG totally ditched this approach, or has it never been in place for WoWS. It would appear that it has never been in place and yes, you can buy the best ships (agreed that there is the odd exception).

 

No p2w anywhere in WoWS.

Wargaming never said that premium ships have to be weaker then silver ships, people carry that nonsense over from WoT (where its obsolete as well and a relic from the past).

 

Not every premium ship is OP though, exceptions are the Kamikaze trio ( after the Minekaze has been nerfed), Kutuzov, Belfast and Krasny Krim ( when its top tier), k. Albert as well as Gremmy an Imperator Nikolai. Some of these ships aren't available anymore, while K. Albert is being pulled from store.

 

With the release of the RN BB line, the cards have been newly dealt as the entire line is OP as f@ck to a point where the TX is so broken it boggles the mind how that was considered release worthy.

We can safely say now, the most OP ships are f2p, and you can get them for free simply by grinding.

[Seeigel]

One big advantage of a premium ship is you can put every captain of that nation on it. Dont underestimate the value of a high point captain.

No retraining, no new leveling.

[allufewig]

19 minutes ago, Jethro_Grey said:

 

Not every premium ship is OP though, exceptions are the Kamikaze trio ( after the Minekaze has been nerfed), Kutuzov, Belfast and Krasny Krim ( when its top tier), k. Albert as well as Gremmy an Imperator Nikolai. Some of these ships aren't available anymore, while K. Albert is being pulled from store.

 

 

Arizona is a New Mexico with massively improved sigma (the main selling point) and some more armor and health at the cost of a little bit of AA.

Texas is a New York with better turret firing angles and a colossal load of AA (the main selling point) at the cost of a tiny 0,5kn speed.

Yo Lang is a Benson with two viable torp options and a ridiculously overbuffed hydro (the main selling point) at the cost of having just the Bensons B-Hull.

Leningrad is Minsk with a bit better concealment and useable 8km-torps instead of 4km ones (the main selling point) at the cost of a bit of gunrange.

Missouri is an Iowa with better armor and a Radar (the main selling point) at the cost of nothing.

Murmansk is a C-Omaha with better pen, AA and torpedoes at the cost of nothing.

 

Some do not have such a close f2p counterpart, but you get the balancing idea of premiums. You do get a bit more power for opening your wallet. OP or gamebreaking? Usually not, but pay4advantage? Hard to deny.

[Fat_Maniac]

1 hour ago, RAHJAILARI said:

eEHHEHEHEH! I might die laughing here... They really claimed that?

 

Strange then that oftentimes one sees premium players, who have no apparent clue as to how to play WoWs at all. I distinctly remember the times, when having 2 or more Tirpizes or Atagos in your team used to mean immediate and humiliating defeat (they got better now, but there are others).

 

Now, if I was a complete potatohead (and I'm not saying I ain't) with unlimited access my daddy's wallet, a premium account AND a Premium Ship (as OP as I could possibly manage) would be the first things on my purchasing list...

 

Just saying...

Don't disagree with you, buying a premium is quicker than grinding the silver ships to get to a tier, and I'd be wrong to say I havent been tempted to do just that, go out and buy a premium T8 and go play with the big boys so to speak.

 

But whats the point, I don't have the experience or skill to play at that level, I'd just be a burden to my team and I wouldn't learn anything except how to die quickly, get crap scores, and be on the receiving end of some choice and colourful comments in chat.  

 

Saying that I do have Warspite and Belfast in my port, but I bought them whilst they were on sale. Only when I think I hold my own in T6 and T7 will I take them out in Randoms.

[RAHJAILARI]

Now that's a good lad... You should be awarded one free premium just for that attitude. Hehehe!

[daki]

OP it pretty much depends on what you consider "Pay to Win".

If you define it as "unfair advantage over a silver ship which cannot be compensated by higher skill", then no, there are no P2W premiums in WoWs.

 

However, it is clear that some of them do give a certain advantage, so I tend to agree with @Mtm78 about "pay2advantage".

That being said there are still a lot of premiums that are average at best and plain crap at worst.

[Tubit101]

People will obviously have different definitions of the term "pay to win", so let's not bother discussing the semantics. I think it's obvious that most people mean "pay for advantages" when they say "pay to win". They're not referring to some magic button that wins you games when you press it. We don't need to subdivide into "pay for advantage" or whatever. That's just putting lipstick on the pig.

 

In my opinion WG has gone too far with making premium ships OP (inb4-disclaimer: no not all premium ships, of course, let's not even go there because that would be silly). I think WG is being much too short sighted. They are dragging this game into the mud just to make a quick buck. It's their prerogative of course, but I like the concept of this game and it's sad to see the negative development in action.

 

P2W ships inevitably contributes a great deal to the existing powercreep problem. The general norm now is that a lot of people expect premiums to be overpowered, and they complain when they're not. That is a bad trend for gaming in general and it leads to WG having to come up with new and more ridiculous gimmicks each time they release new ships.

[ColonelPete]

2 hours ago, philjd said:

I was curious over how premium ships compared to silver ships, so indulged my curiosity via the Warships.today website - yes I know that that is not a '100% data inclusive' summary, but ought to be a reasonable approximation.

To say that the result surprised me, would be an understatement. Out of the top 30 ships by win rate, only 3 are silver ships and one of those has been withdrawn due to OP'ness (Kamikaze, T5 IJN DD) - https://eu.warships.today/vehicles

 

Now the Flint and Black, to a degree are to be expected, reward ships given out to consistently good players (yes it is possible to 'grind' the flint if you have the perseverance)..

Also of interest, is that all 7 of the USN CV's are in the bottom performing 19 ships (IJN CV's are in the upper top half).

Note that this is by win rate, so is not a universally accepted metric, but remains a reasonably decent measure.

 

I came here from WoT where the approach used to be 'premiums have training advantages and or credit credit grinding', but generally were worse than their same tier silver ships (when maxed). Have WG totally ditched this approach, or has it never been in place for WoWS. It would appear that it has never been in place and yes, you can buy the best ships (agreed that there is the odd exception).

You cannot compare that value.

Even premiums that are copies of silver ships had better WRs in the past.

The players of these ships have different abilities than then average silver ship player.

 

Warship	Tier	Type	Nation	Battles	Win rate	Avg. frags	Avg. damage	Avg. experience	Avg. planes destroyed	Kills / deaths
Kongo	5	Battleship	Japan	4 590 012	50.04 %	0.71	33 604	888	1.09	1.47
ARP Kongō	5	Battleship	Japan	1 363 026	51.96 %	0.74	36 816	914	1.17	1.28
ARP Haruna	5	Battleship	Japan	920 569	51.5 %	0.72	35 533	898	1.17	1.18
ARP Hiei	5	Battleship	Japan	652 477	51.62 %	0.71	35 673	903	1.16	1.1
ARP Kirishima	5	Battleship	Japan	514 823	52.06 %	0.73	36 348	912	1.11	1.18

[allufewig]

5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You cannot compare that value.

Even premiums that are copies of silver ships had better WRs in the past.

The players of these ships have different abilities than then average silver ship player.

 

Kamikaze R was sort of a Shinonome. You only got it for some dedication in playing which usually meant better or more invested players.

 

The only true copypasta-ship available to everyone is Prinz Eugen, where they miraculously forgot to add some gimmick or better stats. Voila, same WR as Admiral Hipper. Magic.

 

@Tubit: I wish everyone understood. But sadly you cant call the stuff "p2w" without provoking the hordes of simpletons that will remind you that Belfast and the like miss a button for the instawin. Safe yourself the hassle and go with pay4advantage.

[jss78]

With some blatant exceptions (Belfast, Saipan, Nikolai) I don't think it's too bad in this game.

 

Like noted above the stats are a poor reference. The silver ships stats are mostly people grinding down the line, while in gold ships you have experienced players joy-riding in mid to low tiers with 19-pt captains.

 

Overall, I think power-creep is just hard to keep in check while keeping the player base happy. People always expect a new ship to be "good" though not OP. This seems fair enough, but when all new ships are better than MOST (doesn't even have to be ALL) old ships, you're in fact looking at power creep.

 

The uncomfortable reality is to keep power creep in check you'd have to release lots and lots of "mehbotes", and at most the occasional "gudbote". In the silver tree the occasional mehbote is accepted, but especially when trying to sell premiums, good luck with that.

[hgbn_dk]

eehhhh The ARP variants of the same ships in the silver line is exactly the same... They offer no premium abilities, other than that you can put the the commander of your choice in it without to have to retrain him/her.

Otherwise they are just reskinned fully upgraded silvr ships

[mtm78]

37 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You cannot compare that value.

Even premiums that are copies of silver ships had better WRs in the past.

The players of these ships have different abilities than then average silver ship player.

 

Warship	Tier	Type	Nation	Battles	Win rate	Avg. frags	Avg. damage	Avg. experience	Avg. planes destroyed	Kills / deaths
Kongo	5	Battleship	Japan	4 590 012	50.04 %	0.71	33 604	888	1.09	1.47
ARP Kongō	5	Battleship	Japan	1 363 026	51.96 %	0.74	36 816	914	1.17	1.28
ARP Haruna	5	Battleship	Japan	920 569	51.5 %	0.72	35 533	898	1.17	1.18
ARP Hiei	5	Battleship	Japan	652 477	51.62 %	0.71	35 673	903	1.16	1.1
ARP Kirishima	5	Battleship	Japan	514 823	52.06 %	0.73	36 348	912	1.11	1.18

 

My ARP Kongo's do so much better as my normal one, I am quite sure it's the nice captain's telling me 'must not fa...' ow wait, I mean they keep cheering me on   

[MeTaLMooSe]

50 minutes ago, allufewig said:

 

Kamikaze R was sort of a Shinonome. You only got it for some dedication in playing which usually meant better or more invested players.

 

The only true copypasta-ship available to everyone is Prinz Eugen, where they miraculously forgot to add some gimmick or better stats. Voila, same WR as Admiral Hipper. Magic.

 

@Tubit: I wish everyone understood. But sadly you cant call the stuff "p2w" without provoking the hordes of simpletons that will remind you that Belfast and the like miss a button for the instawin. Safe yourself the hassle and go with pay4advantage.

PE provides only the following premium perk:-

Premium camouflage provides 50% bonus Captain Training on top of normal bonuses.  A second camouflage option provides 10% bonus credit earning.

So it is a true premium training ship. Probably hence it's lack of popularity and the reason WG didn't persist with this sales model.......