Dunkerque slower than historically correct?

[Affeks]

Can we get Dunkerque's historical speed anytime soon? It kinda angers me when I see the 29.5 knots it has in WoWs as it took me less than a minute to find plenty a sources (other than Wiki ofc) stating that it reached beyond 30 knots many times. 

Looking at this we can see Dunkerque being able to reach 30 knots during an 8 hour trial, and more importantly reaching 31 knots when forcing beyond for 2 hours (way longer than any WoWs match ). 

It even reached close 29.4 knots while using only 88% of the 107k shp engine power listed in game. Heck even Strasbourg (heavier than Dunkerque) reached beyond 29.5 when not using all 107k of the shp listed in game. Seems to me Dunkerque would easily reach 30 knots with 107 000 shp.

I would personally like 31 knots, but 30 knots + spood beest would work too. Dunkerque isnt too strong at all so its not like this buff would tip the scales or anything.

 

I would really not like to wait untill French BBs arrive to get a Dunkerque buff.

(sauce: French Battleships 1922-1956)

[Affeks]

(PS: Buff accuracy while you're at it?)

[Philipp_ab_exterminatore]

Its really not much different :/

[Gnirf]

7 hours ago, Affeks said:

Can we get Dunkerque's historical speed anytime soon? It kinda angers me when I see the 29.5 knots it has in WoWs as it took me less than a minute to find plenty a sources (other than Wiki ofc) stating that it reached beyond 30 knots many times. 

Looking at this we can see Dunkerque being able to reach 30 knots during an 8 hour trial, and more importantly reaching 31 knots when forcing beyond for 2 hours (way longer than any WoWs match ). 

It even reached close 29.4 knots while using only 88% of the 107k shp engine power listed in game. Heck even Strasbourg (heavier than Dunkerque) reached beyond 29.5 when not using all 107k of the shp listed in game. Seems to me Dunkerque would easily reach 30 knots with 107 000 shp.

I would personally like 31 knots, but 30 knots + spood beest would work too. Dunkerque isnt weak at all so its not like this buff would tip the scales or anything.

 

I would really not like to wait untill French BBs arrive to get a Dunkerque buff.

(sauce: French Battleships 1922-1956)

Many ships with clean bottoms did better results on trial, if I remember correctly Yamato crossed the 28 kts mark, Shimakaze around 41 kts. So your case can be brought too many ships.

If there is any large problem it is the Russian bias with the many paperdesigns with ultra high speeds.

[RAHJAILARI]

On average it looks pretty 30 knot-ish to me all the way. 1 knot here or there does not seem to make any difference as she is not facing many fast battleships at her tier. Sierra Mike flags are there for that bit of extra speed. I usually put one on my Graf Spee just to get close to 30's, works wonderfully, you should try it.

[Exocet6951]

7 hours ago, DB2212 said:

Well, historically speaking, Dunkerque should be shown as beached or scuttled in Mers-el-Kébir or Toulon. Which would you prefer Affeks?

 

By that "fun" logic, Tirpitz should be seen as having a giant hole from a Tallboy and at the bottom of a Norwegian fjord, the Hood should be in pieces at the bottom of the sea, and the Yamato riddled with torpedo hits and bombs at the bottom of the sea after having done nothing all match, and most US super dreadnoughts on fire at Pearl Harbor.

Is that really a can of worms you want to open yet again with your jingoist bull**** ?

[bushwacker001]

And with a 5% speed flag on it goes faster than historical ship......slow it down WG. 

[Ryuuteimaru]

In trails they pushed the ships to the absolute maximum those results while in theory where possible they where never used in service as it put to much pressure on the machinery, they'd have to be refitted far to often.

 

Also it's game balance for example the Yamato in real life had a turning circle of around 650m in game it's 900m.

[Jethro_Grey]

48 minutes ago, Ryuuteimaru said:

In trails they pushed the ships to the absolute maximum those results while in theory where possible they where never used in service as it put to much pressure on the machinery, they'd have to be refitted far to often.

 

Also it's game balance for example the Yamato in real life had a turning circle of around 650m in game it's 900m.

 

Yep, exactly.

 

They increased the turning circles of most (all?) ships, the Atlanta, for instance, was able to do full speed turns on a dime, while her in game counterpart has a huge turning circle and is a sluggish boat.

[WolfGewehr]

4 hours ago, Gnirf said:

Many ships with clean bottoms did better results on trial, if I remember correctly Yamato crossed the 28 kts mark, Shimakaze around 41 kts. So your case can be brought too many ships.

If there is any large problem it is the Russian bias with the many paperdesigns with ultra high speeds.

 

Musashi did clock over 28kn, Yamato reached possibly 30kn according to info that was given to her crew. How plausible that info was, no idea.

[RAHJAILARI]

Hehe yeah. They never tell you the good stuff...

 

It is also rumored that when Yamato's first gun trials were being conducted a row of admiralty officials were standing on the main deck to observe the proceedings and when the guns fired, the pressure wave was so great that it ripped their uniforms clean off in addition to causing many permanent deafness and severe physical trauma (hair loss, flesh ripped off, burns etc fun stuff). For some reason this was not well publicized either.

 

Bet those guys felt a tad silly suddenly standing there bald and stone deaf in their diapers...

[puxflacet]

scharnhorst should be also 1,5 knot quicker

[Affeks]

2 hours ago, Ryuuteimaru said:

In trails they pushed the ships to the absolute maximum those results while in theory where possible they where never used in service as it put to much pressure on the machinery, they'd have to be refitted far to often.

Well not really, you see the its only one test here where they pushed the engine. Rest of the tests that reach over 30 knots are all at MAX POWER, not FORCING. Also why would they push on trials, but not during combat where survival/victory depends on it lmao

14 minutes ago, puxflacet said:

scharnhorst should be also 1,5 knot quicker

WG gave Gneisenau the 32 knot max speed since Scharnhorst is already overperforming. I own Scharnhorst and I dont mind the slower speed, it has way to many other strengths over Gneisenau already.

 

5 hours ago, Gnirf said:

Many ships with clean bottoms did better results on trial, if I remember correctly Yamato crossed the 28 kts mark, Shimakaze around 41 kts. So your case can be brought too many ships.

If there is any large problem it is the Russian bias with the many paperdesigns with ultra high speeds.

^This!!! I hate how WG give some strong ships the trial/overly optimistic trial speeds, but ships that are arguably weak sometimes keep the shitty lower speeds. I mean currently Dunkerque is outrun by Kongo, which after weight added by ww2 refits reached no more than 28-29 knots. If WG was a bit more consistent I wouldn't be this triggered.

[puxflacet]

15 minutes ago, Affeks said:

WG gave Gneisenau the 32 knot max speed since Scharnhorst is already overperforming. I own Scharnhorst and I dont mind the slower speed, it has way to many other strengths over Gneisenau already.

 

well i'm not arguing about that. i thought this thread is about historical speeds...

however its funny that gneisenau is faster while she would be a lot heavier. she has a  bit longer bow though but i doubt that would make her speed much higher

[philjd]

Trials speeds are also affected by water depth during the trials,so not necessarily a good guide to in game speed where the depth can vary tremendously. (not an expert, just something picked up over the years I have been a naval buff)

[Ryuuteimaru]

23 minutes ago, Affeks said:

Well not really, you see the its only one test here where they pushed the engine. Rest of the tests that reach over 30 knots are all at MAX POWER, not FORCING. Also why would they push on trials, but not during combat where survival/victory depends on it lmao

 

Yes they do "Force" them trials are just that trials to see how far they can push the ship to find faults etc, sea Trials are also carried out under unloaded condations without any ammo, fuel ETC.

 

Example Iowa class.

 

45k tonnes unloaded=35.2 knots

57k tonnes combat load=32.5 knots

[Affeks]

6 minutes ago, Ryuuteimaru said:

 

Yes they do "Force" them trials are just that trials to see how far they can push the ship to find faults etc, sea Trials are also carried out under unloaded condations without any ammo, fuel ETC.

 

Example Iowa class.

 

45k tonnes unloaded=35.2 knots

57k tonnes combat load=32.5 knots

Look at the trials listed pls, it clearly spesifies that the displacement during trials was above 30k tons while the unloaded displacement of Dunkerque is less than 27k. read pls it even spesifies which trials they force the engine and when they use max power, they are two different things. Dunkerque was designed with 107k shp while in many of these trials 30 knots are reached WITHOUT forcing. 

[Procrastes]

The bottom line in this and all other similar discussions, is that game balance must always trump historical accuracy.

The alternative would very quickly ruin the game.

[Affeks]

1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

The bottom line in this and all other similar discussions, is that game balance must always trump historical accuracy.

The alternative would very quickly ruin the game.

True enough, but doesnt change the fact that Dunkerque could use a loving touch from WG. So within the game balance having historical accuracy here would be anything but bad

[Procrastes]

2 minutes ago, Affeks said:

True enough, but doesnt change the fact that Dunkerque could use a loving touch from WG. So within the game balance having historical accuracy here would be anything but bad

 

It's funny you should say that, since I was just about to add this to my post above:

 

"Edited: In this individual case, it might of course be argued that Dunkerque could be given her historical speed, and still be well balanced. I don't really have an opinion on that, other than to say that statistics so far - from what I've heard, at least - show the little Dunk off as one of the best battleships battlecruisers of her tier."

 

In other words, Captain Affeks, you have a good point!

[Affeks]

5 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

 

It's funny you should say that, since I was just about to add this to my post above:

 

"Edited: In this individual case, it might of course be argued that Dunkerque could be given her historical speed, and still be well balanced. I don't really have an opinion on that, other than to say that statistics so far - from what I've heard, at least - show the little Dunk off as one of the best battleships battlecruisers of her tier."

I looked up the stats and it sure looks that way, but despite Dunkerque being one of my most played ships I find it underperforming very much compared to my other tier 6 BBs

 

Edit: personally I believe Dunkerque's good stats is because of the nature of the players that play her the most. While at the same time there are tons of beginners that play Fuso, NM and Bayern since they are silver ships.

[Procrastes]

8 minutes ago, Affeks said:

I looked up the stats and it sure looks that way, but despite Dunkerque being one of my most played ships I find it underperforming very much compared to my other tier 6 BBs

 

And that just goes to show that ship performance is really very much dependent on personal skill and playstyle. For example, I know that the Kutuzov is widely considered to be one of the best cruisers of her tier, but I keep struggling to do anything other than badly in her. I just don't seem to be able to play her to her strengths.

 

As for the Dunkerque, and while I am yet to have any kind of spectacular game in her, she's always fun to drive. Having those eight 330 mm rifles always lined up in the right direction is just so thrilling...

...until they are all lined up in the wrong direction, of course. Retreat is not an option. Could she perhaps be given an extra knot or two of speed in reverse, instead...? 

[Affeks]

1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

 

And that just goes to show that ship performance is really very much dependent on personal skill and playstyle. For example, I know that the Kutuzov is widely considered to be one of the best cruisers of her tier, but I keep struggling to do anything other than badly in her. I just don't seem to be able to play her to her strengths.

 

As for the Dunkerque, and while I am yet to have any kind of spectacular game in her, she's always fun to drive. Having those eight 330 mm rifles always lined up in the right direction is just so thrilling...

...until they are all lined up in the wrong direction, of course. Retreat is not an option!

While I agree that many ships have a playstyle that needs mastering (like Atlanta, took me 30-40 games before I got comfertable in it), it doesnt change the fact that I have almost 130 games in Dunkerque, giving it chance after chance feeling like I've mastered it 100 games ago. Despite all that it underperforms and when I look at the stats it doesnt really surprise me. The 330s just arent accurate enough to reliably punish enemies, AA so weak CV just waltz up to you, ship so large and unarmored any HE spam melts you, HP so low you cant stay under sustained fire for long yet the speed is just 3 knots faster than that of Mutsu that is way more accurate, has bigger guns, torps and a lot more HP. Speed is supposed to be its strength, but its currently outrun by all the competition, Kongos, Gneisenaus, Scharnhorsts and not to mention all the tier 8s you meet with all the tier 8 MM. 

 

Personally I love the all forward setup, but it isnt worth losing the accuracy and gun caliber over.

[WolfGewehr]

Well, I'm not one to judge, just wanted to share (again) the newish info on Yama's speed.

 

Last chapter on pic below

 

 

 

Source

[Procrastes]

7 minutes ago, Affeks said:

While I agree that many ships have a playstyle that needs mastering (like Atlanta, took me 30-40 games before I got comfertable in it), it doesnt change the fact that I have almost 130 games in Dunkerque, giving it chance after chance feeling like I've mastered it 100 games ago. Despite all that it underperforms and when I look at the stats it doesnt really surprise me. The 330s just arent accurate enough to reliably punish enemies, AA so weak CV just waltz up to you, ship so large and unarmored any HE spam melts you, HP so low you cant stay under sustained fire for long yet the speed is just 3 knots faster than that of Mutsu that is way more accurate, has bigger guns, torps and a lot more HP. Speed is supposed to be its strength, but its currently outrun by all the competition, Kongos, Gneisenaus, Scharnhorsts and not to mention all the tier 8s you meet with all the tier 8 MM. 

 

Personally I love the all forward setup, but it isnt worth losing the accuracy and gun caliber over.

 

As I said, you make a good case. I guess we will see if the First Baguette gets a speed boost in some coming update.

 

Say, maybe that's a thought - to give the Dunkerque access to the special French speed boost consumable? How do you think that might work out?